Can anyone help . My Dog , who has been to classes since 3 mths and now goes to two differrent classes every week . Has still got a habit of barking and lunging for cats and dogs while out on the lead , however there have been times when out on large parks he has been off lead and socialised very well with other dogs . I have tried sound distraction to no avail , I have become quite adebt at seeing a tenseness and giving the leave it command as immediate as possible . One trainer has told me its hormones at a gsd club and at another training club has said its a bad habit and will get worse and have made me put a muzzle on him during classes although he has improved within that mixed breed class .He has actually already sired successfully when 10 months but his lunges and aggressiveness WHEN ON LEAD doesn't square up as it could be a bitch or dog on the other side of the road . I must add on a positive note that he is very good on the usual commands and we are working to KC bronze , there are little lunges in the mixed class while wearing a muzzle but there are lunges when at the gsd club where we want to pass the bronze ( which I know will fail us ) I do find it hard to get his attention while walking so is it I dont give enough affection and its all do this do that and no play

the thing that helped a lot for me (although not with cats...still working on that seemingly futile dream) is, instead of coming over all stern and tense and giving leave it commands(which never worked anyway out of the class scenario)  i start talking in a very light happy silly voice showing delight at the oncoming dog,"oh look at the nice doggy" type giberish, and he stays calm then and greets nicely. they are a very clever sensitive breed and are quick to pick up on your tension which he doesnt realise is about the way you think he might behave instead he thinks you are uptight about the oncoming dog as well and tries to see if of before anything else can happen.Thats just my take on te whole thing.:rolleyes:

Thankyou so much Morgan I have thought about that and i'm determined about the cats because there is 1 next door , 5 next door but 1 , 3 next door but 2 etc etc . And your right about sensitivity because the other day when I went to take him out and I want him to sit while I put his lead on , he started to mess around jumping in and out of his kennel till I shouted NO , he carried on for 20 secs I crossed my arms and he came and sat in front Perfect , but the messing before

I think you need to change your way of training. As you say the sound averison (which equals punishment) hasn't worked, and you haven't even got as far as Bronze despite having gone to classes since 3 months -that's an awfully long time for just basics. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're failing, I'm saying the training methods are failing. I have Belgian Malinois myself, GSD like in many ways, and my dogs normally do Bronze long before their first birthday. So I'd say now's the time to take a different approach. Yes hormones can play a part, and having sired pups so early certainly won't have helped at all (and of course he can't even have had his full health screening by then as dogs have to be 12 months old for hip scoring for instance.......).

What you're doing so far is basically punishing the dog for when he lunges at others, which in his mind may well have had the opposite effect. "Another dog, that means I'll hear a bad noise or be told off, so that must mean it really is something to be bothered by." The opposite approach would be to totally ignore him when he has a go at other dogs. Walk away without a word, and as soon as he is calm reward him.  You can teach him to behave around other dogs gradually. When he sees another dog and behaves, reward him -treats and praise. So you are rewarding the good behaviour and ignoring the bad, meaning the bad behavior becomes boring and pointless to him.

I'd try to find a different trainer that can work with you in a different way, such as clicker training. One of my dogs got to the stage were he would have a go at other dogs as soon as he saw them, but it only took a few days to get him to the stage where he would see another dog and instead look at ME and wait for praise.

Thankyou very much for your reply . And I see where you are comming from . Like I said when off lead he is totally non aggressive ( in fact he has been set upon by smaller dogs and has run away albeit not to me ) You mention Hip scoring , well the bitch he mated with was from the breeder I got him from who has over 30 years experience  and has been very supportive . His mother has a beautiful temperament and the sire has absolutely top credentials .

I'm sure they were supportive, but regardless, dogs for breeding - GSDs definitely should always be hip scored before they breed.  Was the bitch hip scored?  Even the best breeders can be bad eggs; I was talking just the other day to a woman who runs an agility club, she got a purebred norfolk (which turned out to be a norfolk/westie mix) from one of the top breeders - mentioned in all the right books, so on and so forth - and apparently the breeder's house was filthy and about 40 dogs and pups as well.  Experience doesn't necessarily make a good breeder - just look at all the "experienced" staffy breeders out there mass-producing pups.

>You mention Hip scoring , well the bitch he mated with was from the breeder I got him from who has over 30 years experience  and has been very supportive . His mother has a beautiful temperament and the sire has absolutely top credentials .

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sorry but this breeder might have 100 years of experience but anyone who breeds from un hip scored un Haemophillia tested males is a bad breeder

His mother might be perfect, his father might be perfect every bitch he mates might be perfect but he has major temperament problems & should not be bred from.

No GSD should be bred from unhealth tested & certainly never ever under 1 year of age

By using him at stud you wil have made him very aware of bitches & made his attitude towards other males worse

I've had three active stud dogs all living in total harmony & all three had perfect temperaments & all were health tested(one had perfect hips & was a hip improver)-However none were used before they they were health tested & all had better than average hip scores

No wonder you are having problems :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Clicker Training Tell me more

Here's some clicker training links. :)

http://www.dogplay.com/Behavior/clicker.html
http://clickertraining.com/
http://www.teamworktraining.co.uk/links.asp (This is my trainer's page, this particular page has plenty of interesting links on it)

By using him at stud you wil have made him very aware of bitches & made his attitude towards other males worse


This is a very good point. And a very true point, not only is he at the worst time for his testosterone levels he will most certainly want to challenge other males now as he has been given the chance way to early to be a stud.

I totally agree with the others with regards to what on earth was the breeder thinking.  No one knows until the tests are done whether a dog or bitch will make good breeding stock, or what temperament they will have once grown, but what is done is done, now you need to work harder than ever with your teenager. Please don't put him to stud again until everything is properly tested and his temperament properly assessed.

Young, male GSD's  are hard work at this age, you just have the added problem on top of that now, your breeder has done you absolutely no favours, has she forgotten herself how difficult GSD's are at this age?????

My brother's GSD's were whistle trained along with all my families other dogs, so clicker or whistle is the best idea to help with training him. It truly is the worst stage right now, be consistant, be strict above all else, lead him when other dogs approach, or get a long line, the next year is going to test you to the full he is fully testosterone charged right now and you will need your wits about you.

Take everyones advice here and continue with all your training, he will not become a well behaved dog over night, he may even become worse before better, so don't beat yourself up that you are doing everything wrong, keep at it, his age is a major problem right now, but without constant, consistant training he can go off the rails, you will have to pull him in again and stay strong and above all else be very, very, vigilant.

It will turn around, my brothers two entire GSD's are the most beautiful, calm, well behaved dogs you could ever meet now. But once upon a time they were nightmares too. Keep at it. :-)

>He has actually already sired successfully when 10 months

you used a GSD under a year at stud ? Please tell me this isn't true :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: temperament problems unhealth tested & a stud dog

>He has actually already sired successfully when 10 months

If this means he was used at stud at only 10 months of age, this is very worrying. He can't have been hip-scored (because that can't be done before 12 months), which is absolutely vital for GSDs with their reputation for poor hips. What about hs haemopilhilia test?

But of course sound temperament is absolutely paramount. If a dog or bitch has even slightly unreliable temperament they should not be used for breeding. At all.

I quite agree with Moonmaiden.  GSDs have enough heath problems without using sires that have not been hip scored, elbow scored, screened for haemophilia and clear eyes!

A thoroughly irresponsible attitude to take not to mention that as GSDs mature slowly he is not yet "finished" so his temperament at 10 months is not necessarily the end article.

What a shame that dogs are STILL being used like this by those who do not have the breed's interests at heart!

Breeding from a dog that must wear a muzzle when in company of other dogs in a training class is hardly a great advertisement for the correct GSD temperament either! :rolleyes:

You may want to try a different type of training club to a GSD club...see www.apdt.co.uk for a trainer in your area, they may also use clicker :)

I agree with the comments regarding hip problems etc...I think your breeder has been very unfair to you, your dog and the breed in general.

Good luck
Lindsay
x

Can I reiterate that when OFF LEAD he is perfectly socialable does not bear teeth ,growl ,  bark , any other aggressive signs and has done when OFF LEAD . Also the reaction to other dogs is not that massive but I would like to suppress it . How can he tell from across a busy road and from 200 yards if a dog is bitch or dog

Because of his sense of smell & of course having been used at stud this is heightened

A dog pretty much makes sense of the world with his nose and their sense of smell is exceedingly highly developed! As others have said, allowing your dog to be mated while still a puppy himself means he will have no difficulty smelling a bitch from 200 yards away now.

To return to the difference in his behaviour on and off lead, could it be that he feels threatened by the restrictions that a lead put him under? If he feels uncertain around other dogs, being on lead gives him no chance to run and perhaps he's getting the first strike in regardless of whether it's necessary.

Roz that makes a lot of sense to me thank you

Roz that makes a lot of sense to me with regard to the difference in demeanour between on and off lead thank you

In reply to Goldmali I have only just started on Bronze and at the dog club there are only a limited number of assessments at a time , so have to wait my turn . I trained for over a year now and from what I have seen of the silver standard my dog is nearly there and is most consistent in all the commands required .

Just a thought on some more practical help - I would suggest learning about clicker training, and also perhaps using this to teach some commands such as "watch me" ... if trained well, over time, a dog will respond to this command rather than barking and lunging :)

However, it does have to be built up slowly over months to get to this level of training :)

Also using a toy may help, if the dog is  very keen on a particular one.

Just a few additional thoughts...

Lindsay
x

Thank you Lindsay , I have heard of clicker training before and will try this , where do you get these clickers from?

These days a lot of petshops sell clickers, Pets At Home for instance does.

It may also be helpful to consider a copy of Changing People, Changing Dogs by Dee Ganley. Some very useful info in there for coping, understanding managing, training :)

For clicker training, try Clicker Training for Dogs, by Karen Pryor - lots of good photos!

Lindsay
x

Hi,
well you've got your homework cut out for you havent you!! ;)
It'll be well worth it, do put the leg work in..
Here's a great site for immediate advice http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm
I personally dont use the clicker device (a combination of laziness forgetfulness and no co ordination!! :rolleyes:) BUT find the clicker solutions articles extremely good, I use reward based training.
Good Luck :D