I agree with JG my girls have always walked in our local country park off lead and they meet and greet all others calmly and very often just sniff a quick hello then carry on. I have seen very few nasty dogs up there and mostly we all know one another.
I think if you keep them on lead or worse still make a thing of putting a dog on a lead when meeting others  then you may be instilling some sort of threat into the situation. We should be able to read our dogs and hopefully be able to read others too and if a problem looks likely change direction and call your dogs on.
My girls are so used to seeing others that they actually have very little interest in them. They have been walked this way from pups.
Only once did we meet a nasty Boxer who pulled her lead out of her owners hand and rushed up to attack Pepsi. Luckily Pepsi is such a wuss that she just lay down and offered no resistance and the agressive Boxer backed off. with a few choice words from me to let the owner know that if she was not strong enough to hold her dog she should only walk it in public with a muzzle on

I know a woman who believes in allowing her dog total freedom in open spaces - she just doesn't see the point of owning a dog if you can't let it run free.
Sounds great in theory but this dog has developed into an absolute nightmare . He's had numerous nasty fights with other dogs and has even grabbed at humans on more than one occasion.  But his owner is totally unconcerned by his behaviour and says she will never deprive him of his freedom.  What she doesn't seem to realise is that her laid-back attitude might one day end up depriving him of his life :rolleyes:

My two dogs are never off the lead when out - although this woman lives nowhere near us I live in fear of meeting someone just like her

Obviously there will always be this possible outcome but is it fair on your dogs to restrict them so much, they need some time for free running. We could spend our lives being worried about danger and loose out on so much, I love to see my girls chasing hoplessly after squirels and socializing with outher doggie friends, Do you always walk in the same place? don't you find the same people go at the same times surely the risk of a mad woman with uncontrold dog is slight? Relax a little and don't spend your life waiting for awfull things to happen, enjoy your dogs.

Don't fret, Merlot, my dogs are only little and have plenty of free running in the garden as well as two lead walks every single day :). If they're unhappy, they're certainly hiding it very well :-D
Obviously we're all different and have different ways of giving our dogs the best quality of life we can. It's just that my way of doing this is fundamentally linked to my desire and efforts to keep them safe.:)

I would never take my girls to a place dogs are allowed loose unless they were going to be let off too, as I would find that almost like teasing them. 

If I want to lead walk (girls in season or weather so bad that I would get too dirty), I walk the pavements and roadways. Wouldn't see the point in oing to the Park with a dog on lead, other than a flexi or long line where they can at least act fairly naturally and have more freedom of movement than a walking lead alows.

I have a problem in that i have two dogs that socialise wonderfully off lead and one rescue spaniel that was undersocialised and can ppear very aggressive sometimes. I have been advised by an animal behaviourist that it is mostly a desire to play, but he is unable to ask nicely and just barges into them wanting to chase them, although he can appear quite nervy too, so i always err on the side of caution. I walk in the forest so that they can all go off lead and usually allow the girls to approach any off lead dogs that appear ok, although they are both so well mannered there is usually no problem. However i do worry that i am being too careful with Murphy. He interacts beautifully with dogs at training classes, even if he hasn't met them before, and socialises fine with dogs he knows. Its only when we encountered dogs out on a walk that he appears aggressive. The behaviourist advised me to let him off the lead to allow him to socialise freely, and on the whole i find he is better, but i still find myself putting him on the lad and tensing up when another dog approaches which really doesn't help him at all. Trouble is i'm so worried about him causing damage, particuarly in a world where a dog so much as has to frighten somebody or look at a dog the wrong way and we could be taken to court, and i also find it embarrassing. However i am aware that its a catch 22 situation and he wont get better manners without socialising, but so few owners can see the difference between communication and real aggression, that i just can't stand the dirty looks i get if he plays up.

Sounds similar to me and mine

Same here Annie - our local park is sometimes crammed with dogs of all shapes, sizes and conditions but there is rarely a harsh word from man or beast.
I think JG had it about right.  The more the dogs see other dogs the better they are around them.

(BTW what a delight to have a debate going again. I'd almost given up hope...)

Just this weekend I had a very rare occurance of having 8 dogs to walk, mine, my mum's and my brothers, from large to small.  All are impecably behaved and very well trained and where I live we all socialise our dogs off lead there are no problems, dogs need to socialised and to play together. The honest truth is the only people who do have a problem are those with none social dogs, who are a minority or youngsters who are not well trained.

The young adolescents and pups we all forgive for their bouncing and deaf ears :-D because most of our dogs do start off this way too, and that should never be forgotten when we have our well behaved dogs infront of us now. I usually laugh and say "Here comes a learner :-) " it is easy to spot the eager, overwhelmed pup and owner.

The aggressive dogs are on lead giving a signal to the rest of us to steer clear and if a dog is not good at recall then it needs to be leaded to stay away from a leaded dog either aggressive, fearful or an in season bitch and that is a point that should always be drilled into other dog walkers.

Otherwise the majority of happy go lucky dogs should of course be allowed to run free and mingle as much as possible.

>The young adolescents and pups we all forgive for their bouncing and deaf ears  because most of our dogs do start off this way too, and that should never be forgotten when we have our well behaved dogs infront of us now. I usually laugh and say "Here comes a learner  " it is easy to spot the eager, overwhelmed pup and owner

You're talking about me and mine aren't you :D

I agree we should let our dogs play with others dogs but when you live where people think just because you have a BIG dog that the're nasty, then your up against it from the word go.
I constantly get people pulling their dogs away saying 'he's too big and will hurt you' to their dogs, even tho' I do explain that he's very friendly and wont hurt a fly, they look at me gone out,or you get 'he can play, my dogs friendly' then their dog launches a full blown attack.

I will never win so i just walk at a quiet time of day or keep him on the lead.

What else can I do????

I think i am pretty lucky in that not 5 mins from my front door, and almost in the middle of town is an old  house and the grounds are now a country park. Acres of woodland, hills and springs with deep pools and rivers between. Lots of different walks and I am pleased to say lots of friendly dogs and owners. I can tell you by the time of day who is likely to be out walking. The park ranger is very dog friendly and it really is a haven for me and the girls.The only things the girls chase up to is the squirrels and they are too quick for them to catch.
I do think though that the more dogs are allowed to socialize the better they accept other dogs approaching, and yes I had a GSD once Kia who was the dog from hell if approached but never looked for trouble. I just used to be very vigilant and adjust my walk if i saw an off lead dog coming. As luck would have it he was far more interested in keeping by my side and even used to return to me if he saw a dog on the horizon. He made 14 years and never actually attacked another dog but swore at a few who got too close! I think most other dogs realized by his body language not to tangle with him. It was not his fault he was so naughty, as a 4 month pup he was diagnosed with extreme hip dispasia and not allowed any exercise for 4 months, the worst time of his life to be isolated, but the hips fused and although he walked with a funny bunny hop behind he lived to a ripe old cantankarous age God bless him.

>The young adolescents and pups we all forgive for their bouncing and deaf ears  because most of our dogs do start off this way too, and that should never be forgotten when we have our well behaved dogs infront of us now. I usually laugh and say "Here comes a learner  " it is easy to spot the eager, overwhelmed pup and owner

You're talking about me and mine aren't you

No it's me and mine Carrington is talking about :D

Some advice please : If, as I currently do, I always put my bouncy, large teenager back on his lead when I see another dog approaching will he gradually learn how to approach all dogs -of varying temperaments- in  a calm manner?  If he is well socialised does the calmness come with maturity ( he's a GR so have a few years to go yet) or is it something he learns by experience?  Do all dogs understand instinctively the signals that other dogs are giving off or again is this something they learn by experience? I wouldn't let him off lead anyway near small dogs, without invitation, as in his exuberence, they would probably be inadvertantly mown down like skittles. 

Your thoughts please :)

>Do all dogs understand instinctively the signals that other dogs are giving off or again is this something they learn by experience?

Experience. As people have said, pups which are raised by humans rather than their natural mother don't instinctively know how to behave - it all needs to be taught. 99% of adult dogs are tolerant of young puppies running up to them, and the worst that usually happens is that an obstreperous youngster gets roared at and instinctively rolls over. It gets startled and sometimes damp with spittle, but is otherwise physically unharmed. This is not aggression on the part of the adult dog - quite the opposite! This is the very best way for pups to learn canine manners, which are different to human ones! :D :D Then, by the time they reach teenagerhood they already have the groundings and the body language only needs fine-tuning. Yes, there will be times both sides misinterpret the other's intentions, but this is less likely to happen the more dogs they've met. Good luck - it all takes time! :)

Another thing I've found is that if you put your dog back on lead but the other owner doesn't, there are quite a few dogs who will be aggressive with your dog simply because he is on lead, so by putting him back on lead you have put him at a disadvantage.

Harley my GR is 19 months old now and the more he gets to play with other dogs the less excited he is and, yes, if you can believe it, less likely to even be interested in visiting dogs. You have an adolescent golden so you KNOW what I'm talking about with that one. ;-) look mom, there's a spec in the distance, I think it might be a dog!!! Byeeeeee

look mom, there's a spec in the distance, I think it might be a dog!!! Byeeeeee

Lori you have made me feel so much better. People can be very judgemental at times and often assume that owners are not being responsible whereas they might just be having a bad day I think I would die of embarassment if someone accused me of not caring about other owners and their dogs if mine went rushing up to see them - I do care but just lack the experience with teenagers who, ocassionally, merit an ASBO.

In the woods one day I met a chap who had a small crossbreed running around and he asked me if I would put my dog on a lead as his wasn't too keen on other dogs (this was in Harley's pre-teen days so he was sitting and waiting for me like a star) and so I apologised and put the lead on. As we walked past him my daughter asked me why I hadn't asked him to do the same as it was his dog who had the problem not ours. I just didn't want anything to happen to our dog so did as was asked.

I think our dog would actually benefit from meeting a couple of dogs who would tell him off in an authoritative manner as he only really interacts with dogs that want to play so hasn't really had the chance to learn that not all dogs want to play with him.

Being a responsible owner can be a bit of a minefield at times as, understandably, people have their own views on what  responsibility entails and this can vary greatly. :)

I live next to a rural beach and walk my two dogs daily. We have many visitors to the area and I find these are the ones that cause problems ( and also do not pick up their dogs poop ) Majority of the dogs are small breeds, so when my two heffalumps are near new visitors, I always call out 'don't worry they are friendly'. I have been called many names for letting my two huge (so must be aggressive) brutes off lead even though they come back when called. One woman swore at me because her dog 'did not like her bottom being smelt' I do feel that there are some dog owners who treat them as babies and do not let them behave as dogs. The worst thing my two would do, would be to flick slob on them and I do carry tissues for such emergencies :D 

I don't like dogs approaching my dog and have had numerous spats with people in the park/beach/woods etc as they have had out of control dogs.  My dog hates other dogs running up to her and after numerous episodes in her youth where she was scared/chased/bitten she is now immediately on the defensive.  If dogs 'sniff her bottom' she sits down and if they persist she snaps and if they continue after that God help them!  I agree with Marianne througout this thread and my most hated phrase is 's/he is only playing'.  It takes 2 dogs to play and if one doesn't want to play then it is bullying.

hmmm-i know that phrase. My gran's neighbour has a rottie that likes to 'play'. I always always used to check she wasn'tt out before taking mine in grans garden, ut one day she was let out and i didn't know. She jumped the fence and flew at Teka trying to grab her neck and face, Teka trying to cower behind my legs. I tried to bodyblock her, but it wasn't working. Her owner jumped then fence and got her, flung her in their garden, then came back saying "she was only trying to play" :rolleyes: Yeah right.....

maybe I should teach my dogs to shake hands :D  Where did I put that book? :D

>people think just because you have a BIG dog that the're nasty, then your up against it from the word go.
>I constantly get people pulling their dogs away saying 'he's too big and will hurt you' to their dogs, even tho' I do explain that he's very friendly and wont hurt a fly, they look at me gone out,or you get 'he can play, my dogs friendly' then their dog launches a full blown attack.

I get this ALL the time with my Dobe! People with small dogs generally scoop them up and make a run for it , or they say to their dog "keep away from him - he'll eat you for breakfast!!" Like he wouldn't prefer something with more meat on it :D I usually call out that he's a big wuss, and those small dogs that are allowed to stay on the ground seem more than capable of looking after themselves - a few frenzied air snaps (after what looks like polite mutual sniffing ) send my big brave boy running back to mummy :D

i'm the opposite-i love big dogs! One of the first dogs we met round this way was a rottie who came bounding over like an elephant. I must admit, i did think "oh.....", but he's now Teka's boyfriend-they absolutely love eachother. He's the only dog, apart from Bu, who she lets jump on top of her, hump her and generally roughs with her, and she loves every minute of it! Give me a big dog over a little ratty dog anyday-the bigger the better, and i couldn't care less if they're wet or muddy :)  I've only seen two dobes round my way-one wears a bandana and is such a sweetie.

i must admit, i'm a bit cautious when out with my two. Not so much with Teka and other dogs, because she's great with them-she'll go up and have a sniff, and if she's met with a grumble or negative body language, will back off, if its up for a play, will quite happily belt round til their hearts are content. The bother i have with Bu as he's quite protective of Teka and is unpredictable around strange dogs. If i see an unfamiliar dog, i'll either go in a different direction, distract them acting like a twit or play with whatever toy i take out or stick (or tree!) they find or put them both on their lead til we pass. If theres no avoilding them, Teka'll get really excited and bark, and Bu wants to go for a nosey. If the owners are up for it, and Bu's behaving ( i do make the owners aware he may have a grumble) himself when approaches on the lead, i'll let them off, but to be honest it rarely happens (as in lets them off). There are so many people round here that have dogs who wrap them in cotton wool-especially those with yorkies and the like. Sometimes i can understand it, especially if they've had a negative experience (Bu has been attacked twice by unfriendly dogs belting upto him, which probably explains his unpredictability). As has been said so many times before, courtesy is the key i think. I don't want strange dogs running up to mine to be quite honest, so i don't allow mine to run up to others, if i can help it. Its just not worth the risk. Its a shame though, because i too remember when you could wander your dogs and it would be a free for all with dogs running round everywhere, and if a dog has a scrap, well then it had a scrap.

Going back to the earlier posts on this thread.  I can look back on my youth (I need a clairvoyant at my time of life) and remember the neighbourhood dogs running free and playing in the streets.  When they weren't having little tussles they were humping each other and bouncing of lampposts - all true sorry about the graphic description - and lost of cute little cross breeds around for very little money.  Yes we all walked our dogs together and if one of them didn't come back, hey he'd be back later after chasing the girlies (usually 10 or more hours later with torn ears etc.)  That was then and this is now.  I was 11 then and the world was a much safer place, I think, when my cross breed GSD came back pregnant it was a time for rejoicing because we would have puppies to give to the man at the shop or auntie Flo - good times.  One of the major factors here was that I and my friends walked our dogs all the way out to where they would have their exercise so they knew their way back if we got separated.  We did not put them in a car and take them to a nice spot to walk where they would not know the way back.

Like everything else times have changed and we seem to have a lot more dogs about, with pedigrees as long as your arm, that we don't want impregnated, scared or scarred and laws that insist we take proper care not to let our dogs roam free in public (although you would find it hard to enforce them).  Of course dogs should be allowed to socialise and run free, if you are sure you can get them back, but there is a time and a place for all of this.  Good walks with open space for timid dogs to get away from rowdy ones, and again you would hope you could get your timid one back. 

I am one of these people that objects strongly to being told off because my little dogs have snapped at someones big dog running up to them when they are on lead (hasten to add - where I feel it is essential for their safety).  You should see the reaction when I have my big dogs in the same situation and on lead, the very same people put their dogs on lead and walk well away from me. 

Perhaps the answer is for me to walk all of mine a the same time off lead and see how the other walkers like their dogs being bounced on and loved to death by more than a dozen big hairy feet.  Then it will be my turn to say 'they're only playing'

My main reason for taking the dogs out is so that they and I can socialise as you describe.  I too am rather saddened when I meet the kind of dog walker who seems to resent interaction.  Thankfully most around here are like me.

If they have a nervous or slightly off dog they will warn you, and with mine I just tell them that mine are good communicators and easy going so will leave well alone or be gentle with nervous ones, as they have lots of practise.  When young and inexperienced  I curb their enthusiam.

I walked my friend's now 14 1/2 year  Golden retriever who was dog into;;intollerant/aggressive, and disliked men from the time she was 3 yeas old until 6 years ago wen she tore her cruciate playing too enthusiastically with a young Springer.

It was taking her out and socialising her properly (my friend had her at over  year old when her owners didn't want her as she brought mud into the house, so was locked out in the garden).

I wonder if its somewhat symptomatic of the society we live in today... Its so rare that one actually speaks to a stranger these days. I know that when I am walking I am very wary of men - which doesn't help with Phoebe who is equally as mistrusting. I don't tend to encourage her to be friendly as we walk along the canal and I actually want her to look unapproachable as its quite a restricted place to pass someone. If a lone male is approaching she glues herself to my leg and we both glare at him. Self preservation I guess....

Add a dog to that poor innocent male and he'll almost get burned at the stake :D

Ah now a man with a dog I will greet happily when I have my dogs with me, it is dogless lone males that I think twice about.

How often do you get the chance to put a theory into practice.  Just got back from the early morning walks - feeling very self righteous having walked to the walk (no car) and around the walk and back again twice.  All that aside.

No mishaps, met lots of nice dogs until the return journey along the road, okay its is a b road but cars do use it, when I came over the brow of the hill with my three Beardies, on lead, and was spied some 50 or more yards off by two medium sized and one small dog off lead.  They came dashing towards us with no attempt by the owner to get them back and mine moved away in three different directions making me stand still in the middle.  The two older dogs came to their senses almost immediately and started to move off in a straight line again, the youngster was clearly frightened and continued to dash about while we tried to move forward and make nothing of it.  It was a good few minutes before the owner caught up and apologised but added 'there's no harm in them they are not vicious'. 

Now I could see they were just happy dogs but my youngster was still very afraid and by now my boy was up on his toes, neck arched, tail over back and ready to defend his girls.  I bent down and made as if I was going to let him off and she went ape.  Don't let him go he will kill mine.  'No harm he's not vicious'.  I wouldn't have let him go because we were on a road even though his recall is excellent.

We really are in a no win situation and I for one will continue to protect when necessary and allow free running were appropriate.

Tin Hat cast aside ready for the blows!!!!!!!

>allow free running were appropriate.

That's the crux of the matter - loose on a road isn't appropriate. In the fields, where your dogs were offlead and not therefore at a disadvantage and put on the defensive, there's unlikely to have been a problem, especially when you say that you could see they were just happy dogs, not aggressive. :)

exactly!

A bit of a sore point with me :(

Tara used to be very good with other dogs until the problems with her paw. Then, because she had to be on a lead for many months and afterwards because her paw continued to be sore because it was healing, she became very wary of dogs approaching her :( I became very aware of this and she probably has sensed this :( Now she no longer plays with other dogs off lead. She is very happy playing with her ball and doesn't seem to need to play with other dogs. If other dogs approach her when she is on lead and give her more than a passing sniff she will go for them - more noise than anything :( Dogs that she knows she will ignore, as long as I am holding her ball - she is too interested in it. Because she used to chase joggers, I have always taken the ball out - but it has made her uninterested in playing with other dogs :( She can be left out of sight in a down stay in a hall full of other dogs without problem :)

I am not sure what I should have done when I realised that we had this problem with her - it is difficult to ask other people if they mind your dog going for their dog :D :(

Daisy