I am concerned that one of our puppy buyers has been advised to have her puppy spayed, she is 4 1/2 months and they were going to do it this week.  The vet told her the consensus of opinion was that females should be spayed before their first season, and this is the opinion of a newly quaified vet.

Given that the breed is TT it is my experience that they don't usually have a season until 9 or even 12 months and are not fully mature until over 2 years when she may have had two seasons, mum comes in every 10 months from 11 months old.

I advised the new owner to question the vet about development in a puppy so young and if a full anesthetic was wise at this age.  Surely to spay at this tender age would stop her ever maturing emotionally as well as physically and is storing up trouble for the future.

I hope I was right to tell her to put it off certainly until the little dog was over 12 months and preferably more than 18 months.

Our old vet used to spay bitches at 5 months old. I would take my new pups to socialisation classes from 12 wks of age and alot of it was information about worming, healthcare etc etc. Because I'd been going over the years we knew the old talks but I used to have to bite my tongue when spaying was discussed with new owners.
I have strong views as to when I'd like my puppy buyers to spay if that is the route they wish to take but whatever mine or anyone elses views I think to put a 5 month old puppy under anesthetic is IMO ridiculous. Also I know they recover quickly from spaying but the days they have their stitches etc to me are days lost socialising and learning about the world around them.
The vet used to state to people that it is easier and cheaper to do it before a season. Mention money and to me the average new owner will go for saving money after all raising a puppy / dog is expensive. Also I think the general public have this view that the vet is always right, how many ask about side effects of medicines etc. Whereas if breeders dogs are having anything done or drugs most want to know about side effects and are not afraid to question the vets decision.

I have had a bitch spayed at this age and yes, she has never matured and she has remained very, very timid, never gained any confidence -and she's almost 5 now. I'd never do it again.

A lot of rescues do them even younger but I don't feel comfortable with it. I'd always wait until a bitch had had at least one season and if i didn't have dogs might wait even longer

I know one rescue which neuters at 12 weeks and you cannot take the pup home until afterwards - not only is this a very young age to neuter IMHO but a lot of vital socialisation time is also lost.

I am just horrified!!! :-(

It is a very debatable subject, I just think it is horrific to neuter such a young pup.

I had Oscar done when he was far too young (4 months)....and really regret it. Unfortunately I just followed the consensus of opinion at the time. I wish someone had put me straight :(

Gosh 12 weeks = really??? shocking!

I can understand how some people can easily be led into thinking that before first season is right if that's what your vet tells you - after all vets are supposed to know these things!  I was one of these people who didn't know any better - I do now.

But even I would think 12 weeks would be far too young!

Rescue near us does them as a litter. I asked and they say it's less stressful when they go with brothers and sisters

This is what they do in the USA, and they even go so far as to say that responsible breeders should neuter their pet pups before homing.

How often does the pet pup end up being the best in the litter when the owners decide to have a go at showing, or the breeder gets them back.

I asked new owners o one of mine not to spay too young as they had nothing but problems with their older one that was spayed at 5 months.  That bitch is very timid and had infantile vulva.

They spayed my pup at 5 months because they couldn't bear the mess of seasos, as thei first #Elkhound bitch had a phantom, though she was a typical bold individual having been allowed to mature.

Not surprisingly my pup is not as bold as I would expect.  I am sue some of it is down to example for their lder enutrotic one, but she is nothing like my others who are very outgoing, she is a real shrinking violet, and looks and acts juvenile.

We had our bernese done at 7 months (before 1st season), on the advice of the vet to avoid cancer issues. Having had a bernese who died at 4 with cancer ( it took us 10 years to get over this and get another one), we wanted to do everything we possibly could to avoid a similar situation. She has matured normally, her coat didn't go fluffy and she is a confident dog - she was always quite dominant as a puppy though.

When we got our setter(gordon), the vet advised us to let her mature and have her coat come in before she was done as cancer was not so much of an issue in the breed and she in fact had two seasons before we had her spayed, again with no problems.

I think our vet gave us very good and sensible advice for both dogs, and the issue may be different for different breeds. I know that there are debates about whether spaying early prevents cancer but if you have a breed in which cancer is an issue and you have no intention of breeding then it is worthy of consideration. I would hope that most breeders would give advice too, in their packs they send out with puppies giving pro's and cons of early spaying. Our breeders were both asked advice and I did lots of research on the internet before we decided to have the Bernese done but I do think we made the right decision for both our girls.

When I got my youngest dog two years ago I attended  a 'puppy party' at a vets (not my own) and we were all told we must get our dogs neutered at 5 and half months.
I had been told with my previous two bitches that I must wait until after they had had their first season and when I said this the vet shouted me down saying no vet would ever say that and because of people like me there are so many  dogs in rehoming centres. I felt like a naughty child and had a lump in my  throat

I would have changed vets straight away.

Why on earth would allowing a bitch to have seasons cause homeless pets, that is down to irresponsible people not confining their dogs.

Well, after the first season is what my vets advise. But then they don't attempt to get everyone to neuter, they wait until the owner asks them about neutering

This topic has always intrigued me,and wonder if early spaying (before mature) is an individual thing,as in some dogs will grow up normally,others will not.

I cant help looking at America and Australia's spaying protocols.Dogs are not adopted out from shelters unless they have been fixed.Litters upon litters,upon litters of pups are done at 8 weeks old.Alot of  breeders are now starting to spay/neuter their pups before selling them on to avoid new inexperienced owners from breeding.You could send a hundred "No breeding clauses" out with your pups but if the new owners want to breed then they will :(

Anyway their blanket protocol is spay and neuter at 6mths,and it seems the vets here are following suit.... Which is the right way to follow? I also think there may be a difference in spaying a 6mth old small breed dog,compared to a 6mth old giant breed,right or wrong?

What i also find interesting is,when people come on here saying their vet told them to spay before the first season,and the general response is to change vets etc etc. But when someone mentions vets and their limited canine nutrition knowledge,this is scoffed upon...why?

My main concern is that there is evidence that the long bones in the legs continue to grow when puppies are neutered young.  I would imagine this could cause more damage to the bigger breeds or those where hip dysplasia is common. 

It interferes with developemtn of other oyd systems, how are we to know if that won't cause problems later?  We would be horrified at performing these operations on a human child no matter how inappropriate it would be for them to have children (severe mental/emotional impairment).

On that thought, I've been reading through some college notes and found an article about early neutering.  I can't link to it (it's on a student-only area) but I've picked some of the more interesting bits.

> A retrospective study of cardiac tumors in dogs showed that there was a 5 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma, one of the three most common cancers in dogs, in spayed bitches than intact bitches and a 2.4 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma in neutered dogs as compared to intact males.(7) A study of 3218 dogs demonstrated that dogs that were neutered before a year of age had a significantly increased chance of developing bone cancer.(8) A separate study showed that neutered dogs had a two-fold higher risk of developing bone cancer.(9) Despite the common belief that neutering dogs helps prevent prostate cancer, at least one study suggests that neutering provides no benefit.(10) There certainly is evidence of a slightly increased risk of mammary cancer in female dogs after one heat cycle, and for increased risk with each subsequent heat. While about 30 % of mammary cancers are malignant, as in humans, when caught and surgically removed early the prognosis is very good.(12) Luckily, canine athletes are handled frequently and generally receive prompt veterinary care.

> The study that identified a higher incidence of cranial cruciate ligament rupture in spayed or neutered dogs also identified an increased incidence of sexual behaviors in males and females that were neutered early.(5) Further, the study that identified a higher incidence of hip dysplasia in dogs neutered or spayed before 5 1/2 months also showed that early age gonadectomy was associated with an increased incidence of noise phobias and undesirable sexual behaviors.(6) A recent report of the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation reported significantly more behavioral problems in spayed and neutered bitches and dogs. The most commonly observed behavioral problem in spayed females was fearful behavior and the most common problem in males was aggression.(12)

I used to be in favour of early neutering - only for preventing unwanted pups that is, where inexperience new owners might have accidents - but having read this article and seen other bits and pieces like this, I'm not in favour of it now at all.

Edit to say: apologies for the length of this post!

That's fascinating reading, and goes to show that neutering shouldn't be treated as routine cure-all.

Very interesting - thanks.

Many thanks for that.  It confirms what I had heard but not seen in writing.

Our old vet advised us to have our dog castrated at 6 months of age and gave us all the reasons why he felt we should (cancer etc) - like idiots we took his advice and this probably contributed to his very very tall frame, he already had HD at this age and looking back now I don't think the castrating helped as he grew so long in his legs - even for a golden he was really tall!

We do have another puppy now and he is 9 months and we will not be castrating him unless there is good reason and it would be when he is much older!

I'm sure it's just as bad for bitches too - especially if they haven't had a season - it surprises me that these vets actually become qualified

Remy was done at 9 months, and he is definitely not the build he should be - he's not tall, but he is lean for his size.  Soli is the same height as him - 26" - and she's noticeably beefier, her chest and head are wider than his.

The thing with vet advice is that they give all the pros - cancer and so on - but they never talk about why NOT to spay - again, cancers and so on.  Which worries me greatly, considering dobes are quite prone to osteosarcoma, luckily I left Opi until she'd had two seasons before she was spayed.  There was a paper published in the US a year or two ago looking at cancer in neutered vs. unneutered dogs; it found a four tmies greater risk of hemangiosarcomas in neutered bitches, and an increased risk in males; it also found that neutered males are actually more at risk of prostate cancer than intact males.  It also found that the risk osteosarcoma is doubled in neutered animals, and tripled for bladders tumors.

That study looked at 30 years of data for neutered and unneutered dogs, and also found that the younger the animal the more likely that tumours or cancer would appear later in life.  I've got the article saved if anyone wants it, I'd forgotten about it until today!

The more I see info like these two articles, the less I want to neuter - at all - but I've also seen dogs going bananas because there's an in-season bitch shut in the next room, and I know I'll always have both sexes, hence why at the mo I'm going with waiting until maturity then neutering.  But in the future, if circumstances allow, I may well go down the route of not neutering at all - I'd much rather have to deal with a mammary tumour than osteosarcoma or cardiac hemangiosarcoma.

I would like to add....My boy was done at the age of 4 1/2 months. I want to do agility with him and had his hips x-rayed (last week) as his sister was diagnosed with HD. Hips were fine but the growth plates in his rear legs have yet to close. Also this week he has a sudden onset of patellar luxation. And possibly other damage. The vet prior to the x-ray examined him under sedation and felt a discrepancy in the now affect knee. But since she saw nothing unsual in the x-ray cleared him for training.

The open growth plates are due to early neuter. He is now 14 months and If I understood the x-rays properly those growth plates are well open and I worry now due to his dislocated knee..he will be prone to other injury. I cant imagine if he damages his growth plate. Vet said he wont grow any more but he is still open to injury.

So any one reading....maybe wait until the plates are closed at least.

Cheers
Julie

Hi Julie! I don't know if you've read this article about the effects of neutering on canine athletes. I know it's too late to be of use to you with your current dog, but might come in useful in the future.

Hi Julie
My dog Spangler had luxating patellas.  I think it's quiet common when a dog has h/d I know you say your dog's hips are fine but I would be really careful.  As I mentioned on an earlier post our vet recommended we neuter at 6 months old and we stupidly took his advice.

With Spangler it startd on his left leg - every time he tried to run or do anything slightly boisterous his patella would dislocate, his right leg became a problem too but not as much as his left.  We were advised by a consultant to have this fixed and we were told it was not a difficult operation - maybe it wasn't but what we were not told is that with a large breed it would be difficult for it to mend afterwards.  He had the op and we followed all instructions to keep him still, no jumping or walking etc but his leg didn't mend, he had a second operation and the same again.  to cut a long story short, we finally found a brilliant surgeon near to us and he saved his leg.  An external fixater was used and was left on for approx 8-10 weeks, then it was a long road to recovery of little exercise etc - his internal pins were removed in February 2005 and his leg was by no means perfect but he could now cock his leg and this was a first at 3 years old, but alas, his right leg then started to pop out of socket.  We were adamant he would not have another operation as we couldn't put him through another year of pain and discomfort.

In march 2005 almost a month later he had his booster and suffered a severe adverse reaction and we had no alternative but to have him pts as we couldn't bear to see him suffer anymore - we did have the choice of months of operations and skin grafts for him but the vet was not confident it would be successful - it was heartbreaking, but he wasn't suffering any longer.

The lessons we have learned are to think long and hard before putting our puppy or any dog we have in the future through any type of operation - unless it is life or death, I don't think it's something we would ever contemplate.

Sorry I've gone on but I do feel really strongly about this.

Maria

All animals need to mature. They need the hormones of adulthood for their complete development. It's all to do with body growth and the triggers in the brain which tell the body to stop growing etc. Take away the clock and you mess up the whole of the mechanics. I think it's barbaric pre maturity and always will. My local unamed rescue would not give me a homecheck because I have an unspeyed bitch at home, as they do not allow their dogs/bitches to enter a home of an entire other. She's a show bitch, but no matter apparently. So I bought a Whippet puppy instead of getting a rescue Greyhound and now wheres the sense of that I ask?:rolleyes:

Viv
You are so right, I agree with everything you say.

And, where is the sense in not allowing you to have a rescue because you have another entire bitch at home???

After Spangler died I contacted the GR rescue and was told I wasn't suitable either, something to do with me saying I wanted a GR that I could trust with children.  Now, I'm not stupid, I'd never leave a dog alone with a child but this lady decided that as we had a grandchild then we were not considered acceptable to rehome a golden   Anyway, we did the same as you and now have another golden puppy.
Maria :)  

And, where is the sense in not allowing you to have a rescue because you have another entire bitch at home???

I could understand the concern if the rescue dog was male and not neutered but otherwise, I am just as puzzled.

To be fair to GR rescue Maria, I think they get a lot of rescues where the animals have been badly treated by children (ignorant owners thinking GRs will take endless proding and poking etc because they are 'family' dogs) and therefore they do need to err on the side of caution. 

Thanks for the info..
Lucky I guess our Freeway is only 11kg. He is Jack Russell,Corgi, and Collie cross. I dont think I am keen on the idea the other knee could go as well.
I think if he ends up with surgery I will request they evaluate the other leg by x-ray. Can you see it on x-ray if it hasn't dislocated yet?
Most of the vets near me absolutely refuse to spay before the first season or castrate before the age of at LEAST 9 months...the only reason they would resconsider on a castration is if the dog was showing unwanted agressive behaviours or very excessive sexual behaviours.
Our Freeway was in the latter category and actually did himself a damage doing a teddy... so the vet tending his injury said it would be in his interest to get it done.

Anyway...
Thanks again for the article...I have read something similar but not in relation to canine atheletes...

Cheers
Julie

I think as your dog is a smaller breed the recovery would be much easier and quicker but I'd still consider it carefully as he would need complete rest, cage rest is recommended for about 3 months. 

We removed all the furniture out of one of our rooms to prevent Spangler from jumping and climbing etc and it was easy for him to get out to toilet as we have patio doors on that room which leads into the garden - I know it's not possible for everyone to do that but Spangler did not like cages and as he was in a bad way anyway we wanted him to be as comfortable and happy as he possibly could be.

I'm not sure if it can be seen on ex-ray.  When the specialist first examined Spangler, she massaged his knee and it popped out quite easily,  and then she put it back in, so I think that's how they can diagnose it!

Maria