It has been discussed recently about the "kevin stage" and as Misty is approaching a year old, we are in full swing!!!

Anyway, training has been going ok but I actually find she is a lot better if I do not use food, treats or even a toy.    I find that as soon as food or anything is introduced she is only after that and couldn't give two hoots to what I am saying :D :D.  We have been practising the stay a lot lately and she has been really great but as soon as I use a treat, she is there crawling on her belly till she gets to me :rolleyes:.  As soon as I point back to where she should be, she will go back (really hyper) and sits again without me saying a word but she starts creeping again.  Is it ok to train without any of these things and just purely with praise and cuddles and should I praise her when she hasn't stayed but then on command, gone back to the original position again?  Or am I just chasing a lost cause and should accept the fact that it is the GR way or no way! ;) :D :D

I would imagine your onto a winner if you can train without a treat!
There is no set rule that you must use a treat far easier if she will work to just your command .
If you do want to use treats and she is crawling to you start from the basic and try returning to your dog on sit stays or down rather than calling her to you .
I went through a stage of this with one of my girls at that difficult age I was the only one who returned to my dog. This throws them a little in that they wait longer as they are not reading you.

If she'll work without treats, toys and so on - then I am very jealous of you :D you're a lucky owner!

If you do still need to motivate her, have a look into clicker training - you can leave the treats elsewhere out of sight once she understand that click = treat, then when she does what you want you can click to mark the behaviour and go and get a treat.  Because you mark it with a click, it doesn't matter if it takes a few seconds to get the reward - the clicker bridges the gap between behaviour and treat.  It can be helpful with dogs that are too focused on the treat to work - out of sight, out of mind (well, almost!)!

Ditto here, if praise and cuddles are enough, lucky you!  I did have one Lab bred from working lines like that but the terrier (what's in it for me, then?) ... no way!

Wonder if it was the way you were using the treats that caused the crawling back?  If you called your dog to you and rewarded it after the stay, then that's what the dog will want to do.  All the time the dog will want to come to you because that's where the reward is.  If instead you went back to your dog and gave it a treat whilst it was staying still, then that's what the dog would learn was rewarding.  After that you would release it from the stay, which is self-rewarding anyway.

I would expect crawling back if the dog has learned that it gets the treat when it runs to you, or if you had increased the length of the stay or the distance you were from the dog too quickly.

If what you are actually trying to train is for the dog to "wait" in position until called, then you have to keep the dog guessing by sometimes rewarding it for the recall and sometimes going back and rewarding it for sitting still, then releasing it.  If you always reward the dog for the recall part, then "waiting" just isn't worth it! :-)

I have just been doing the sit, stay, then me walking away a few steps (4/5 at most)then go back to her and praise/release if she stayed.  But as soon as I put a treat in my hand and start to back away, she'd go down and crawl or shuffle on her bum following me and would literally just follow my hand and nothing more.  I think she is just as happy when I don't use treats as she gets loads of cuddles and I get lots of slobbery kisses!! :D

I will have a look at clicker work to see if that makes a difference with treats as I really want to put more work into loose lead walking and she is definitely not interested in just praise then as there is more exciting things around like birds, cars and generally anything that dares move!  Would that help with this?

>But as soon as I put a treat in my hand and start to back away ...<

And there's the problem!  So don't have a treat in your hand when you back away.  Get the treat out when you get back to her.  Dogs are so smart, you gotta love 'em. :-)

Even without treats, the way I would look at it, is that there should be no "if she stayed."  I would stay near enough and keep it short enough to guarantee that she DID stay.  Otherwise, I'd know I'd gone too far for her current level of self-control.  Obviously, it isn't possible to always guess right, but good to err on the side of caution to try and ensure success.

It sounds as if cuddles are enough for the moment.  But, looking ahead, one day you will eventually want a stay in the presence of birds, cars and anything that dares move, won't you?  I'm currently teaching one of my dogs to "leave" a piece of food on the floor and come touch my hand instead.  However, my whole aim in teaching him this is that one day, I want him to do the same "leave" when there's a deer around and come touch my hand instead of chasing it.  The village hall/training venue is a good place to start but eventually you want the dog to obey you under any circumstances anywhere at any time.

Yes, I do think clicker training would help with the loose lead walking but if you aren't familiar with the principles, you may need someone to explain how it works before you have a go.

Good luck!

My honest view is that using toys and food is the best way to train in that, you can reach a higher standard (I believe) and remain humane as you can show the dog when you are not thrilled about something as you can remove the reward. If you don't use rewards, (food/toy etc) then at the end of the day, it is harder to show the dog what is required and not required.

If you are happy as you are, relax :)

I think probably you need help in showing the dog how to NOT grab the treats, but to work for the food (which needs to be used as a reward, not a lure at all...)

Once you get over that hurdle (and most who use food or toys have been there at some stage or another) using food and toys is much easier and works well :)

Example: if your dog breaks a wait or whatever to lunge for food, say "oops" and walk away and give NO food. The dog soon gets to understand :P
You could also try leaving  a pot with lid on near her instead of having it in your hand, but then there is a knack to getting the food out of the pot. Also, yo would need to use correct body language etc when rewarding, as it's too easy to move towards the dog and have the dog move towards your outstretched hand -keep the hand close to you and then move it towards the dog at the last minute :)

Lindsay
x

You don't necessarily need an actual clicker, but you can have great success here with clicker WORDS. Pick a word that you don't normally use for praise -I started using "Good" (always said in the same tone) and I still do but it also means I always have to think twice and NEVER say "Good dog" or similar in other situations as the dogs then think they've been clicked! But it can be any word that is short."Yes" is quite a useful one.

You start teaching the dog exactly in the same way as with a clicker, i.e. at first she has to learn what the word means. Say the word and give a treat. Repeat this several times, until she knows the word means a treat will appear. You can then start using it for training. Saying the word means the exercise is finished and a treat will appear soon, but not necessarily IMMEDIATELY . So there's not even any need to have the treat in your pocket, it can be sitting on a table or whatever. When I train my dogs in the kitchen and click them (i.e. for me that means saying GOOD) they immediately run towards the kitchen counter and stare at the tub of treats that is kept there as they know the word means they are  due one. :)

And yes, never have a treat in your hand when training stays, it must be hidden. You can however wait a few seconds, go back and quietly give a treat without saying anything DURING the stay, move away again etc etc, so that the dog learns that it is you coming BACK when they are not moving that produces the treat, nothing else.

I think you can train without treats.  All the training I've done with Copper has been only rewarded with a lot of praise from me.  If I have a treat in my hand he will sit, stand, run, swim, balance a fish on his nose just so he can get the treat.  But is that really training him?  He's only doing it for the snack.  Real training for me is to get him to obey commands all the time not just for food.  If this is working for you, stay with it :)

CG

But is that really training him?  He's only doing it for the snack.  Real training for me is to get him to obey commands all the time not just for food.

So WHAT reason do you WANT him to obey for? Because he HAS to? or because he ENJOYS doing it? The way to get a dog to enjoy it is to use treats for MOST dogs. You then gradually cut down on the number of times treats are used, and also when possible replace treats with something else fun such as a quick game of tug. In competitive obedience you are not allowed to carry treats or anything when you work in the ring, but the dog will get some form of a reward at the end of the round.

Edited to add: you wouldn't work a job yourself for no payment, it's the same for dogs -they are far more inclined to want to do it if the salary is good. You'd probably refuse to clean a public toilet for a fiver but may do it for £50. A dog will be much happier to do something for a nice really taste treat than for just verbal praise. (And I say this as someone who trained WITHOUT treats for about 10 years before switching over.)

>If I have a treat in my hand he will sit, stand, run, swim, balance a fish on his nose just so he can get the treat.  But is that really training him?<

Yes, that's training him to work if you have food in your hand. 

Been there, done it, learned my lesson :rolleyes:  See Lindsay's comments on the difference between rewards and lures.

My terrier requires salary, health benefits, luncheon vouchers and would dearly like a company car. :-D

i actually went out and bought a clicker thingy last night and started training again from the basics to see how I got on.  I put the treats out of sight before I called Misty into the kitchen and not in my hand like I tried doing before

Followed the instructions and just clicked a few times so she got the idea of the noise and that each time she heard it she got a treat.  went down really well!  she still went really silly and at one point I thought she was going to wet herself  :D because she was being so good restraining herself from going straight for the treat!!!  She got the idea really quickly and so the sit was really easy. 

I left it at that and had another go this morning and she got it first time so I went for the down from sit.  The first 3 times I had to repeat after a while what I wanted before she got the idea but on the 4th time I just said it once and she slowly and hesitantly went down.  Although it did take probably 20 secs or more before she was fully down and i think I was biting the bit to say something but I kept quiet!!  After that, she did almost instantly.  There was a couple of times she went a little too eager for the treat and caught my fingers so waited a couple of secs before giving it to her again which worked well. 

I think one of the problems I had giving treats was that i was giving it instantly she did something and as she was then becoming too excitable and not wanting to do anything else I gradually stopped the rewards and just gave her cuddles instead.  Will do some more training after lunch with the treats and not giving them the instant she does something and see how we get on. 

Thanks for all your advice so far.  Misty is a very loving dog and given eye contact will assume that you want to wear her as a scarf .  A simple stroke of the head translates as a "full belly rub " in order! :D :D