My two little shelties have fallen into the habit of 'herding' my deerhounds. Then the shelties nip at the hounds' hocks and try to herd them. So far the hounds have put up with it but I'm afraid that someday someone is going to get a sore nip and retaliate - which would be bad news for the sheltie in question. Also my old deerhond is lame and they have almost had her down a couple of times. Otherwise the shelties are obedient. Any ideas for stopping them doing this?

Personally I would walk your deerhounds seperately to your Shelties, especially if one has a lame leg.

Trying to stop a herding dog from herding is like trying to stop a bird from flying, you can learn to control it with the Stop!, or That'll do! command but you need to have been doing this training from puppyhood, you can always destract the Shelties with ball and frisbee games but it is a part of the Shelties make up, so you will never stop it completely.

I would just protect your deerhounds by walking seperately, and if the herding is in the home too then seperate there too, it is not fair on your other two dogs.

I'm afraid to say I actually encourage my collies to do this - it makes the zois run more :D. Toto particularly goes a bit silly and sees it as a challenge to escape. He's like a naughty ram facing up to the collies, then he barks and wags his tail and takes off at top speed :D  When he gets fed up and the collies are still nipping his heels trying to make him move I start throwing the ball and this works wonderfully well :)  You just need to make the shelties ball crazy if they're not already. Of course this has it's own problems as they'll then continually run backwards in front of you, demanding the ball be thrown again, and again and for ever more...but at least the hounds will get peace :)

I'm bumping this up because I need help before there is a serious injury. The herding shelties aren't too bad when we are out in the fields because the hounds, even the lame old girl, outstrip them easily. Its when the dogs are coming into the house from the paddock that they are so bad. On the way out they obey a very firm 'sit - stay' until the hounds are out, but on the way back in they turn completely deaf and worry the hounds' hocks like mad.

They've caused all the hounds to yelp, have left nips on their legs and have now had the lame old lady down. She in particular has got very fed up with them, as has my IW who is another favourite target. Someday one of the hounds will snap in both senses of the word and I'll have a dead sheltie.

Separating the shelties completely is not really practical, though I am letting the hounds out in the paddock without them now. But all that has achieved is the little monsters harrying the hounds as they come back into the kitchen when again they become stone deaf. They are also - stupidly - completely fearless.

I'm totally at my wits' end with this pair. There must be some way to stop this behaviour in such and intelligent breed.

Any suggestions anyone?

If you can't distract them with a ball or toy is it possible to just lasso them with a lead when coming in?

One of them is completely ball obsessed, the other less so but they prefer herding to even the older one's special 'training ball'. :(

The physics of the place make it difficult to lasso the little brutes. There is a safe paddock where they can all be out unsupervised. Around the back door there is a small area fenced off for the summer seat etc. When you go to the back door the hounds obediently gather at the gate. The shelties get ready behind the hounds, then as the hounds come in through the gate they start herding them through the fenced area, through the dog room and on into the kitchen, An the miserable wee sods are not only like lightning, they are given 'cover' by a forest of long legs.

I do sympathise, I was brought up as a child with Rough Collies and love them, but when my mum got Cockers and my oldest brother a Lab, (many moons ago) I decided against a herding breed as I knew they would spend a lot of time together, I don't actually like mixing some different breeds together as this is what can happen.

I really do sympathise, but the only honest solution is you must seperate, if possible I would sit and put your heads together get out a pencil and paper and design and then build a two gated entrances to your home from the paddock with the Shelties learning to go in one side and the hounds in another, open the gate to your home for the hounds first let them get in and allow them to get settled and then the Shelties to avoid the herding. If the Shelties nip in the home too, then re-design your home around the two breeds it is the only way, you can't have your hounds being nipped it is the only way.

I have to agree with Carrington on this one, before you end up with a dead sheltie or rehoming one breed or the other.  My new dog is left separated from my other two dogs when I go out; when I come back in, I have her in a sit-stay while I open the lounge door, and I tell the others to do the same while it's opening.  Only when I say are they allowed to come in, and only to one side of me so the new girl can go in the lounge (she's not too confident around them and gets upset if they get too close, so she needs space).  I do the same thing if they're the other way round (say, if I'm walking them, she gets shut in the lounge) - it's my only option.  If I leave them together, I risk one of the other two getting a nasty injury where she'd panic and lash out in the mad hustle to get indoors or greet me.

If you cannot always avoid having both breeds together, then perhaps throwing a handful of food down behind the biguns as they come in might distract the shelties while the biguns are settling down - but I still think separation is the only safe way forward.

I think a handful of food on the ground would just mean the big hoovers would turn round and compete with the little hoovers for the grub. :D Then, when it was gone we would be back to the same situation.

I'm going to try Carrington's two gate solution, but I'm very open to other solutions especially on the training front. The shelties are quick as paint and are well trained and obedient otherwise so I can't help thinking that I'm doing something wrong / not doing something / being plain dumb!

Thanks Carrington. :) Erecting two gates would be easy to do and hopefully the shelties could be trained to use a different one from the hounds. We will get it done this weekend and see how it goes.

Once the hounds are in and settled the nipping is very minor. Indoors sighthounds don't move far from their sofas and if one does go for a wander a 'sit - stay' or 'leave it' contols the shelties who are of course always busy about the place.

I do know that some breeds don't mix but we have had 2 shelties, 1 or 2 IWs and 5 - 6 deerhounds for two decades and the problem didn't arise with the previous shelties who evidently didn't have such a high herding drive. I know its an odd mix but we had shelties before work and location allowed us to have the big hounds I'd always wanted. I love the contrast between the always on the go shelties who follow everywhere I go in the house and the essentially lazy indoor hounds that become dedicated running machines outdoors.

Hi Jas. My IW is permenently velcroed to my side in the house. He follows me everywhere from room to room, when I hoover (even tho he doesnt like the hoover)! he is always there unless he is asleep. Licks my arms and elbows while I wash up. Just about has his head in the washing machine while I load it watching everything. He doesnt have any seperation anxieties tho, you think he would have with him being at my side all the time. :rolleyes:

Hi Jas - this may sound really stupid but cant you get the hounds to stay and let the shelties in first?

Its not stupid at all. I can get the herd of hounds to wait quietly at the gate to be let in but the dastardly shelties wait behind them, defiantly refusing to come in until the hounds move - and then they attack! In fact they nip the hounds when they are standing still waiting. :(

I'm sure there must be SOME way of persuading the shelties to obey orders when they are in the situation of being behind the hounds at the gate, but the reward they get from herding the hounds seems to be very high. :( In other circumstances they are well trained obedient little dogs. I know it is my fault to have let a situation arise where the activity they do is rewarding enough to over-ride all training and I suspect there is a way to undo it that I'm just being too thick to find. :)

All I can suggest is that the shelties and the hounds go out at separate times, never together, then behind a pen or similar in the kitchen when they come in till they've all calmed down a bit.

Thanks JG. That is what we are doing at the moment. The hounds go out first and the shelties go into the sitting room when they come in. Then the shelties go out and come back into the kitchen by which time the hounds are draped over their sofas, and offer nothing to herd. It's a bit of a bind but is working not too badly. I am however going to try Carrington's two gate solution at the weekend. I can't believe that something as trainable as a sheltie is beating me on this! :)

Hi housetrained, is he an only hound? You may well find when he is a bit older and/or you follow the well trodden 'one IW is never enough' path that he becomes velcroed to his favourite sofa! My hounds come to me for attention in the evenings but its very much on their terms, a bit like having gigantic cats. That said I've always found IWs to be a bit more interested in what their owner is doing than the deerhounds, who prefer to dream of rabbits.

Sorry I cant help - I only have one dog - he is a herding dog but believe me I have the herding problem when we have visitors and like you I am concerned because it is a real problem.  I hope you find a solution.  Herding/nipping guests be it adults or children is what I have and the only way I have found to cope is separation...

Maxine

Hi Maxine, I sympathise with your visitor problem. My shelties would like to herd guests, especially children but I managed to train the out of it early. They still circle visitors who are moving about but they don't nip. There is a family of three youngish kids that come to visit the dogs and who get them quite excited, and I do always watch very carefully when they are in the garden to make sure that circling doesn't turn into nipping but so far a sharp word has been enough to stop the basic behaviour escalating into the full blown version with the kids.

What I didn't expect was them to start herding the hounds and get so totally fixated on it before I saw it as a problem. It's such a stupid thing for a little sheltie to do - my big IW boy could fit a whole sheltie torso in his jaws if he chose to!

Hi Jas,

The first thing you must do really is to prevent the shelties from practising this, as over time they will simply find it more and more rewarding and get better at it!

It sounds as if you've already started to stop them:

Thanks JG. That is what we are doing at the moment. The hounds go out first and the shelties go into the sitting room when they come in. Then the shelties go out and come back into the kitchen by which time the hounds are draped over their sofas, and offer nothing to herd. so that's one step forward :)

It also sounds as if the shelties are really keen on herding - if you can control the target (ie give them another target) that should help. I know you've probably already tried this with the balls. Are these kept as very special? If not they may not work.  Dogs who are very strong in their instincts/drives/needs don't always do well if literally prevented - they need to be prevented from herding the wrong target, but preferably given something else related to satisy that side of them.

I don't know your layout exactly, but from what you've described the problem is mostly at the gate? I'd do lots of practise training with shelties on their own at the gate, rewarding them for coming in when you give the command (I'd use very luscious special food rewards for this) and then after some of this, see if they'd come in before the IWs. If this didn't work, I'd either use the Sit/Wait until the IWs were right inside or do something similar to control the shelties...little monkeys! :P

Good luck - I'm sure you'll crack it. I like Carrington's idea, too :)

Lindsay
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Hi Lindsay, I hoped you'd come along. :) Yes, we have started to stop them this week by not physically having the shelties and the hounds in the paddock at the same time, and I'm going to try Carrington's two gate solution at the weekend when we  will get a second gate up, weather allowing.

The shelties I think are two separate problems. The blue merle is older by a year and is called Marble. They younger sable and white is called Flame. Both are entire females, very fit and at the peak of life.

Marble has an extremely strong herding drive and a very high activity level. We call her our perpetual motion machine. She is completely ball obsessed. Outside she plays football all the time and is as good as Geordie Best at dribbling. :) Indoors she is constantly bringing a soft ball to be thrown and for a quiet life we usually oblige.

Flame is much quieter, preferring to spend her evenings on my lap with the cats. She doesn't have the same ball obsession though she fetches nicely when Marble isn't there (when she is Flame doesn't both to try). Nor does she show the same relentless energy as Marble. She does however copy Marble in Marble's herding activities and if anything gives a wickeder nip!

Marble does have a 'special' ball which we use for training (Flame is greedy and works better for food, though she does have her own 'special' soft toy.) I've tried distracting Marble from the hounds with her special ball, but this is the one circumstance that she ignores it. At the gate both go completely deaf to the 'sit', 'stay' and 'leave' that they normally obey perfectly.

The problem isn't only at the gate, but it's controllable otherwise. The shelties try to herd the hounds when we are going into and are in the field but all that happens is that the hounds vanish at top speed and even my lame, elderly deerhound lady and my big IW boy outstrip the shelties by far. The shelties then give up and play football or do their own thing.

The shelties, especially Marble, do try to have a sneaky nip at the hounds in the house, but in the house they more or less obey 'leave it' when they do. They biggest problem in the kitchen is my lame old deerhound. She is lame on one hind leg, and was slipping badly on the tiled floor until someone here (JG & chaumsong I think - thanks ladies) suggested a slipper sock for her lame foot. Since then she has been motoring along well, but the shelties can still pull her off balance if they get to her bad leg before I get to them to order them off.

As I said, I'm putting the hounds and sehelties out separately, and keeping a close eye on them in the house. I will also rig two gates. But this behaviour has obviously built up under my nose to the point where nothing that I have found is more rewarding to the shelties. I'd love to unpick it by training, especially as shelties are so trainable. :) Should I try tackling the two shelties separately do you think?

Hi Jas. Yes he is an only hound. I had a Standard Poodle up until last Feb, but she had to be put to sleep. So he really only had 4 mths with her. Prior to him we had 2 Great Danes who lived with the Poodle for many years and she was boss of them. We are thinking of one day having another but wanted to wait till he matures. He is perfect in behaviour except when visitors come and he turns into a loony! Takes ages to calm down. He paws them and tries to climb up from doing that to. He behaves for a treat but when I stop giving them he starts again. He is our first IW and we thought the Danes were affectionate but he is the most affectionate dog we have owned yet. We will probably get another one day.

Hi housetrained. They are a lovely breed and the one I wanted from being quite a small child. How I moved sideways to deerhounds is a long story, but I wouldn't be without a wolfhound or two. We usually have two about a year apart in age but at present only have one, a big red brindle boy aged 5. I'd love to have another IW but my deerhounds haven't read the actuarial charts so I'd be over-dogged if I got an IW pup now. I've never bred IWs though in retrospect I'd have loved to have had a litter from my first IW bitch who was my 'one in a lifetime' dog. In my experience he will grow out of the excitement with visitors - they will still get a good greeting but you will find that after 2 or 21/2 he will setttle down again quite quickly. Just out of interest, what is his breeding? My boy is a Caredig and all my previous IWs were Melanter.

Hi Jas. Yes I have heard of Caredig. But we are new to Wolfies so dont know too many breeders as such. He is Hannikins. The breeder has been out of the ring for a few years now. But she has been breeding for 20 yrs plus. He has only done about 6 shows but been placed at every one and has qualified for Crufts. See how he looks by March. If not his best then we wont show him. Yes i have been told he should mature by 2 1/2 but the way he is it isnt looking that way. Our Youngest Dane who died in her sleep at age 6 never grew up! Only in the ring she seemed to change totally then go back to being a nut when she got home. Lovely temperement tho as is our Wolfie. He is quite a character. We were after a Wheaten at the time we got him but couldn't get one. Maybe we didnt look far enough.

Hi housetrained, congratulations on your boy's show record. If you are looking for a wheaten next time around it would be a good idea to make enquiries in the Republic of Ireland. There are not many true wheatens in the UK but some breeders in Ireland have them. Have you got Mary McBryde's book? She has a good chapter on colour genetics in the IW. In fact it is a good book, full stop.

I know what you mean about some dogs never growing up. We had a deerhound who lived to 15 and still had many silly puppy moments right to the end. She was very clever, and caused us endless embarrassment with her antics, but we adored her. :)

Hi Jas, No havent got Mary McBryde's book. Got Alma Starbuck and Elizabeth Murphy's books. A couple of people at shows have said ours will turn silver when he is older but up to now he has kept his red, not a deep red more like a sandy looking red. I would have thought he would stay like that now.

We have thought about Ireland but dont't know of any reputible breeders over there. Will have to enquire at shows. Have heard many stories about the Wheatens that they are no good for showing because of their colour and every fault shows up? But first and foremost they are a pet that we show. Doesnt matter if it doesnt do any good in the ring my OH does it as a hobby and does a show when he has time which is every 6 weeks or so. We know our boy will never be a champion, win or lose my OH enjoys it.

Thanks for your replies. Sue.

I don't rate Starbuck but am on my third copy of Betty Murphy's book. She scared the living daylights out of me with her feeding chapter when I was rearing my first IW. I wrote to tell her and she wrote a very nice note back saying she thought maybe she had overdone it a bit. :) I also like Joel Samaha's book and have closely guarded copies of DeQuoy's books which I bought for a few pounds but which now sell for hundreds. :)

Sorry to say but the people at shows are right about your boy's colour. If there is any brindling on an IW it will end up some shade of grey brindle. (My boy was a deep mahogany red brindle but now he is dark grey.) Only the absolutely solid blacks, creams and wheatens will keep their colour.

There are some very reputable breeders in Ireland (and a few that I would avoid) but no doubt you will get plenty of advice at shows. Assuming the breeder is reputable and breeds typical hound, my main criteria in choosing an IW puppy (and in breeding a deerhound litter) is longevity and relative freedom from bloat, osteosarcoma and especially from cardiomyopathy in the pedigree. It is striking that in both breeds some lines definitely have a longer average lifespan. Have you seen Betty Murphy's longevity report -http://home.fiac.net/marshaw/96eiwc4.htm ? It dates back to 1996 so things may have changed of course, and new breeders of long lived hounds will have come along.

Hi Jas,
Thankyou for that link it was interesting to look at. You have been very helpful with your information. At what age will he start to lose his red and turn grey? Only asking because he looks nothing like grey at the moment. Once again thankyou. Have to dash my chinese takeaway has just been delivered!

Hi housetrained, I'd expect him to turn grey at maturity when he is 21/2 - 3.

housetrained, I have PM'd you.

Marble has an extremely strong herding drive and a very high activity level. We call her our perpetual motion machine. She is completely ball obsessed. Outside she plays football all the time and is as good as Geordie Best at dribbling.  Indoors she is constantly bringing a soft ball to be thrown and for a quiet life we usually oblige.

Flame is much quieter, preferring to spend her evenings on my lap with the cats. She doesn't have the same ball obsession though she fetches nicely when Marble isn't there (when she is Flame doesn't both to try). Nor does she show the same relentless energy as Marble. She does however copy Marble in Marble's herding activities and if anything gives a wickeder nip!

Marble does have a 'special' ball which we use for training (Flame is greedy and works better for food, though she does have her own 'special' soft toy.) I've tried distracting Marble from the hounds with her special ball, but this is the one circumstance that she ignores it. At the gate both go completely deaf to the 'sit', 'stay' and 'leave' that they normally obey perfectly.

Do you tend to play with them almost as they ask, or do you ask for something in return? ie sit, wait, dog pushups, etc etc...as it may be that you need to up your own "requirements" before they get their toy and it should also make the toy more precious. I do this a lot with Banya, she gets a lot of playing with raggie and kong on a rope, but I also ask  her to do something before we play, and also over time have progressed to asking for perhaps a Sit, a Wait, a Here, a Paw, so she may do several things before she gets the toy. It is a marvellous way of teaching control, obedience and also frustration control - very useful ;)

Of course you may already do this, in which case I'm teaching you to suck eggs :P

(another tip is to keep the toy as yours, not theirs - it belongs to you and you "let" them play with it ...keeping the ball with you can sometime push up the value of the ball in the dogs' eyes)

The shelties, especially Marble, do try to have a sneaky nip at the hounds in the house, but in the house they more or less obey 'leave it' when they do. They biggest problem in the kitchen is my lame old deerhound. She is lame on one hind leg, and was slipping badly on the tiled floor until someone here (JG & chaumsong I think - thanks ladies) suggested a slipper sock for her lame foot. Since then she has been motoring along well, but the shelties can still pull her off balance if they get to her bad leg before I get to them to order them off.

Hm, it may be necessary to give a consequence, I'd tend to use a long/house line and simply move the individual out the room for up to 3 minutes at a time, (mark the exact behaviour you don't want with an "ah" noise) if they value company it may work very well - however, you'd need to be consistent with this and the fact there are 2 may pose a problem in implementing this if you decided to go down this route.

As I said, I'm putting the hounds and sehelties out separately, and keeping a close eye on them in the house. I will also rig two gates. But this behaviour has obviously built up under my nose to the point where nothing that I have found is more rewarding to the shelties. I'd love to unpick it by training, especially as shelties are so trainable.  Should I try tackling the two shelties separately do you think?

If you can - as you know training separately is usually easier than attempting both dogs together :) 
It's certainly an interesting problem but worrying esp. for your older girl with the lame foot. Keep us updated, won't you Jas - hope it goes well :)

Lindsay
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Do you tend to play with them almost as they ask, or do you ask for something in return? ie sit, wait, dog pushups, etc etc...as it may be that you need to up your own "requirements" before they get their toy and it should also make the toy more precious. I do this a lot with Banya, she gets a lot of playing with raggie and kong on a rope, but I also ask  her to do something before we play, and also over time have progressed to asking for perhaps a Sit, a Wait, a Here, a Paw, so she may do several things before she gets the toy. It is a marvellous way of teaching control, obedience and also frustration control - very useful

Marble has three soft lattice footballs that are in various rooms. When we are sitting quietly she is constantly bringing one for us to throw and we generally do without asking her to do anything in return. She also has a favourite bouncy tennis ball sized ball and she only gets to play with that when she has done something. Flame is less keen on balls and toys in general but she does have a soft toy (two interlocked plush rings) which she likes to fetch and play tug with. Again she only gets it when she has done something. She does however like her cuddles (as soon as I sit down she hops up on my lap) and she gets those without doing anything to 'pay' for them. Perhaps I should ask for something in return for throwing Marble's lattice footballs and for Flame's cuddles?

(another tip is to keep the toy as yours, not theirs - it belongs to you and you "let" them play with it ...keeping the ball with you can sometime push up the value of the ball in the dogs' eyes)

Marble's bouncy ball and Flame's rings are 'mine' and only come out when I get them out, but the lattice footballs and other toys are either lying on the floor or in a box that the dogs have free access to. Should I take them all away do you think? (Past puppyhood the hounds are not at all toy orientated and the only 'objects' they enjoy have long ears and run fast :) so I wouldn't be depriving them.

Hm, it may be necessary to give a consequence, I'd tend to use a long/house line and simply move the individual out the room for up to 3 minutes at a time, (mark the exact behaviour you don't want with an "ah" noise) if they value company it may work very well - however, you'd need to be consistent with this and the fact there are 2 may pose a problem in implementing this if you decided to go down this route.

You are going to disapprove, but I've already given consequences for attacking to old lady's bad leg in the form of several sharp smacks each. It has made not a blind bit of difference - if I see them getting ready to go for her a vocal command is enough to stop them, but the sneaky pair will still have a go if they think I'm not watching. I can try putting them out of the room and they won't like it as they are my little shadows but I think this herding is so hard wired that it rewards them more than any aversive can cope with. I think I'll just have to be even more eagle eyed in the house and make sure I stop them before they get started.

As for outside, we've got the second gate rigged up so tomorrow I start training the shelties that it is the only gate they are allowed to come through.

BTW I don't want to give the impression that the shelties are horrible or aggressive little dogs. In most circumstances they are very obedient and keen to please. Marble was a wondeful nanny with my last deerhound litter. Mum trained them to be proper little sighthounds and disciplined them, but Marble played with them incessantly and allowed their little needle teeth be affixed in all parts of herself without a murmur.

I'll let you know how we go. It's hard on the hounds, especially the lame old lady but what worries me more is the chance that a hound will lose it's temper so I need to get it solved somehow.

Perhaps I should ask for something in return for throwing Marble's lattice footballs and for Flame's cuddles?

I think the main thing is that the dogs are used to doing a lot for you and that you do ask for something in return very often. It doesn't have to be all the time - but some  of the time, so that you feel you are very much in control and the dogs are bursting to do as you ask as they earn their rewards. The dogs should basically find this fun - if they start to seem resentful then it's not rewarding enough or they are confused. Hopefully though it should slot in well with what you do and be something easy to add in :)

Marble's bouncy ball and Flame's rings are 'mine' and only come out when I get them out, but the lattice footballs and other toys are either lying on the floor or in a box that the dogs have free access to. Should I take them all away do you think?

It may not be a bad idea to reduce the toys the dogs have access to - as long as they have playtime, that's what is important. Having lots of toys around usually does tend to reduce their value - a bit like us having chocolate around all thetime every day ... :D

if I see them getting ready to go for her a vocal command is enough to stop them, but the sneaky pair will still have a go if they think I'm not watching.

Pre-empting them is excellent, preventing them practising is a really good way of managing this although not always easy as you may not always be in the room presumably? If so, do they get a chance to "self reward" with herding if you aren't there at all?

I can try putting them out of the room and they won't like it as they are my little shadows but I think this herding is so hard wired that it rewards them more than any aversive can cope with. I think I'll just have to be even more eagle eyed in the house and make sure I stop them before they get started.

A huge Yes, to the second sentence - I suspect that occasional intermittent self rewarding in the herding has made the behaviour far stronger. It's called variable reinforcement and is one method trainers use to make a behaviour stronger! :P

Re. them being your shadows - this time out suggestion/method may be precisely the thing that is  agood consequence as it is the dog who determines what a "punishment" is, really, rather than the owner. Remember if you do this to be calm, confident, firm, no nagging, just "ah" and out the door for up to 3 minutes. They may get worse before they get better - this will be an "extinction burst" and is the point many owners will give up!

BTW I don't want to give the impression that the shelties are horrible or aggressive little dogs. In most circumstances they are very obedient and keen to please. Marble was a wondeful nanny with my last deerhound litter

Not at all :) After all, they are just being dogs and sound as if they have a wonderful character!! I find it interesting the herding is so strong, I've learnt something as somehow I didn't think it was ever that strong in Shelties - we live and learn

Hope it goes well, fingers crossed.

Lindsay
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I think the main thing is that the dogs are used to doing a lot for you and that you do ask for something in return very often. It doesn't have to be all the time

Maybe my problem is that I treat the shelties too much like sighthounds. The hounds demand little and give little (in terms of obedience) in return. They are however very easy to 'civilise' so that they do the few things that are demanded of them - come back (unless they have got into their stride hunting in which case you wait for them to kill or lose the prey). Walk nicely on the lead. Show no aggression to man nor dog. Not steal food (otherwise I'd have kitchen benches 8' up! Go out/in on command and stay if asked to. Get off furniture if asked. The shelties possibly need to do more for the games and cuddles. I did obedience and agility with my previous shelties and they did not herd. Perhaps I need to do something similar with these two.

It may not be a bad idea to reduce the toys the dogs have access to - as long as they have playtime, that's what is important. Having lots of toys around usually does tend to reduce their value - a bit like us having chocolate around all the time every day

Right I shall remove the toys except for playtime.

Pre-empting them is excellent, preventing them practising is a really good way of managing this although not always easy as you may not always be in the room presumably? If so, do they get a chance to "self reward" with herding if you aren't there at all?

The situation there is not too bad. We spend most of our time in the big kitchen, and if we are in the sitting room the hounds tend not to move except to come in to us for a cuddle. So even then we can pre-empt the shelties if we watch closely enough.

A huge Yes, to the second sentence - I suspect that occasional intermittent self rewarding in the herding has made the behaviour far stronger. It's called variable reinforcement and is one method trainers use to make a behaviour stronger!

I suppose they have had variable reinforcement when I haven't been watching closely enough. I shall do my best to get the vocal command in before they go for the old, lame lady from now on.

Re. them being your shadows - this time out suggestion/method may be precisely the thing that is  agood consequence as it is the dog who determines what a "punishment" is, really, rather than the owner. Remember if you do this to be calm, confident, firm, no nagging, just "ah" and out the door for up to 3 minutes. They may get worse before they get better - this will be an "extinction burst" and is the point many owners will give up!

Perhaps exclusion will work better than a smack - they follow me to the loo and to the bath! I'm well aware of extinction bursts. The big hounds are hard wired to steal food but to live in harmony with them you've got to train them out of it and the youngsters do tend to get much worse before they stop.

I find it interesting the herding is so strong, I've learnt something as somehow I didn't think it was ever that strong in Shelties - we live and learn

It certainly is in Marble - she even tries to herd the cats, but unlike the hounds, said felines won't put up with it! Oddly enough she ignores sheep, but then all of my dogs are very firmly taught that they must not look at sheep from baby puppyhood.

We have been practising with the two gates today and the shelties are already getting the idea so hopefully that will work (thanks Carrington).