Hi

Just wondered if any of you thought it is possible to 'backward socialise' if there is such a term a four year old dog with children.  As you might remember my Puli is 41/2 now and has had socialisation issues.  We have made fantastic progress and I'm really pleased - he is very social with every dog we meet, he plays with toys now and never used to, is very friendly to people outside of the house and is better with Adults coming into the house.  BUT if he is in his own space or restrained in any way (lead, crate etc) and a child rushed towards him he becomes anti social showing unacceptable behaviour.

I know obviously a behaviourist would help but I just wondered if you thought it was possible to go back and do the socialisation that was obviously missed out on in the early years.

thanks

Max

PS just wanted to add I've only had him for six months or so it wasnt me that didnt socialise him....

I think it's perfectly possible to RE-TRAIN! with the right sort of help! WELL DONE with all your progress and patience thus far! You're a star! :D love Dawn

You have done brilliantly!! the problem with children is they do tend to rush and move quickly!! i dont think anyone is or should be expected to answer with regards to children concerned just wanted to say well done!! :)

Sounds like great things have been done - way to go with your lad, huge congrats  :)

I'd treat socialising him with children in much the same way as you would have done from puppy hood.  Slowly, steadily and at a distance initially - let him observe them for example in the play ground during mid-morning breaks, but keep a fair distance between him and railings, hedges etc surrounding the school yard.  Just let him get slowly but surely used to the unpredictable squeals, screams, shouting and bouts of laughter etc that are part and parcel of youngsters going a little OTT on a short respite from the classroom :)  Gradually work a little closer so he can view them running around, skipping, playing ball, races etc (OK, maybe loitering with their Nintendos :rolleyes: :D ) but dont push the boundaries - work at a pace where he is not being scared or anxious by the sounds and sights ;)

I apologise as I cant remember if you have children of your own but if so, encourage them to bring friends around although keep your boy safely away from them and simply allow him to get used to their behaviours, sounds and scents.   If you don't have children of your own, perhaps enlist the help of friends or neighbours who you can trust to ask that their children will respect and, ideally, initially ignore the dog while you go through the slow process of building his confidence around them.

Always make sure for safety that he is not directly approached by children - as you know already, when restrained / restricted from escape in some way he is upset so it is important to work on distant management first. 

What does his >anti social showing unacceptable behaviour< entail?  Does he growl, bark, etc?  In his former life he may have been ill treated by a child/ren so it may take a lengthier period to desensitise him to kids in general.

You've obviously done a great job in a very short space of time with him so just try and see this as your new - but attainable - challenge!  You can do it (and we can help :) )

Good luck, Teri

Thanks for your replies and for the ideas from Teri especially. 

I do have children of my own and he is fantastic with them.  But children in the house - I cant risk him being free to move around.  He will bark and grab their jeans or trainers at the bottom as if to say dont move an inch!  This frightens children and for example he last did this to my friends little girl - I had put his crate in the front room - attached a lead to the inside back of the crate so that he could come out of the crate by one step so I could pat him/treat for good quite behaviour.  The little girl ran at him he grabbed her jeans and she was scared.  Her mother feels my dog should be pts - I feel I should just make sure the crate door is shut and try to socialise him with children gradually.  My friend (the girls mother) doesnt think I will ever be able to do this......so I was interested in your thoughts.

He hasnt bitten (if anybody reads old posts of mine there was an incidence of nipping in the first fortnight but silly mistake on my part I wont repeat the story).

Thanks again

Maxine

Hi again Maxine,

rather than have him crated, which to him may cause more anxiety and give him reason to defend his bolt hole, does the lay out of your home allow you to keep him behind a baby gate so he is looking in to the children from another room and has an entire room behind him to retreat to if he's unhappy?   Children would of course need to be supervised to ensure they didn't try to approach him either over the top of the gate or through bars and were not maybe teasing him.   I think having him crated in the same space sounds like far too much pressure for him and even if the lay out with a baby gate between rooms doesn't work in your home, you still ought to change away from the crating method you have at the moment.

I think if this lad is given sufficient time and patience - which you've already proven to be good at :) - he will gradually come around to accepting the presence of children.  TBH, not all dogs no matter how well socialiseed actually like children, but learn to ignore and when necessary tolerate them and so it is up to the adults responsible for the children and the dogs to ensure that the dog always has a place to quietly retreat to :)

regards, Teri :)

    

He will bark and grab their jeans or trainers at the bottom as if to say dont move an inch! 

Are you certain this is aggression? Only I'd expect an aggressive dog to GROWL first, not bark -if anything to me this sounds like how several of mine will behave in play. Bark, grab bottom of trousers or similar. (Compare to how they'd play with other dogs as well -bark and grab legs, many dogs do.) I've had several dog act like that with my children but not with me, and it was only in play. New people visiting =fun! Let's play! That sort of thing. (As my kids don't live with me, their arrival is always very exciting, same as any other visitor, as opposed to if they were here all the time.)

Thanks Teri - I do have baby gates so i could use one to go across my bedroom door (we live in a bungalow ) - that is a good idea I will try that.

Marianne - I already half suspect you could be right and that it is play because if he had wanted to bite in my opinion he could have bitten and not just held the jeans - but then my friend thinks I'm just biased - I think he must have had quite good judgement to not get the leg and only get the material.  The difficulty is obviously if this scares a child then I have to try and change this behaviour.

Its difficult isnt it because my friend has three dogs - two staffs and a rotty - she's had them from pups and all are excellent with children so because mine isnt she sees him as unpredictable and needing to be pts . 

I'm hoping for a behaviourist to come and see him soon - she helped me out before christmas when I had an incidence and she has said she will visit us and help me.    But until she comes I will try getting him used to the noise etc from a distance and I will use the pet gate.

Thanks again for everything - I always get encouragement on here it's brilliant,

Maxine

Hi again Maxine,

I agree with Marianne that this may be a play reaction but TBH it appears to me from your description that his "herding" instinct is kicking in - although in his case it may be that he's using it to "drive the children" AWAY from him ....

It must be very upsetting and hurtful to have your friend say he should be pts for this behaviour - particularly as you've worked so hard with him and clearly really want to make him the happiest little dog on the planet :)   You obviously want to do what's best and his behaviour doesn't sound at all to me to be so threatening that it requires drastic steps.  More that you may have to observe him closely and, with the help of a reputable behaviourist, work out "why" - for sure - he behaves as he does.

I agree that he seems to be using clever judgement in NOT nipping or biting - which to me sounds an exceptionally good start.  Whether driven by play or warning, he is not taking things too far and you should perhaps point that out to your friend!

Teri :)

Hi :)

With regard to socialising, the real window does close at about 16 weeks, but, I do believe dogs can and will continue to learn about life for the rest of their lives pretty much. It's much easier with dogs who have been well socialised (done at their own speed, of course). Many dogs (particulalrly of guarding breeds) will also need ongoing socialisation, ideally anyway.

With your dog, having a behaviourist in is a great idea, but it can make a huge difference as to who you get in. Some will have basic knowledge, others will have a huge range of knowledge. Some will subscribe to old fashioned pack leader type help, others will base their info on up to date science/learning theory and hopefully hands on knowledge too.

Your dog will need a mix of classical conditioning (working with his emotions) and operant (training! ;) ) It depends on the individual as to how far you can get with them.

Good luck,

Lindsay
x

Undersocialised dogs don't always react as you'd expect - Soli resource guards the sofa if I let her on there, and if I go to touch her rear end (don't do this, obviously or allow her on there except at night) she will NOT growl - she will go straight to the bite.  Out on walks, if a strange dog comes too close too fast, again she won't growl - she goes straight to lunging and barking.

I agree that in this case it does sound more like play, I just thought that should be said!

And Maxine, congrats on doing so well with your guy, you're doing a fantastic job :)

maybe hes herding?????

Nikita - thanks for those words.  The time I spent in all the local parks stalking people and asking if I could walk in the same direction as them with their dogs definitely paid off as he is now fantastic with all of them.  I'm determined to get there with this as well - slowly but surely.

Michelled - as he is a herding/guarding dog you could be right.  I spoke to another Puli owner who said her dogs always go for her kids trouser bottoms when they are on the trampoline as they go up so the dog jumps up pulls their jeans to bring them down again....

I think as one of the earlier posts say he may never come to like and enjoy playing with lots of children around but if I can get him to accept them more that would be great.

I'll keep going and let you know if it all goes well...

thanks again everyone

Maxine

Hi All,

I am having a visitor today with her daughter - so I am all prepared - pet gate on my bedroom door (bungalow) so we'll see how he goes , if he calms down and is quiet and doesnt go mad when they walk past the bedroom do I let him in to say hello or leave him where he is and not push my luck?

thanks

Maxine 

Personally, I would leave him in your bedroom, and just have your visitors ignore him this time.   Let him get used to the sounds/smells of visitors (and the noises made by young visitors).   Then, when they have gone, let him have a good sniff around - let him realise that the visitors are absolutely no threat.   Give him a good big fuss when they have gone.   Next time, maybe have the same visitors speak to him, then give him a treat......

Margot .

I'd leave him where he is, and take the pressure off so you are the one doing the meeting/greeting etc.

Hello All,

Everything went well - he barked for about 2-3 minutes when they came in - he was behind the pet gate in the bedroom.  He then calmed down and was quiet for a couple of hours. Probably having a good rest because we had taken him over the woods before they came.  We then put him on the house line to walk him through to go the garden and when he came back in let him say hello while the guests were sat down.  Then we put him back in the bedroom - no barking at all - he was quite happy.

So thats definitely worked better than having him in the same room - he could hear them and see them walking past the room.

so I will definitely work it up from here - I feel I've find my succesful starting point now - thanks for everyones help on this.  It was your advice that got me through the fear aggression with dogs when I first had him and hopefully now we'll get him through this.

I also followed your advice over the park today - there were lots of toddlers in the park (fenced off area) and they were running and screaming so I stood outside to see how he would react and he showed no interest.  I still wouldnt let him run in and around little ones though because you never know - but at least I feel it is more a case of when they are on his territory that I need to work on.

thanks again,

Maxine   

That's grreat!

Sounds good so far :)

Lindsay
x

Hi Maxine,

I'm so glad you're seeing things more positively again :)  Sounds like "the boy" is definitely on the right track and you're going through the varying problem areas in ideal fashion.

Keep up the good work - he's got a mum in a million!

regards, Teri