Another issue I have is whether I am crazy to think that I can start from scratch with my 4 yr old Lab.  He had all the right characteristics but I did not get started early enough and failed him when it came to properly socialising, as he was my first dog.  This has resulted in his main vice of not returning when I call until he's had a sniff of his potential new friend.
When other dogs are not around he returns every time and retrieves very well but has a tendency to drop the dummy to shake when retrieving from water which cost us first place in an event earlier this year.
He loves to please as do all Labs and he is fine when out with a gun.
The other problem I need to get rid of is he will not wait to be sent and I have to hold him, which is hopeless in a field trial.  Although he does mark very well and is good in heavy cover.
All of his faults I take responsibility for, but I'm keen to start again if possible.
Any advice?

I'd start from scratch with the waiting - start in a boring place, home is usually the best as he's used to it, and start building it up as you would a new dog.  When you've got, say, a minute under his furry belt, then start at a few second again and start adding distractions - boring kibble next to him, you moving around, and build it up again until he won't move while you're waving arms, leaping about, throwing toys (loo rolls to start, building to his favourites or something similar).  Don't try to progress too quickly - set yourself clear goals, such as 5,10, or 15 seconds and build it up a couple of seconds at a time, and don't move on until he's consistent at each step.  Once he's fine indoors start moving outdoors - but, you will probably have to go back a step in a new environment and build it up again.  When he's really steady just about anywhere (I have a list of places to train, different environments and I work through them for each cue), then you can introduce the dummy.  Again you might have to back up a little and build up to where you were before as obviously the dummy is very exciting for him!

As for the recall - basically the same thing, although with a good start now you probably won't need to go right back to the start.  Make a list of everything that distracts him during a recall, work out the least thru most distracting and try and set up situations with each, working up to the most distracting - dogs, I assume!  Again, don't move on to the next until he is consistently recalling from the previous, slightly less distracting thing.  If you find yourself in a situation with loose dogs and him running to them - don't use your normal recall cue!  Sounds odd, but it'll teach him that he can ignore it (you may have a bit of work to do already to unteach him that), and every time he does it gets harder to retrain.  With my dogs I have a few different cues - their names or an individual whistle (not using one, I whistle I mean) for low distraction situations, or two pips on an acme whistle for high distraction, there's a fair bit more training going into that one than their names so that I know they've got a solid recall even if they ignore their names.

Be thankful he's going to say hello to a potential friend - I've just taken on a new dog, also not well socialised as a pup (she's 5), and she reacts very badly to strange dogs.  IMO it's easier to train a recall in a dog that doesn't see other dogs as a threat than one that thinks she needs to see them off immediately!

Thanks for the advice, but I've thought of some thing else.  When he does retrieve he will bring the dummy back but drop it at my feet and then pace backwards waiting for me to throw it again. (Another mistake of mine!)
Whats the best way to get him used to giving to hand and then waiting for the next direction rather than fixed on the first dummy?
Also any advice on how to get him to hold the dummy and not shake until he's delivered following a water retrieve?

When my old lab was a bit dodgy at retrieves (it's a long time back so my memory is also a bit dodgy!) when she approached we used to move backwards to keep her coming towards us. We'd slow down but keep her moving forwards, and not stop until we had hold of the dummy. She was very quick on the uptake and soon delivered beautifully to hand, even to a blind person.

I'm not sure if you would consider clicker training but I learnt a fab method for my dog bringing me back articles in the search square to hand :)

It involves teaching the dog to target the hand, and then to do it with an article (or dummy) in their mouth. Also avoids a lot of problems like backing off etc as it's
trained in such a different way. I'd only suggest going to a very good clicker trainer though, if you are by any chance in Kent there is a fab trainer there who I'm sure could help (pm if you want contact details...)

If you'd prefer to go down the more traditional route, someone fab who was always so helpful is John Weller, I've almost lost touch with him now but someone may have his email address or else you may come across him on a gundog forum.

Lindsay
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Not wanting to pinch the thread, but thanks for that target tip Lindsay - never would've thought of that, and I'm having trouble getting Remy to keep hold of his dumbell after he's brought it to me.  Will give that a try!

Hi Nikita, it involved clicking and treating for holding the dumbbell (in this case we used this as it was easy to pick up) and of course dog drops dumbbell in between, we got a real hold-click-drop-treat-hold-click-drop-treat rhythm going. Then, separately, teach the hand target. Then, put the 2 together by putting dumbbell down, dog picks it up, then as dog just moves head off floor with dumbbell in mouth, quickly put your hand, palm open as you've trained to target, right by the dumbbell/dog's mouth and dog should automatically touch hand with dumbbell - it was so amazing, Anne Bussey showed me (and we got 20/20 for our first square :D).

YOu can then go on to withhold click until the dog will target/push hand twice, so the dog learns to hold dumbbell and push into the hand ... love it! :P

Sorry don't want to nick the thread but it may be useful to others :)
Best with a clicker savvy dog though.

Lindsay
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Thanks for that.  He'll hold it for a good 10 seconds, give or take, it's just that he won't keep hold of it when he reaches me.  I've been working on getting him to sit with the dumbell in his mouth, but that's been about as successful as him standing and holding.

Sounds like a plan thank you

Hi I have John's details so will Pm you :)

Lucy
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Hi I have John's details so will Pm you

Lucy
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If you speak to him at some point, do pass on my best regards, Lucy :)

Lindsay
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Of course I will :)

Lucy
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Of course I will

Lucy
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Thanks Lucy :)

Lindsay
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Helen Phillips has written a book called Clicker Gundog which goes into how to teach the retrieve.  It works by breaking the retrieve down into several discreet exercises (eg mark, run out, pick up, run back with article in mouth, present and delivery) and building the chain up BACKWARDS!  It does work!

I have John's e-mail address and will pass it on if OP PMs me.

I'm no expert at all (have done a TINY bit of gundog training with mine), but gleaned from my video of flatcoat training, they suggested A) teaching them a command for shaking so they'll shake on command and B) actually putting some waders / wellies on and getting the dummy delivered to hand in the water before the dog gets out and it occurs to him to shake. HTH. Don't know if they do a labrador training for the gun video, but they probably do.

Yes, they do.  It's got a green cover but that isn't much help!!  It's a good video (I've got the spaniel training one) - I'll have a search and try and post a link.

http://www.turnerrichards.co.uk/acatalog/Gundog_Training_Videos_Page_1.html

I think it's the Halstead one I've seen but I'm sure they are all worth a look.

Oh well as I'm starting proper gundog training with my youngish Spanish I will come into this thread too :d  When she comes back with the dummy she turns round and sits with her back to me, how can  I stop this?

Hi, I did some working tests with my Flatcoat a few years back and used to train down by our local river by running away from him like a mad thing as he was coming out of the water. Luckily he was the type of dog who couldn't bear to be too far from me so was more interested in where I was going to stop and shake. Once he caught up with me I would take the dummy and then tell him "shake". He soon learned what shake meant and we eventually moved on to him sitting and me taking the dummy before he shook. (Mind you when it came to an actual test he would have to take the dummy round to show eveyone else before presenting it to me of course!)