Something that has been buzzing about in my head for ages.

Back in the mists of time, about 18 yrs I think, I started to claim Tax Credits.  I think it was quite a new idea then, it was new to me anyway.  The idea was to encourage people into work - good plan.  I was a single mum with 5 children, the last one under one year, and my husband had left three months before he was born (no this is not a sob story it does have a happy ending).  I was encouraged to retrain for work.  My sons now 10 months, 5,7,14 and 16 all my responsibility.  The government very kindly paid for my youngest son to go to a childminder full time and for the 5 and 7 year old to be looked after after school and the holidays.  The other boys had their tea with gran so not to bad except I didn't see much of any of them.  By the time I got back from work/training and bathed and fed the little one I was too tired to do much about playing with the others but hey! I was a success story in the eyes of the government - single mum lots of children back to work earning her keep did I mention I have a disability.  They hit the jackpot with me I must have cost the government a lot more than I saved them.

Anyhow, what I am trying to say is I am probably one of the many thousands who did this and who are still doing it and the children some of the 10s of thousands who are with childminders and in nurseries, not necessarily a bad thing, but where did the family go.  Before my relaunch into work (I was working part time when my partner was around) we  used to go on long walks, feed the ducks, paddle in local reservoirs and generally do things together.  Very soon my boys learned to rely on each other, play in their rooms and generally stop communicating with me.  As they got older the situation changed and they became closer to me again and told me how proud of me they were for being a success.

What exactly was I successful at, certainly not being a mother or fostering family values, but I did learn how to get as much as I could from WTC and be out of the house 8 hours a day 5 and a half days a week.

Now I know Tony didn't start the ball rolling but he cant all of a sudden stop it by imposing restrictions on people, ASBO's and the like - as most the kids I know with them wear them as a badge of honour - would it not pay to put some of this child minding money back into the family coffers and encourage mums to stay at home more and be paid to study towards a new job part time (less than 16 hours), if that's what is required.  They continue to try and abolish the Child Benefit, which was to encourage us to have children after the war I believe (I am not that old so I could be wrong), now they find there are not enough children up and coming to support us oldies but they still want people to work till they drop, send their children to be looked after by others ,who are not allowed to discipline them, and wonder why subsequent generations are not having children or waiting until it is too late to start. 

The mind boggles.  I have only one grandchild, not planned but much loved non the less, after the oldest being with his partner since school over 14 years.  Non of my other sons plan on having a family, seeing how I struggled and feeling they don't have the commitment to raise children properly and also wanting a decent standard of living for themselves.  These are children of the WTC era Fostering Family Values.

What are your views

Interesting post.

Yes, I agree. Mums should be paid/subsidised to stay at home and nurture their families. However, it won't happen because in enabling you to go to work by subsidising childcare they get tax back out of your pay - so they're not really that generous after all. Its simply a long, never ending cycle. You earn, you pay tax, you pay your childminder, they pay tax - everything we do swells the coffers of the government and we really cannot win.

I actually think that the decline in parents having large families has a lot to do with the lack of maturity and responsibility in families. In the older days parents would have multiple children and the older children would be required to help look after the younger ones. I see it happening in my own family with my 12 year old daughter having to help out around the house - as opposed to being sat in her room on a Playstation or whatever. Its also a fantastic contraceptive as she knows just how hard it is to have newborn babies - not quite the romantic vision some teenagers fall in love with...

I do agree it is better for mums to be at home as much as possible through the childs formative years - but not if those mums are lazy s*ds who do nothing with the children than let them roam the streets whilst they sit on their bums reading Take a Break magazine.

I am not entirely sure how this country will break the vicious circle its currently in - but I do know its reaching breaking point.

You're quite right, it's not possible to support a family on one hand while encouraging it to split (with parent/s at work, children at minders) on the other. When I walk to the newsagent each morning I see a couple loading their daughters, still in pyjamas, half asleep, into the car to be taken to be looked after by someone else. Children and parents are encouraged to live separate lives, not even having meals together most of the time. They have few shared family memories because their lives rarely touch. As children learn by imitation and experience how are they going to know how to run a family when they've never experienced one - only blood relations sharing a home?

It's an enormous problem, a very sad situation, and very nearly at meltdown.

I blame a lot of the problems these days on the huge rise in housing prices, whilst the average wage remains low in comparison.

How on earth can someone on £25K a year support a house worth £200K, plus a wife and family? Council tax is rising, utility bills are rising. The cost of living is huge. This is what is forcing mums out to work IMO.

Expectations are higher too, of course. What not so long ago was a luxury is seen as a necessity nowadays. 'Doing without' and living within a budget (how many people don't live on credit cards?) seems to have all but disappeared.

House prices are not only driven upwards by estate agents, but also demand is constantly rising, partly because of the rising numbers of divorces - where there used to be one home per family, now there's two ... :(

I think a lot of what were luxury items are now essentials... for example we have to have 2 cars. I wish we didn't - I hate paying out for cars. We don't go on holiday though - couldn't afford it for a start with 6 of us.

I'm thinking of things like designer clothes, ready-meals, satellite TV which nobody actually needs - I mean, they won't actually die without them! :D And loads of people do seem to think that annual foreign holidays are essential.

If you read Mr Blairs views very carefully you will find out that Mothers are to blame for almost everything ..PLUS there is nothing they can do to win ...if they work there children will be delinquints , if they stay at home they are not productive (oh and we don't earn stamps for pension)

;)

If you get Child Benefit you automatically get NI credits for pension. :)

So why do they keep writing to me and asking me to make up the shortfall? ;) I have claimed CB since 1976......always had a child under 16 since then and worked before then :)

Ask them where they think the shortfall came from.  You are entitled to credits towards you pension as long as you receive Child Benefit.  They sometimes make mistakes.

"So why do they keep writing to me and asking me to make up the shortfall?  I have claimed CB since 1976......always had a child under 16 since then and worked before then "

they only give you 19 years protection for your pensions I have the same problem I have been a full time mum since 1978, I phoned them about the letters I keep getting they say after the 19 years to get a full pension you need to pay in

LOL so you are only allowed to be a fulltime mum for 19 years?? Great considering there are 18 years between my oldest and youngest ;)

I know its a joke my oldest child is 22 years older than the youngest so I still have another 10 years of being a full time mum

My youngest is only 13 :D

my youngest is just 7

Whatever happened to the "if you havn't got the money don't buy it" theory. When my children were young I worked part time evenings to help out. I lived away from family and so no easy childminders and if the money was not in my purse we went without. I paid of a bit a week for christmas pressies and only got them when they were paid for. My kids did not have thedesigner gearthat seems to be so necessary now, they made do with what I could afford. They had no trouble with peer pressureand had plenty of friends. My house was functional and clean if not all mod con's and we had a happy life. The kids enjoyed such thigs as dog walking free picnics and trips to the beach (luckily within walking distance) We had just the one car and did a big shop once a week in the car, hubby worked Mon to Fri and had the car I worked 4 evenings in a resteraunt and had it then.Any small shopping in the week was done at the local shops, Good for local community and better for the environment as well.
I now have two well adjusted children and four happy grandchildren but even I see the way they seem to think they should have things they cannot afford and the constant barage of credit hounds makes even my kids spend moore than they should or indeed can afford. They do take time to play with thier kids and they also enjoy the free things in life but it seems that all the time they are pressurized into overspending.
Maybe some retribution from the powers that be towards the establishments who encourage folk to take out huge loans and credit cards and giving ludicrously large mortgages to those who so obviousley cannot afford to repay them might just start to readjust the balance. After all house prices rise by demand and if the demand slows because people cannotget a mortgage because they cannot afford to pay them back then the prices will drop accordingly. IMO if banks etc. lost out sometimes because they were stupid in thier lending maybe they would look closer at thier management of such things.
Rant over!!!!

How on earth can someone on £25K a year support a house worth £200K, plus a wife and family? Council tax is rising, utility bills are rising. The cost of living is huge. This is what is forcing mums out to work IMO.

Not easily but it's certainly possible - well OK I don't have an OH to support but we certainly manage!  It takes thought, careful planning and compromise but it's no hardship I can assure you.

PS I'd love to earn as much as 25k!

Let me rephrase it - how can someone on 25K a year support a mortgage of £200K - without going bankrupt that is?

House prices wouldn't rise as fast if mortgage lenders went back to the old system of lending a maximum of 2½ times joint salaries. If these high mortgages (I read some are saying 5x now! ) weren't available then the smaller houses at high prices just wouldn't sell, and the estate agents would lower the prices.

Credit card companies have a lot to answer for. I recently received an offer of a new credit card with a 'guaranteed credit limit of £8,000'!! Seeing that OH and I are both on Jobseeker's Allowance (joint income of £90 a week which we have to live off, and cover bills) there's no way on earth we could pay back the interest on that, so I shredded the letter. But some people would surely take it up, and would soon spiral into uncontrollable debt.

I thought you were working at the Vets JG??? Have I missed something??

Also, years ago I can rmember an interest rate of over 14%!!!!!! Now it's a little over 5%?? Maybe that's why people borrow too much??

Yes I do work at the vet's but only part-time. Anything less than 16 hours a week (there's only 6 hours available unless someone's ill or on holiday) doesn't qualify for NI contributions and you have you keep signing on every fortnight if you want the credits. OH gets £50 a week JSA and I get my £33 wages.

When we took out our mortgage interest rates were about 15%. If they did that before they can do it again, and these poor people who are struggling to repay 5% will be right up the creek without a paddle. :(

And yes we mothers are a shocking lot are we not.  We work all the hours God sends then come home to keep house, get clothes ready for morning and OH the shame - take a ready meal out of the fridge and straight into the microwave.  Many of us are lucky enough to have partners who help with the kids, do the runs to after school clubs and functions but in the main we are responsible for it all and probably the end of it all to if the politicians are to be believed. 

What ever happened to mum the nutritionist, mum the psychologist, mum the nurse, mum the playmate, mum the best friend, mum who was there!.  Most of us soon developed the above talents when faced with crying babies, terrible two's, school yard scuffles and teenage blues when we were allowed to do it.  We all got brainwashed into thinking we could do it all and work and look like goddesses as well.

Pass the soap box!!!!!!!!!

I am beginning to look like a goddess by the way,  The goddess of GREY HAIR & WRINKLES

Oh the bliss of just having doggies to worry about now the kids have gone on to other lives, mind you we Mums still worry about them even if they don't worry about us!!
Glad others feel the credit agencies have a lot to answer for! They like to get thier twopennyworth even if at the expence of others who they lured into debt in the first place?

We all got brainwashed into thinking we could do it all

This is why I've always admired those who didn't allow themselves to get brainwashed - those who realised the importance of seeing their kids off to school every morning and being there for them when they got home every afternoon.  I think it's called 'getting your priorities right' ! :)

I am not brain washed and do not always see my kids off for school everyday or see them when they get home :)

My children go and have gone to an after kids club/nursery and have a great time with loads to do and quiet places do do their homework with other children :)

I have always worked but have never said yes to everything they have asked for :) The opposite in actual fact :) I have always been brought up to know that if you want something you work for it as you can't always rely on getting the money from other sources :)

I quite admire myself in some respects for what I have achieved now having a good career and two very health , happy children :)

Yep. My children have often chosen to go to after school club even though I am at home LOL.

I don't think working mums should be blamed for everything. I work and my children certainly wouldn't be allowed to get away with some of the behaviour that comes from some of the kids who spend their lives with their mums!

Its all about attitude, taking responsibility and raising your children to be mature, responsible adults. It is possible to do that when both parents work :)

>I don't think working mums should be blamed for everything.

If you read my post it says that BOTH types of mum are to blame and that mums can't win ;)

That is very true Mel as we all get the blame for others failings :)

Responsibility is what is lacking today.  Responsiblilty for ourselves, our children, our finances.  It is all too easy to blame the government, the peer pressure, the credit card companies.  We (I say that loosly) seem to think we have the right to have all the mod cons, the annual holiday, someone else to finance our lifestyle. 

What happened to 'If we can't afford it, we don't have it'. 

In this country we have safeguards for those who find themselves in an unfortunate position through no fault of their own ie job redundancies, partner left the famiily.  What is wrong is bailing out those who choose to have children who are not in a position financially to have them, those that run up debt, just because they must have a certain lifestyle.

If we stopped as a country financing these people we could afford to give the elderly, the severely disabled and the short term unemployed the proper help they need.

Parents should also be made responsible for their children who break the law and make other peoples lives a misery.

I find the whole situation very sad.

Agreed

It is fine to work and have kids and it is fine to stay at home with your kids ..what really matters (IMHO) is taking responsibility FOR those kids no matter what type of mum you are :)

(Speaking as a mum to 5 ...most of whom had a stay at home mum for the majority of the time, two of whom have had a mum who goes out to work)

Agree too, responsibility and common sense are so missing in todays society.
Karen

It is fine to work and have kids and it is fine to stay at home with your kids ..what really matters (IMHO) is taking responsibility FOR those kids no matter what type of mum you are :-)

Couldn't have said it better. 

We need to stop this blame culture in the UK and just take responsibility for our own.

It is worse than that.  If we were to suddenly stop 'bailing out' the people you mention, and I guess a lot more could be added to the list, we would suddenly have children below the poverty line again and suffering greatly.  I know of quite of few people who have gone head over heels in debt, remortgaged again and again but spent the money that comes in on luxury items instead of paying the bills and then lost their home.  Some of these people lost their jobs as well because they were dealing with other peoples money and were not deemed responsible enough to do this! Believe me it does happen in the financial sector. 

They then went on to whinge about how unfair it all was and how they were pressured into doing it.  Now the medical profession thinks it could be an illness all this overspending and not being able to stop until they are stopped.  Then lo and behold after declaring themselves bankrupt and waiting the now 12 months not 3 years as it was they get inundated with credit card offers and off they go again.

It would be great if the children left in these catastrophic circumstances could be separated out from the adults and taught how to live within their means or would it?  I doubt the adults would be suffering and how do we not bail out the adults but bail out the children.

We have come too far down this sad and sorry road and something has to give soon, my guess would be a drop in house prices when the banks realise the millions of pounds they are owed in bad debts are getting written off more and more and that some people just cant pay.  Credit cards will have higher interest repayment rates and mortgage rates change. 

If it does all go full circle, youngsters will be able to buy houses at reasonable prices and living may not depend on credit.  For some of us this will be bad news for others wanting to get on the property ladder excellent news.

those who realised the importance of seeing their kids off to school every morning and being there for them when they got home every afternoon.  

Can people not work and do this at the same time or some of the time?

I have always worked full time. Wouldn't have it any other way. fortunate enough to work partly from home now but I do not see any disadvantage to what I have done or how it has affected my daughter in anyway. When I couldn't see her off my paid child minder did ( Her grandmother) . My daughter has a lovely relationship with my mother, one I am almost envious of.

I am not convinced that there is a priority issue here at all. My daughter's best freind wants nothing more than to get married and have kids right away and live happily every after :rolleyes:, her mother did the same. I am happy for people who are happy that this is their making. For me it wasn't and isn't now and never will be, I doubt it would be for my daughter either.

I wanted both and didnt rely on anyone or anything to have it.

We do what is right for "our own" families and our own personal goals and needs. Not everyone feels the need to work if they have financial support, for me I could never ever have been a full time mum at home. Never ever. The thought of that alone makes me feel sick :-) 

Society is falling to bits without a doubt but it isn't because of full time mums :-) it is because as a society we are allowing it to fall to pieces.

All through my daughter's life we have had routines, family swimming on Wednesday's we would pick a different swimming pool each week and have our dinner out, Sunday breakfast always was cooked together and still is, evening dinner always together. We would do the shopping on a Thursday night together. A major important thing I think Kids should experience. How many kids grow up thinking the food is always in the cupboard as the mother gets it all during the day :-)

I genuinely believe based on my own experience when my daughter was growning up I spent more one to one and family time with her than most "at home" mothers.  When you think time is a little restricted you value it more I think :-)

    I wouldn't or don't want to turn this thread into another working mum V at home mum because either done properly produces good kids, either done poorly produces or next generations of lazy troublesome kids.