I started showing my borzoi in january 05. I was only just 16, i had all the time in the world. The first few shows were open which were quite boring, then i went to a few champs, which were W.E.L.K.S, L.K.A, East of England, Bath, and Driffield. Now i must say she didn't really win much, but alot of people there told me if your not well known you won't get picked and unless you have 2 or more dogs you don't stand a chance, very true. I always saw the same people and the same people winning. L.K.A i was very annoyed, in my dogs class there was about 20,my bitch behaved impeccably when she was seen and i was pleased, anyway that class was over we didn't win anything but i never minded.

I was watching the dogs being judged, all was going well until this very obese hound was took to the judge, while it trotted around the ring it was limping on one of it's back legs, now i thought that dog can't possibly get placed it's not in good shape and it's limping, when it came to placing the dogs, this one got 1st! I couldn't beleive it! To top it off he won BOB!

Now my rant over, i want to get back into showing my borzoi but it's not that simple. I didn't ever really enjoy it, but i want to get known in the showring as my bitch i think is an excellent example of her breed, how they should be. She is sleek, athletic, muscular, beautiful eyes, veining, her coat is an easy to look after length. I know there are a few borzoi breeders out there keeping these hounds how they once looked, but far too many are destroying the breed. Alot of borzoi's are overweight, have far too much coat (should be bigger rough collies), eyes are geting too big, and they just aren't as elegant as they once were, very heavy footed. 

The problem is i can't get to many shows because of work. Most shows have hounds on a friday, the only time i get off work are thursdays and alternate weekends, and the shows i want to go to aren't when i need them to be. Will they ever be changed? I also go to alot of game fairs with my lurchers as i show and race them, these are much more enjoyable, so really the only time i have to show my borzoi is thursdays and alternate saturdays, oh and the winter months as there are no game fairs.

How does everyone else have time to show their dogs and how do you stop yourselves going mad when a dog wins that shouldn't?

Firstly, you're not alone :D We all come home after a days judging and wonder what the judge was looking at Unless we win, of course ;) Take not e of which judge actually looks at the dogs, and places roughly how you would place them yourself. These are the judges you want to show under. The ones that place lame, unfit dogs are the ones to avoid. IMHO :)

The day that each group is shown is usually rotated to give everyone a chance, though it takes a couple of years for the day you want to come up :) If you don't enjoy the champ shows then why not stick to the local shows? Limited and Open shows are much more fun, I've found. The atmosphere isn't quite so intense. If you do decide to go to Champ shows you just have to take the good with the bad. Not everyone will like your dog, but if she is good enough someone will like her. It's finding the judges that like her that takes time. Can her breeder not help you out in choosing the judges? Surely a breeder has a better idea of which judge would like her type. :)

You need to be very careful when listing shows and running down the BOB winners zoiangel as it's all to easy to check the results and find out who you're talking about. I know it can be dissapointing when your dog doesn't win, after all you of course think she is the most beautiful borzoi ever (as you should) but you do need to be more objective about it. Showing isn't all about being known, you may find the same people win a lot because they've been showing/breeding for years and know how to choose a good puppy and present it well for the ring. Checking LKA results for last year the BOB winner came from open bitch, I know this bitch and the breeder well, and don't believe it would be shown overweight. Usually this breeders dogs are in good hard condition - she does however carry a heavy coat which may have made you think she was overweight. It's difficult to comment on a dog unless you actually go over it :)  Perhaps you could ask a few people who are winning if you can go over their dogs as this is the only way to learn.

The borzoi standard says the following about their coat- Silky, flat, wavy or rather curly (but never woolly). Short and smooth on head, ears and front of legs; much longer on body with heavy feathering on backs of legs and hindquarters, tail and chest. Neck carries a large curly frill. More profuse in dogs than bitches.

I would suggest you go to as many champ shows as you can, there will be some that are on Saturdays :)  Ask a lot of advice, ask others opinions of your girl too. Watch how the other dogs are presented and move. I never minded people asking to go over my dogs.

Thankyou for the replys I've taken it all in. I think i'll start again in february once xmas and new year are over. I will get in touch with her breeder about the judges. Also another quick question, can you show a spayed bitch?

> can you show a spayed bitch?

Yes, but the vet that does the op is supposed to report it to the Kennel Club & then the KC send you a letter to confirm that you're OK to show, I think.

can you show a spayed bitch?

All you have to do is write to the Kennel Club yourself and inform them.

Debs

The thing is it takes time and, if you are willing to learn, you  get an 'eye' for a dog.    It's amazing when you look back, dog's you thought were lovely/horrible at the time can on reflection look totally different to you when your knowledge of conformation can change as you become more familiar with your breed.    Some people never get an 'eye', they can go on for years & years showing & breeding stock that rarely hits the high spots whereas some can just show/breed consistent winning stock for themselves & others.

At the end of the day, you love your dog, you take her home & you live with her everyday - showing is just one judges opinion.   At the end of the day, if you don't agree with what they've done you don't give them an entry again but the results stand and nothing can change them!

If your dog went to all those shows and didn't win anything, and the same dogs kept on winning might it not just be that they are more correct than yours? We all think our dog is perfect when we start out - to be honest we know almost nothing at that stage but don't realise it - I know I was like that.
It is only when you start to be able to appreciate the good in other dogs and see the faults in your own that you will ever start to make real progress.

I think you should be very careful about making comment on here about dogs and judges, as has already been said. I can assure you thet the LKA 2005 BOB winning Borzoi is a beautiful moving bitch.

I think the OP is talking about this years' LKA as 'he' was mentioned as BOB winner, which indeed was male this year? Last year was female. I read it that the OP started showing in 2005 but the list of shows takes us to this years LKA

You could be right Missie, my original remarks actually stand for this dog too. I know it's owner well and he always presents dogs in good, hard condition. This dog also carries a heavy coat :D :D :D

Personally I wouldn't say much bad about top winning titled dogs being completly awful (of course they may have bad points, not be your type etc)

I remeber once seeing a dog in my breed from outsdie the ring and thought he was cracking.  I really did love him for everything and his now a champion, however when I judged him at an open show I put up a bitch BOB over him who from outsdie the ring did nothing for me, when I saw her in the ring from a judges POV she was lovely and I saw his faults.

Both dogs are now champions and still worthey of their titles but I shocked myself and my dad with who I placed where that day.

What I'm trying to say is from the sides of the ring you can't see what the judge see's.

I've seen may dogs look overweight from ringside but when you feel them it's heavy coat and or muscle!

>i was very annoyed, in my dogs class there was about 20,my bitch behaved impeccably when she was seen and i was pleased, anyway that class was over we didn't win anything but i never minded.

Hm there were only 54 Borzoi's entered & the biggest class was only 12 entries

I was told years ago..you don't start winning CC's until you start giving them   Does make you think!!

you don't start winning CC's until you start giving them

What utter rot.  Do you honestly think the KC would pass someone to award CCs if they'd never won one?

Debs

Personally I think most of all of this (you have to be wellknown etc) isn't true, but just to add that in my breed we have judges that have been giving tickets for years without ever having won any -one reason being that Malinois didn't get any until this year of course so it wasn't possible if they had Malinois only, but I also know people who have had the had the hairy Belgians (who have had tickets for much longer) and give tickets without having won any.

What utter rot.  Do you honestly think the KC would pass someone to award CCs if they'd never won one?


There are loads and loads of judges giving Cc's that havent won one. What made you think that was a rule.

I am not agreeing with the previous poster just pointing out that you do not have to have won a CC to judge.

There are loads and loads of judges giving Cc's that havent won one. What made you think that was a rule.

You're right of course.  It's not a rule.  Not sure about the 'loads and loads of judges' - I guess you go by your own experiences. After almost 30 years of showing, I don't personally know of anyone who's passed to award CCs who hasn't won one.  Any CC judge will, of course, have had to have shown that they have owned or bred quality dogs first ;)  That's more what I was getting at in my original post.

Debs

Of course they do!!! What a strange thing to say. There are several champ show judges in our breed who have not won CC's!!

Makes you think of what exactly???

Sorry definitely not true.  I have never judged (not quite true I did do an exemption show 20 years ago!:rolleyes:) but have acquired a collection of CCs.

I have owned/bred CC & RCC winners too.    I have only judged my breed at an open show ONCE in over 18 years of having the breed.   Yet there are people who have owned my breed a lot less longer than me, never bred/owned a CC/RCC winner giving out CC's - makes you wonder about this 'judging' system.

I, too, know people in our Breed that have never bred a CC winner, never won a CC, yet still Judge the Breed for CC's!

I think it depends on the people. If you want a judging career there are ways I guess to go chasing it. Some people are happy showing.

There are some people  I really respect as judges but don't have CCs or loads of them anyway, I also know of people with loads who I wouldn't really put as my favorite judges.   A lot of breeding and acheiving CCs is often luck. Well until the breeders start getting mutiple CCs with Multipe dogs , I think this is where skill starts showing or a good eye for puppies etc. Many a humble champion dog owner will tell you that their puppy turn out good and it was really lucky.Some never get another one.

In breeds with huge entries winning top places in very strong classes is probably in my opinion as good as CCs  to them especially as some breeds have larger entries in single class as some small breeds do for the whole entry of both sexes...  I can think of many breeds were all classes are into double numbers.  We have a 3 stud dog book rule when giving CCs which I think is a good rule and it is "generally" enforced. I think the 3 stud book rule is far better than qualifying someone to judge because they have a champion.  3 stud books for me means you have to have an eye or be extremely lucky :-D :-)

I know several people who've never won CCs but who judge at championship level - even at Crufts.

is it right that you have to have a certain amount of stud book numbers before you can give CC's ?

Information on judging is given here. Apart from attending seminars, a first-time CC judge must have stewarded at 12 shows, and have been assessed by 3 established CC judges in the relevant breed.

It does seem that unless you are a face,sometimes with some judges you wont get picked... even if your dog is good... I am amazed the amount of judges who bypass good dogs for the "faces in a breed" and it is very obvious its happening because they check the wrong end of the lead out first...:rolleyes: not all judges are he same though and i have had some very posiive experiences.

is it right that you have to have a certain amount of stud book numbers before you can give CC's ?

Every breed club I know of needs you to have gained at least 3 entries in the stud book (either owned or bred) before they move you onto their A3 list.  This does not have to be in that particular breed.

It's not just the KC rules you have to get past, it's the breed club rules to get on the upper judging lists in the first place.

Debs

I should add that this may not apply to non CC breeds or breeds that have only just attained CC status ;)

Debs

I havn't been showing for a long but i havn't seen the judges being facy in my breed any way. All i have experienced is judges coming up to me and saying my dog would have been place higher (alot of judges like her) but i need to do something different. So what i am saying is that it is unlikely to get any thing when you first start because you are learning how to show your dog off to the best of its ability. Also alot depends on how much you dog shows itself off. A big example of this at the moment is yogi the vizsla who is winning everything. Now i  am not saying that he isn't a brilliant dog because he is. But had i had him instead of ziggi i dought he would have got to where he is so quickely. He also has this spark about him and he and his owner know how to get him looking his best. I have been showing for about 6 months and i no where near know all the ins and outs of showing neither do i know yet the best way to show ziggi off. I am learning and getting better but it has taken many shows of not being placed to work it out. And many thanks to the judges (i know they are not on here but i think they deserve some praise due to how much they have helped me) who have asked the stewards to come and talk to me to help me show ziggi better so that next time they may beable to place her better.

any way that is all i am saying. hope it makes sense.

I do get fed up of people whinging about corrupt judges.  Yes it happens but, in my experience, not that often.  If you've got a dog that's outstanding enough to make it then it will.  There are things along the way that might make it harder (like the dog being out of condition/coat, a useless handler who can make a good dog look awful, being up against a dog on a roll, etc) but, in the main, an outstanding dog will get it's title.

Judging from ringside is totally different from getting your hands on a dog in the ring.  It's a very dangerous route to go down.  It's also worth remembering that a large breed running in a circle will sometimes effect it's gait too.  At no time will you ever be able to see exactly what the judge sees if you are at ringside.

Debs

I do get fed up of people whinging about corrupt judges.  Yes it happens but, in my experience, not that often.

I do get fed up a little to at times , strange though they all still go to the shows. if I thought it was that corrupt I wouldn't go :-)

Thats probally why attendence numbers are down in some shows because some people have stopped going. And why should people stop going.. Things need to Change so people dont hold that view.In the main you do find most judges offer pointers to help the New handlers/novice which are extremely helpful,i find within my breed they will often have a word with you after to offer advice why you didnt get placed.(time permitting) Ie.. Bad handling or breed standard issues with the dog... Faults etc., so you can then work on what needs it. Of the shows i have been to and observed dogs placed,all have deserved there Cc's.As for Judges given Cc out, i cant imagine for the life of me surely the KC letting anyone do so who didnt have the relevent experience.

>Judging from ringside is totally different from getting your hands on a dog in the ring

It's this type of "judging" that is crippling the sport IMO.  Once upon a time placings (or lack of them) were accepted in good grace (and if necessary gripes saved for the journey home).   Now everyone is an expert after five minutes in a breed and offended at being seen as a novice if they've showed for all of 1 or 2 years :rolleyes: 

>At no time will you ever be able to see exactly what the judge sees if you are at ringside.

Couldn't agree more!

I agree ..  although its not just novice handlers making these comments. ,i have known of long time handlers /well known breeders with champions approach novices after judging and suggest non placement was because the judge was ''such & such!''(interestingly enough the dog beaten has usually been sired by one of there  own dogs)  :rolleyes:
  Personally speaking i go to shows and  except the judges opnion on my dog/my handling with good grace and take on board any constructive critisim, and learn from it. That is what we are paying for when entering under a judge there opnion on our dogs surely first and formost. The added bonus of being awarded a CC at the end of it, should they be good enough is always a welcome surprise. And if the KC has deemed them experienced enough to award said CC i also accept that. I do find it facinating the apprenticship one has to serve to no longer be classed as a novice... some breeds its 2yrs, others 5yr my own they say 10yrs at least... surely it has more to do with experience within the breed and achievements etc.. rather than length of service.. Sounds like the army LOL.

I agree with on that Tychlo, as I have heard the odd long standing breeder make the same comments normally to a novice exhibitor that is showing a dog they have bred. I think maybe they say it to make the exhibitor who bought the dog from them feel better. I have also seen several times Breeders handle dogs ( bred by them ) but owned by a novice exhibitor and be very well placed at Championship Shows, ofcourse they tend to handle them better as they are more experienced.

I am a novice exhibitor having only been showing for less than 12 months and the best advice I can give to new people is -

# Unless your dog is fantastic it's unlikely you'll do loads of winning at Championship shows.

# Have fun and try not to take it personally when you are not placed and remember both you and your dog are inexperienced and it does show.

# Practise little and often, go to ringcraft classes, local open shows, companion shows etc for experience.

# Don't give up at the first few hurdles, it is a fun hobby with the odd not so nice person ( avoid them ) and who cares if the judge dosent like your dog one day as the very very next weekend the judge could love it. It's all part of showing and if all the judges liked the same dogs and type it would be very boring and the same dogs would win everything.

# My dogs breeder bought her first dog to show about 30 years ago now and she NEVER qualified her Crufts and very rarely got placed at Champs shows, however she decided to have a litter from her and breed her first Champion from her very first litter so at that point she had only been in the breed for 4 years! From the same bitch in her second litter she had another Champion!

# There are some judges that can be facey but that also part of dog showing, if you feel that about a judge don't ever go under them again.

# YOU TAKE THE BEST DOG HOME