My bitch is due soon with her first litter and I was thinking on keeping a bitch back for breeding to start my line, however, i also have a four month old puppy (same father, different mother) and am not sur if keeping one back from this litter is such a good idea, what with having two youngsters not far apart age wise. Any comments wouldbe welcomed.
Also, views welcomed on which season to breed from after one year (after hip scoring and eye tests done with good results)
any advise welcomed as this is my and her first litter!

Di

Hi,
What breed do you have? It helps others on here to gauge seasons and growth development.
good luck with your puppies.
toodles

Not sure best answer.. someone will come to your rescue..

Good luck with puppies , let us know how it goes..

Pam :-)

THANKS PAM

ONLY 12 DAYS TO D-DAY SO MAYBE SHE WONT HAVE ANY BITCHES AT ALL WHICH WILL ANSWER MY DILEMMA

:COOL:

HI TOODLES

GOLDEN RETRIEVERS.
I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE PROBABLY BE OK TO MATE INDIA (PUP IN QUESTION) ON FIRST SEASON AFTER 12 MONTHS PROVIDING GOOD HIP SCORE AND CLEAR EYE CERT. WHAT DO YOU THINK

DI :CONFUSED:

Hi,

I am by no means an expert - but i would not mate a bitch until she was fully mature - around 2 years old: so that both phsically and mentally she is no longer a puppy - after all there is no hurry to breed is there?
I would also say that would be better timing wise as you already have a 4 month old dog, and he would be receaching maturity by then also.
As to whether to keep one or not - i think you will probbaly decide that once they are born! Also, it is belived that a repeat mating does not produce the quality of the first - if it was good that is...
Just my tuppence worth,

Alex

Di

When we had Goldens, well respected Golden breeders all advised us to wait till our bitch was 2 1/2 - 3 before mating and to leave 1 1/2 before mating again.
We only took one litter from her just before she was 3. She had 9 pups and I wanted to keep them all but we ended up with 2.
Good luck
Dot

You know over the years I have heard many stories re first matings and repeat matings and about if you use the one dog on a bitch she will get saturation and then only have that type puppies even if you use another dog. How the first litter is always weak and the second litter is best . in a nutshell I am saying imop that it is all bulls!!!.
Alice gave me two champiopns from her one and only litter and Babs is half way there.
Babs had an accidental mating preventing her from getting her title. All the puppies [Father to daughter] were show quality .
I never saw evidence to back up any of those tales . Mari

My Bitch Mattie only ever had two litters that lived and both litters by the same sire ie: repeat mating and produced two Champions and thats not easy in labs :) :) also in the first litter a res cc winning bitch. (just shoing off lol)

mari,
with a father daughter mating, would you breed then from any of that litter, what comes out later on from in breeding if any thing, why then is close in breeding frowned upon.regards tina

Hi Tina
Like I said this was an accidental mating when it happened . But yes I was going to do it anyway but a yr later .
It was good but problems can arise from this kind of thing so careful thought is needed to go from there .
I think it turned out good because the mating with Alice was a total outcross to bring back size .
So it was not as close as line bred Father to daughter.
The next step has been done now , the grandson is from different lines on the sire side and can now go either way .
I need to get it right as I do not like breeding a lot of dogs so in order to get to this it took a lot of homework to come up with the right matings
To answer your question Tina I do not think inbreeding is actually frowned on .it is done now and then as a one off for a purpose and then an outcross usually follows to prevent doubling up on the faults .
Mari

hi mari, thanks for answering my post, very imformative, thanks, tina

As it's her first ltter why not let them all go and keep an eye on their development. If they come on nicely then repeat the breeding - if they don't or there's something you'd like to change then try to breed that out the next time.

Please bear in mind that I don't breed so it's just a suggestion. :)

Fiona
x x x

HI FIONA

THANKS FOR YOUR COMMENTS.
I'M REALLY IN TWO MINDS, PART OF ME SAYS 'KEEP ONE AND RUN IT ON SEE HOW SHE GOES'
AND THE OTHER (SENSIBLE) PART SAYS ' ITS YOUR FIRST LITTER, SELL THEM ALL, KEEP ONE NEXT LITTER'

I'M SOOOOOOO CONFUSED

DI :CONFUSED: :)

I couldn't breed as I'd keep all of them - I couldn't bear to part with them!!

Fiona
x x x

Sorry if this sounds unkind, its not meant to, but why on earth are you breeding from her, if you are not going to keep a puppy? The very minimum age would be over two years of age. Not a lot more I am willing to say about this posting!!!

hi phillipa

i DO want to keep a puppy from her, but space is a bit limited (live on estate) and have three kennels at moment, so have to think of neighbours a bit here. my intention is to breed, possibly keeping one back, and hence starting my own line. but as with everything its not always as straightforward as that is it?! i gather you dont agree with me or have i mis-understood your reply?


di

Hi Di, sorry if my first post sounded a bit gruff, I didnt mean to take the joy out of your babies, and I truly wish you well with your litter.
Its just that I have very strong feelings about people breeding "just for the sake of it" "it will be good for the children to see" "its a bit of easy cash" " bitches need to have a litter" and other various quotes people give when breeding a litter with no intention of keeping one themselves!!
I am not saying for one minute that ANY of these were your reasons, you obviously want to breed your own line, and we all have to have our first litter at some time. I just felt that if you were not sure that you were in a position to keep one, perhaphs your breeding programme should have been put on hold for a little while. Nevertheless, I wish you a happy and healthy mum and litter, and hope you enjoy the experience, and ARE able to keep a pup at the end of it:D

Hi Phillipa

Thanks for replying again - sorry I didn't mean to seem rude with my last comment, its just that being our first litter, wondered other peoples thoughts on it. I would love to keep one (and hopefully will - numbers and type allowing) but can i please stress that i am certainly NOT breeding for any of the reasons you mentioned as i totally disagree with them whole heartedly.
I will post when shes delivered and let you know how it goes

Di :)

Hi Di

Good luck with your forthcoming litter - as you say you may not have any bitches. My inclination would be to wait, see how the pups develop and maybe keep one in a few years time if all goes well. You may even find that you have one back for rehoming in the future so you could rethink then if necessary.

You don't say how old the mum to be is but if she is a youngster and you have a four month old they the three of them would all get old and frail at around the same time - thus the chance of losing them all very close together. If you try to keep at least 2 years between keeping pups this gives you chance to really get on with training one before you have to start on the next.

Like the others I would like to see your youngster at least two years old before mating her

Christine
PS Fiona - If you ever had a litter I very much doubt by the time they reached 7 - 9 weeks old you would still want to keep them all :D

hi

thanks for your comments,
mum (Amber) is two and a half now.
puppy (India) born in may this year.

Di

Cleopatra,
I am confued by your comment that a repeat mating will not produce as good offspring as the first. Why on earth not, I have never heard this said and wonder about the logic behind it. Can you enlighten me ?
Ted

Hi ted, I have often heard this commented on, but I dont know why either!!

Dizzy - you going to comment ? Berry is from a repeat mating of Casey's parents isn't she ? And to date all the signs are looking good that the 2nd litter is every bit as good as the first ;)

Hi Ted,
To tell you the truth i am not 100% sure of the ins and outs of it, i was told this when i was going to get a pup from a repeat mating that had produced the best in puppy in my breed at crufts the year before. I was advised by a very successful breeder that repeat matings just dont produce the quality of the first - something to do with chromosomes with memeory or something - she did explain it to me but i was never very good with biology!
It turned out that she was right too - the bitch had a very difficult delivery (was fine first time with 6 pups) had a ceasar - and one pup died: the remaining three were not quality at all - they all seemed huge and massively overdone at even 6 weeks old - and disappeared out of the placings after minor puppy...
Sorry that that wasn't much of an explanation - mabe someone else will know better than me!

Cleo

Do you think it might be something to do with raised expectations and hoping for too much
Anne

Cava no I dont.
I think it is compared to old wifes tales imop.
Mari

Ditto Mari. PS - could you please ring me. We seem to have an e-mail block (0044) 01835 823074

Sharon :D :D and your not answering your phone either.
I have emailed you again if you dont get it I will ring you between 6 and 6.30 lol Mari

Hi cleopatra, never heard this one before! We often do repeat matings if we have been pleased with the first, some are succesful, some not. Two cases in point in favour - Englebert has just gained his Sh Ch title at 14 months, his baby sister (repeat mating) is now looking very promising (early days yet, of course). Choice, who is the mum of Arabella & Ambrose (Top Gundogs 2000, 2001, and Arabella in the lead this year) came into the UK in whelp with them, having previously had a litter to the same dog in the USA. All 5 from the first litter gfinished there titles, several being very big winners. The repeat litter here apart from Arabella & Ambrose, also contained the dog who is (I think) current top gundog in Ireland, and a fourth is a Ch in Malta! As far as I can see, more in favour than against!
Gwen

We often do repeat matings if we have been pleased with the first, some are succesful, some not. LOL!! That's why I've got 3 kids - I was pleased with the first mating so went on to repeat it!!

Jonathon and Isabelle (and Imogen) are the spitting image of each other - so I suppose in that respect the 'mating' was successful - but Eloise is nothing like them at all. She is however, identical to my cousins daughter.

I suppose it stands to reason that where some siblings look alike, some puppies from repeat matings will look alike.

Fiona
x x x

Hi,
the chances of getting a flyer in a repeat breeding are about as likely as one of the siblings of the good un being as good. If the whole litter were of above ordinary quality then there is merit to a repeat breeding if say you wanted a bitch, but the best ones were all dogs.

I think the idea you are quoting comes from the fact that you may not get as good as you had before, and be disappointed.

In a numerically small breed like my own I do not think repeat matings are helpful. If the first was a great success, then the likelihood is that exhibitors/breeders may want more of the same, and then you have narrowed the gene pool. The mating would have merit if for some reason the exceptional animal was unable to be used for breeding ( I am thinkin something like Roasa Bleu the top sheltie who had pyometra after first season and was spayed), then having a brother sister to carry on the line has value.

I could have taken the easy option and mated my champions mother to the same dog, but instead I am waiting until I can use the young male that I and my friends have imported, thereby widening the available genes, whilst still using a bitch that has produced well.

I think fionas human example really explains it well. Some of her children are like each other, but one is quite different.