Hi - I'm at work but I've just had a call from my childminder who is at home with my son and daughter (my home).  She said that when they got in from school - dog was in kitchen behind pet gate - in his crate - as usual - crate unlocked BUT he really barked and snarled at her agressively so my son went in and shut the crate because she was frightened.  When she then went into the kitchen he went berserk in the crate. My daughter has since taken him for a quick walk round the block so we could move his bed into my bedroom (bungalow so all downstairs) and put him in there so the childminder can move around without being scared. 

Any ideas on what might be wrong or what I should look out for when I get home....

all thoughts welcome

thank you

Maxine

PS we have had him for five months now and although he has had issues with strangers he has not had a problem with her before.

Is your childminder dog friendly? Just a thought she hasn't done anything to upset him has she?

No this was as she came in the door he started - she is a dog lover herself and has a dog and three cats of her own.  I really dont understand it - I've just said shut him away in the bedroom and when I get home I will check him over and make sure he doesnt have anything 'hurting'...

just a thought, she hasn't changed her appearance at all?  If he's been funny with strangers before, perhaps he doesn't recognise her.  Although I'm sure she'd smell the same??

Wierd.... keep us posted!

I've just phoned to check all are well - the dog is still in the bedroom - childminder absolutely wont let him out.  I'm going to sneak away from work now an hour early - so I will get home in about an hours time and see what is going on........

Maxine

I think if you are really worried about this behaviour you should be carefull with the children to, if you are not there then somone needs to take responsibility and they are presumably not old enough if they need childminders. Don't let this slide into another "Dog related incident"

Yes I was going to say this -was she wearing something different? My dogs ALWAYS go nuts wen my kids walk in wearing hats or anything else different -the smell doesn't seem to matter at all. They even barked at me when I came out of the bathroom having coloured my hair.

Or a different perfume?

My dog's like this too! I walked out onto the patio one day wearing a bright red top and he came hurtling down the garden going totally nuts! Didn't realise it was me at all! One of our other dogs used to go nuts if you came down the stairs wearing a hat or towel on your head

So - I've got home - dog is fine with me and doesnt seem to be in pain at all.  Have put the dog back in the kitchen with the pet gate - when childminder walks past gate or approaches gate if the dog can see me ok if he cant see me barking quite aggressively.  Tried putting dog in crate with door shut and childminder in kitchen with me - quiet -childminder on her own - barking aggressively.  I dont know what to think - the vet possibly?

He obviously finds her a threat for some unexplained reason.
Surely by now he has recognized her. How long have you had him? Did you know much about his history? How old is he? and what breed? Try the breed rescue for advice they may have had simmilar expieriences and have some ideas.

I have had him for five months - he has never been an issue with the childminder - he has seen her almost every day for that five months.  He has never accepted strangers and I do have to shut him away when visitors come - and I dont let children approach him to stroke him unless I am holding his collar because he doesnt always like it so I know I have to be careful.

I feel like we have reached the point where if we cant trust him then he shouldn't be living with us due to having kids and childminders.

I just dont know what the next step is really. I'm absolutely heartbroken and dont know what to do next for the best but when my own 9 year old son tells me he was scared it cant be right to keep him can it....

thanks for your thoughts and concern

Maxine 

He has never accepted strangers and I do have to shut him away when visitors come - and I dont let children approach him to stroke him unless I am holding his collar because he doesnt always like it so I know I have to be careful.

I'm afraid that I wouldn't keep a dog like that in a home with children anyway.  It only needs someone to make a mistake or leave a door open. :(

Val I agree - but this wasnt a trait that we knew about before he came to us and I just wanted to have tried and not give up on him - I wanted to see if we could with time and training help him come out of it but it doesnt look like we will be able to.

Not a criticism - more like support. :)

It is never an easy decision to make to let a dog go but if you feel you have lost trust in him then he will know it and the trouble will not go away. You need to be fully in control of a dog like him and if you feel he may be a threat to your (and other) children then the time may be right to say goodbye.
Let the vet check that there is no obvious reason for his behaviour but it sounds like he has some serious behaviour issues.
Think carefully about handing those problems on to someone else and if you let him go to rescue then make sure they know all about him, don't pass it on to another unsuspecting owner.
He may be able to settle with another owner but I would say it will have to be someone who is very expierienced in dog handling.

I have had him for five months - he has never been an issue with the childminder - he has seen her almost every day for that five months.  He has never accepted strangers and I do have to shut him away when visitors come -

Would you say over this time period that he's got any worse with strangers generally? as if so, this could be generalising to any and all people who are not immediate family. Only a thought, in which case being proactive and using reward based training and a behavioural programme should help a lot :)

If it is literally a sudden behaviour, then usually, with an adult dog, if it can't be put down to anything else, it can be a medical problem. The problem may not be too obvious even to the vet, it may be something like hypothyroid which needs tests.

What is the light like in the house? Just wondering if his eyes are not too good. Also, some dogs can be very odd about certain human appearances - even down to grey hair, or a certain type of clothes. I'd be wanting to check all of this out thoroughly. Is he a rescue? in which case she may remind him strongly of someone in the past he didn't like or was treated badly by...

Hope things improve.

Lindsay
x

Maybe something's upset him - window cleaner, people banging on the door during the day? Was the childminder carrying anything unusual, wearing a different perfume, have a hat on? Anything that dogs see as being different/ strange can upset them - I remember the first time my gsp saw me in a hat (he was about 5 months old) he barked, backed off & wouldn't come near me!!  Had to take it off so he realised it was me, then he was fine - and he's used to hats now BTW ;)

Just read your later posts - can't remember if you've said whether you've had a dog behaviourist in before - might be worth a thought if you want to explore all avenues. Obviously though since you have children, and if you can't explain his behaviour/ can't trust him... you will have to think about whether to keep him. I seem to remember you got him from Rescue - was it the breed rescue? Might be worth having a word with them and seeing what they think. Good luck.

He has been absolutely fine since we've been home - he is generally a well behaved quiet chilled out sort of dog that just loves his own space and his own home.  I spoke to the breed rescue - Hungarian Puli - who seemed to think maybe he was just having a bad day.  But now he is his normal self - I think as the time of night it is I need to sleep on this and take some more advice in the morning. There is a lady who is a trainer and puli owner who also helps out rescue organisations that has met my dog so I will try and speak to her

Maxine

try not to make any hasty decisions, tomorrow you will have an action plan and everything will seem better, sorry youre having such a hard time.

who knows if this childminder has done something to him. dogs are good judges of character & dont lie

Hi, 

Thanks for all the replies - and Val I didnt take your thoughts as criticism at all - thanks for taking the time to respond.  If I think with my head I feel he would be better with a quiet adult only home - but if I think with my heart I dont want him to go, the childminder doesnt want him to go, the kids dont want him to go - we want to find a solution.

Another day - the thinking will continue...

Maxine
 

It is a strange one if he has seen this childminder for the past 5 months. I know Puli's aren't great with strangers, but as far as I know they are not generally an aggressive dog! This woman should be like family, if he sees her regularly especially with your child.

I completely agree with Val if this problem should continue the risk is too high, but age can make a difference there could possibly be some hormonal activity which is making him go through a fear factor. (How old is he???)

Is he all noise as some dogs can be but would never, ever bite, do you think he would actually bite?? You obviously seem worried if holding his collar sometimes. Has the childminder been able to stroke him since your return and make a fuss of him.

Michelled has picked up on something too, could perhaps your childminder have raised her voice in telling off your child or the dog, this may also account on his change of attitude towards her. Something is bugging him somewhere, I too hope it is a one off, I would quiz your child afterwards and make sure nothing has happened to make your Puli show distrust and react this way.

He sounds as though he needs a lot of controlled socialising, I would too seek out a behaviourist if you wish to keep him, but no dog would ever come before my child or visitors safety.

poor you...  I can understand you wanting to try everything before you let him go.  Was he going for your childminder? Or was he just barking?  I would be careful from now on, like you all say, you don't want an incident to happen.  Talk to a behaviourist because this is very erratic and something must have triggered it.  You might be able to turn it around.  Would oyur childminder be happy to perhaps come to some training sessions to get him used to her again? 

It only takes a raised voice to set them off.  He may feel protective of the children and if she has scolded them, he might not like it.

Perservere, but only so far. If there is no change, then you will have to think about letting him go. 

I really do hope you get this sorted out

It was very odd.

When I got home and had heard him barking at her I then put him on a lead - walked him out of the house and back in and walked him to her on the lead he was absolutely fine no pulling on the lead, no barking just wagged his tail and went to say hello. She stroked him but was scared that he would suddenly change.  She herself has said that maybe something had happened in the day and he was taking it out on her.  He usually follows her everywhere and nudges her for cuddles and toys.

We have been doing so well with the socialising with strangers - I am only careful with kids as a precaution - he doesnt like being pounced on so when little ones run up screaming to stroke him he gets nervous so I stop them.  He has a good set of doggy friends now and we have had visitors to the house - that as long as they say hello and give him a treat all has been going well.  But if there isnt time for that then the crate gets used.

Our plan so far is:-

1.  See what reaction he gives to the childminder tonight - if she is uncomfortable she will take the children to her house.

2.  If the issue continues take him to a vet to rule out any medical issues.

3.  If nothing medical then I will contact the rescue where I got him from.

A point to add about how usually funny he is - my daughter took him out for a walk this morning and a workman was stood on the pavement eating a bacon sandwich - Louis (my dog) went and sat at his feet - just like he learnt at obedience - and waited for a bit of bacon.......

the mad mad world of dogs......

Maxine

or get a new childminder!

id trust your dogs judgement

Steady on! From what I read, the childminder seems to have been remarkably reasonable about what sounds like a rather scary episode yet suddenly, she's Public Enemy No. 1 despite nobody actually knowing what triggered the dog's behaviour! Let alone (with the exception of Maxine) actually knowing the childminder in question.

It's a horrible dilemma to be put in because no matter how you try and rationalise this behaviour, it leaves a worrying doubt about future incidents. Given that the OP has children and a reasonable expectation that her dog will be safe in their company (and indeed the company of any other visitor to the house) makes this a far from open and shut case. With respect though, I can't see how it is helped by demonising the childminder!!!

I think your plan of action is really sensible Maxine because only you can make the ultimate decision. But even if the worst does come to the worst so far as rehoming is concerned, you can know that you've worked through all the possibilities and alternatives. 

Thanks All - I have a bit of an update.  My son told me that there was something different about the way they came into the house.  We all - always - talk to Louis as we open the door and come in so he knows its us.  Yesterday when they got home they didnt do this - they came in the door without speaking - Louis was sound asleep in his crate and only when they got right to the pet gate (about 6 inches from his crate) did they call him.

I think they woke him from a deep sleep and scared him so he barked - they both told me today that he didnt actually come out of the crate and up to the pet gate to bark he stayed in his crate which had the door open.

From this I think it puts a different light on it - I think they scared him and then later  he was probably barking to be let of the crate because by this time they had shut him in.

The childminder is very happy to see what happens tonight and was in tears last night because she didnt want me to have to rehome him.  She is also going to learn some of the training commands that we use.

So fingers crossed tonight goes well......

and thanks again to everybody who has taken the time to respond -

Maxine

WHOOOPS - have just seen your update!  I really must learn to type faster :rolleyes:

Hi Maxine
Glad to hear that you may have identified the problem - the way you've described what happened would certainly explain why Louis reacted as he did.
(and I bet you're relieved you won't have to ask your childminder those personal questions ! :) )

Hope all goes well tonight.
xx

> From this I think it puts a different light on it

It does doesn't it? I'm pleased there was something you could put your finger on, and hope that you've found what the problem was How is it all going now?

Hi Maxine - certainly a dilemma :(

Only you of course can ultimately decide on the best way forward which realistically fits in with your own domestic circumstances.   FWIW, I'd be inclined to look more intimately at every aspect of the situation in order to best work out the reason for your dog behaving as it did.  There is always a reason for behaviours - although admittedly not always something which can be pin pointed :rolleyes:

Firstly, you may need to ask your Childminder some personal questions.  The ones which readily spring to mind are (a) had she only recently begun her menstrual cycle at the time?  In some dogs this can promote unusual and unacceptable behaviours. (b)Had she been eating something which would affect her personal scent?  (such as garlic, onions, curry etc) (c) Has she recently introduced an oral or topical medication? (something which seeps through the pores and sweat glands)

One or any combination of the above could have impacted on your dog's behaviour.

Additionally, as I too have a herd/guard breed, ask her to think very carefully about anything she may inadvertently have done which could have caused the dog's guarding/protective instinct to kick in.  She may have picked up one of the children in a way which the dog perceived as threatening.  My own breed often vocally react when fathers (for eg) hoist a toddler onto their shoulders!  Whether the dog reacts either in defence of the possible threat to the toddler or in fear of this now strangely "humped" being I have no idea - BUT, it can and does happen and I know of many herd/guard breeds which react similarly.   Your childminder may have verbally or physically reprimanded the children OR the dog and, in view of the repercussions now, be quite naturally reluctant to go over this in detail.

If your investigations lead you to be none the wiser, it is of course best to consult your vet in case there is a medical cause for your dog's behaviour - although the fact that in your presence the same reactions are not present suggests to me that your dog respects *your ability* to deal with his perceived threat......

I am glad that you have contact with breed rescue as more often than not breed specific advice is far more valuable than that which covers more general canine behaviour - certainly with a herding and/or guarding breed.

I wish you well - I know you have worked hard with this boy and sincerely hope that whatever the best solution turns out to be, it is one which you and your family know they need feel no guilt for.

best wishes, Teri  :)

Thanks Teri for your response - I'm still waiting to see what happens tonight. 

Just a thought, have your kids or childminder been able to tell you about the dogs body language? When he was barking was he making himself look big or was it a case of tail and ears down and body close to the floor? The reason I ask is that if he stayed in his crate, it does sound like he may have been started and stayed somewhere he feels safe. Generally speaking if a dog was just generally acting agressively, I would have expected them to come out of the crate and be 'giving it large' but if he was startled or fearful as you have suggested a bit of knowledge about his body language may help to confirm this, if for example, he was making himself small etc as I believe this is a characteristic of fear aggression.

I think your plan is very sensible and I hope it all works out for you.
Good Luck!!!

A quick update - we did have issues again last evening - but I spent 2hours on the phone with a behaviourist last night who gave me lots of advice and coping strategies.  Luckily my childminder is happy to try everything although she is very scared of the dog at the moment.  Still it is 4pm and I havent had a distressed call yet - so fingers crossed. 

Oh and one of the many thoughts was a really obvious one - Leave a light on so he can see who it is coming through the door.  I didnt realise how dark it gets in my house at that time of day .....

I really hope that no call is a good sign and doesnt mean she has run away or is pinned against a wall......

Maxine

Hello Again,

Progress has been made - the behaviourists ideas were put into action and worked very well.  Tomorrow when I get home we are going to move on to me taking Louis into the same room as the childminder and see how we go.

Through chatting to a friend today we have though realised the big episode that may have caused him to be frightened - prior to Tuesday when this happened - the last time my childminder collected my son from school was Wednesday last week.  My son had a massive tantrum that night because he had a school disco and he couldnt find his jewellery that he wanted to wear (the most image conscious 9 year old you will ever meet I think).  So although she didnt do anything that night to my son or the dog - she never ever raises her voice - the sheer fact that my son was screaming his head off - he phoned me at work especially to let me enjoy it too - that could have frightened the dog - added to being woken up by them on Monday night in the dark I'm sure made him feel nervous.

All in all the dog was much happier tonight, the childminder was much less scared and we all feel we will get over this now.....just slowly but surely move things on.

Thanks everyone - it just goes to show if you allow your mind to think properly there is always a reason it just isnt always immediately obvious.....

I'm so pleased I cant describe it -

Maxine

Great news, fingers crossed things continue to improve :)

Out of interest, what did the behaviourist suggest?

Lindsay
x

Hi

the behaviourist was able to pick out a few things that would have upset him - all coming in the last 10 days to give some idea as to why.

The recommendations include.

1.  Changing where his crate is in the kitchen so that it is in a less confrontational place when the childminder comes into the kitchen.  Where it is placed now she can get into the kitchen to make drinks and cook their dinner without having to pass his crate.  So they can see each other but not feel threatened.

2.  Leave lights on - he is nervous of the dark.

3.  A rope with old keys on it and a box of magic chicken!  When she went into the kitchen he started barking - she threw the keys on the floor - told him QUIET and when he was gave him a slice of sausage.  The idea to repeat this as necessary.

This worked yesterday - he barked once.  My husband came home early yesterday so the childminder only stayed for half an hour but she felt much better.  When my son tried to get my dog to play in the garden he didnt want to he wanted to sit in the crate and wait for more sausage from the childminder - he just laid and wagged his tail and waited patiently.

What we have to try now is to get my childminders confidence back to allow my dog to walk around freely as he always has done. 

The recommendation is that when I get in tonight I use a long light rope and let him come into the lounge with me while the childminder is there and if he goes to do anything that makes her uncomfortable I use the rope to stop him and then call him back to me. I dont know how that will work because my childminder is quite nervous but she does desparately want to help me sort this out.  She has also agreed to do some of the basic obedience training in the garden with me and the dog, just to get Louis used to hearing her tell him sit, down, stay and getting treats.

What do you think?

Maxine  

Hi :)

Been following this thread and glad to hear you are making progress, although tbh I'm a bit surprised that a behaviourist has recommended the key thing - if he is barking to let people know he is afraid/nervous then you could end up with a dog that suppresses that warning sign and goes straight for the bite instead. I would just ignore the barking completely, then treat once he's quiet. That's just my opinion though :D Will be interested to hear what other people think. The other recommendations sound good. Hope it goes ok tonight :)

I'm so please things are progressing well. The thing that would worry me is the childminder being nervous - dogs pick up on nervousness so quickly - so I'd make sure anything you do involving her she feels relaxed about, in case her nerves rub off on him :)

I'd agree with Zarah about the keys as well, personally I'm not a fan of noise aversion.. But presumably if the behaviourist has seen him then she has determined the reasons he's barking for (nerves/anxiety/guarding etc).

The behaviourist hasnt seen him yet - I spent two and a half hours on the phone on Wednesday evening, and two and a half hours on the phone last night, she also spent time talking to the rescue centre that I got him from. 

The idea of the keys is because she felt from what we told her had happened on Tuesday and Wednesday she felt Louis was working himself into a nervous tizzy - bit like my sons tantrum! and it was a way to get his attention quick as he wasnt responding to the childminders voice.

I am also very concerned because the childminder is so nervous - the behaviourist said that we should let Louis move around freely with her as quickly as possible but I know the childminder wasnt ready for that just yet so thats why she recommended the long rope.

The behaviourist has also said I can call any time night or day, she wants an update early next week, if it gets any worse she will come over straight away but she is going to keep in touch regularly and come and visit after christmas.  All of this time and effort she is giving me is out of kindness because he is a rescue dog and she feels I should have had some support before now.

I'll keep you posted,

thanks everyone

Maxine

Does the dog behave differently towards the childminder when the children aren't there. Pulis both herd and guard sheep from predators. If you have children, herding/guarding breeds can sometimes look upon your children as their 'flock', and will guard them from anybody your dog doesn't consider to be a member of it's own pack.

Hi Maxine

So glad youre getting things sorted! I bet your childminder is in for a special Xmas present this year :)

Well done to you all!
Caroline

Hi,

Since this incident I havent tried to see how Louis is with the childminder but no children.  In the summer holidays although I didnt need the childminder for my son because he was at a sports holiday club and my daughte was away, the childminder used to come in and see Louis for me there wasnt a problem once.   

We've had a good weekend with Louis socialising with the other dogs over the park - he met 5 dogs off lead in all - had a bark at one - but for the first time chose one that barked back so that put him in his place.  The rest he said hello to quite nicely and then we moved on - so fingers crossed this shows he has relaxed a bit and is feeling better for the coming week.

Hope you've all had good weekends and I'll let you know how it goes in the week,

Maxine

HI

Just to let you all know - the childminder has been back this week and she hasnt had a single bark from him.  He lays happily in his crate liek a Roman Emperor waiting for the next treat to come his way.  so all in all she only had to drop the keys twice and use the treats and all from his point of view is back to normal - she unfortunately still isnt ready to let him run free in the house but hopefully we will get there.  He can move around with the children but she will put herself in a different room behind a pet gate - I cant force to do anything different I just hope a bit more time will do the trick.

So thanks for everyones thoughts - I'm so relieved its turned out this way

Maxine

Hi Maxine,

this must be a huge weight off your mind :)  I hope things continue to improve and that your Childminder soon feels confident enough to have the dog in closer proximity.

Sounds as though things are working well.  Great News!!!

best wishes, Teri

phew!!!!! Ive been worrying about your boy,glad it was sorted out

Brilliant! So glad it's all worked out happily :)

Glad to hear all is well :)