We have been planning our mating one of our dogs (maiden) to one of our bitches (also a maiden) for many many months.  Her season was 8.5 weeks late in coming, last Friday (day 11 of season) I took her to the vet and he performed a blood test for ovulation.  He said that the results were inconclusive, she could be ready on Monday/Wednesday (days 14 & 16), however it would be best to try her on Sunday and if no joy, come back again for a further test on Monday.

On Sunday, things looked very promising, lots of tails to one side, and he was not afraid to jump on, she would then proceed to walk (slowly), hence was not totally standing still for him, he could not steady himself enough to make contact.  lots of happy playing, all looked good.  We did try to steady her, just by gently holding her collar, but he clearly liked her to be free as he immediaetly jumped off when anyone was holding her.  Without steadying her there was not a hope, so we called it a day.

On Monday morning, all was much the same.  Took her back to the vets at 4pm, they rang me 45 minutes later and said test much better this time, and she would definately be ovulating on Wednesday & Friday (days 16 & 18) this week, we discussed how relieved I was that she had not missed.  Again, he said to try them together late on Tuesday to see how they were.

We tried them together on Tuesday evening, but she was very growly, something we had not had previously, so we seperated them and left it at that.

This evening, we have put them together and she is awful (she's not going to bite him, of that I am confident) however, she is pretty wicked sounding (and normally the sweetest natured!) He is not taking it personally, however stops what he is doing as soon as she starts up.  He has had one or two go's back at telling her off, and she has demonstrated totally submissive behaviour towards him.  Though tonight we have no jumping on, he has tried twice and each time she has growled etc.  If I hold her collar, he does not want to know, we go back to the being free thing! Her tail is not swinging to the side so much (very little in fact!)

If I try to distract her, talking to her, toys whatever, he leaves the back end investigations and come over to the front end to see what is happening!

HELP!!!

I do have utter faith in my vet, though realise that human error can be made, I am not sure if she's missed, or if she just does not want to be mated! 

Suggestions please, needless to say, I will call the vet again first thing tomorrow morning to see what he has to say, though I am sure he will just suggest another test, which I am likely to take him up on.  We are planning on putting them together tomorrow morning again and seeing what they are like.

If we have missed, I would rather know, as it seems wrong to keep putting them together, however I don't want to miss my chance if we haven't missed.

I am totally torn and not sure what to think.  By the way I have had the assistance of a very experienced breeder, I myself am a novice and only have one litter every two-three years.

Do you think we have missed?  if not, any suggestions on what I can do?.....

Thanks for all suggestions, opinions and whatever you can offer to help

Candy

I myself am a novice and only have one litter every two-three years.



:)

I mean, I have not bred lots of litters, hence not had much experience of many matings and not alot of experience with "problems".  My friend however has had alot of expereince which i was asked her to assist.

This is a common problem when both dog and bitch are maidens. If it were me I'd make sure I held the bitch's collar firmly so that she can't put the dog off - if she turns on him he might totally lose his nerve and never regain the courage to try to mate a bitch again. If he won't perform with her being held then I'd give up for this season and use a different - proven! - stud dog next season.

Has he ever been scolded for 'inappropriate' mounting in the past? If he's of the breed that your post-name suggests, that could be part of the problem.

He has never been "scolded" for inappropriate mounting previously, and I have been very worried that he would lose his nerve, this does not seem to happened, but being a maiden he's not totally sure of what he's doing.  When he first jumped up, he did seem to look at me as if he was checking it was alright, and after mcuh praise, there was no stoping him!  He only stops, or won;t continue if shes growling, grumbling or carrying on.  Though as soon as she stops, he's back over having another try!

Yes, he is the breed that my post-name suggests, and I do have an alternative proven stud dog lined up, just in case, but currently I have decided that if it does not happen, I would try them again on the next season, and would prefer to stick with my orginal plan of mating my two dogs, I have planned for it for some time and want to give them every chance....

We will have one more attempt in the morning, with me holding her collar very firmly, and see what happens...

Sorry, was typing my last reply before I read this one. Ok, so he is keen and mounting her, probably he just needs some guidance then to get the right spot ;)  If he's had a few practise goes and not got there I would get someone else to firmly hold your girl while you assist him, guide him in and then clasp on behind him until they are tied as maiden dogs will often pull out of bitches.

Yes, maiden dogs often need very 'hands on' guidance from the handler, even with (the ideal) an experienced, keen, willing bitch for him to lose his maiden status to!

I agree with JG, sounds exactly like several maiden/maiden matings I've helped at. You do need to have a good hold of the bitch and not let her turn her head round at all and put the dog off. He will get used to you standing/kneeling at the front/side of her. Leaving them loose isn't an option I'd consider as she may put him off for life, it would be fine with a proven keen dog. I would muzzle her and keep a firm hold of her collar and encourage your dog to mount her, don't play with toys or anything else that will distract him :)  If he doesn't even try to mount her within say 10  minutes of licking/sniffing then I would take him away for a half hour. They are often much keener when they've been sperated. Get someone else to let him back into the room while you are already in place holding your girl so he is confident she's not going to eat him.

In my breed, dogs are trained to have their bitches held for them.  The bitch owner holds the bitch by her collar and the stud dog owner stops her from sitting down and guides the dog.  I wouldn't want my bitch mated without being in a controlled situation. :)

None of mine will allow actual mating until AFTER they have ovulated.

On the occasions that my difficult to mate bitch has been blood tested she ovulated on day 12, yet on the 3 occasions she has become pregnant she didn't get mated until day 16 the first time(4 pups so probably starting to go over) and day 15 (7 pups that time) and day 15 onwards this time and vet thinks there is a reasonable size litter there.

Some bitches will allow mating earlier and stand for longer, some only when the eggs are viable, and some males will not mate a bitch until she is ripe, but will practise (more mature ones won't bother).

The bitch I took to Finland was flagging from day 13 when we arrived, but the dog would not contemplate mating her until day 15, and she allowed him to mate her day 15, 16, and 17, but when he tried again on evening of day 17, she told him to pack it in.

The only matings I've witnessed have been carefully controlled - one person holding the bitch and stopping her sitting down, and one person guiding the dog to the right place. :-)

Matings in my breed are generally pretty natural with the studs and bitches owners standing by to steady during the tie only.  Hands on to the extent mentioned by other posters is only resorted to with inexperienced maidens or other difficult cases.

Really interesting to hear the difference in other breeds.  In over 20 years I've not attended a mating in my breed that hasn't been managed, nobody willing to risk possible damage to dog or bitch.  When I've attended matings in other breeds, I've seen some very nasty injuries, both to faces and private parts where the owners, usually relatively inexperienced ones I must say, have wanted the dogs to do it naturally. :(

Update from this morning:

Definately not missed, vet has done another test, she started ovulating yesterday!

So we put them together again, she started off pretty growly, (we started with her on a lead and muzzled), but eventually removed both as we really are confident that she nots going to kill him!) she was letting him go around her, eventually (due to his persistance) she caved in and started to play with him, this really got him going and he would mount her, he seemed much more confident.  I was able to hold her collar, however no grumbling/growling or anything at this stage.  This went on for about 30 minutes, then she got an itch she could not scratch!  We did mega circling, bum on ground and the moment sort of passed, after about another ten minutes she went back to telling him off again, though this time he seemed to quite like it! say no more....

So we have separated them again, and intend to try later again today, and clearly off and on all day tomorrow.

I feel much happier about the whole situation, he was getting much closer to the mark, and seemed more confident in his actions.  He does stop if you attempt to guide him in, and clearly prefers to be more naturale...but as soon as you take one step away from him, he is happy to have another go.  Previously he stopped if we held her, but this time I was able to put on hand on her collar to steady her, so it is moving in the right direction.

Don;t get me wrong, when we say au naturale we really are only one step away from him, they are NEVER left on their own, and we are within arms reach at all times.  We would prefer to be a bit more hands-on, as we would have better chance of getting a mating, however he clearly does not want that, and as he is a maiden I am not about to put him off.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions, keep them coming, all idea's are helpful, we are trying everything.  Someone suggested a different location, and as we had such dreadful weather this morning, we went to the summer house, being in there has produced the best results so far...

Thanks Again...

Just remember that the eggs are not ripe until two days after ovulation and stay viable for about 48 hours after that so you have up to about 4 days after ovulation before giving up.

Thanks Barbara, that gives me till Saturday possibly Sunday at a push...every day helps!

If it were my dog I would persevere with trying to help him, he will get used to you kneeling by his side and guiding him. When you said "she got an itch she could not scratch!  We did mega circling, bum on ground and the moment sort of passed" is it possible that he had managed to enter her then? If you had been holding her tightly - and helping him you may well have got a mating.

Good Luck :)

Your post sounds just like my very first ever Champdogs post several years ago now.  Oh how it seems so long ago.....

Since that time I've been present at matings for my own dogs and those of friends and aquantances and this does sound like my experience of a typical maiden mating.  I find it always helps to have the bitch on a collar and lead so you can hold her head steady and you may need to take a more 'hands on' approach to making sure he is aiming in the right direction.  One particular snappy girl needed a rolled towel around her collar to ensure she didn't turn on him.  Often once he's managed penetration they do settle down and just need supporting.  After all, they haven't had the benefit of going to classes, reading the books or having 'the talk' from their mum, so are unsure what is happening.

On my dogs first mating, we were convinced nothing had happened or was going to either but sure enough, 7 pups ensued!  After that it was usually plain sailing and he'd do the deed within 30 seconds if allowed! 

An anatomical adjustment from the vet has put all those days behind us now ..:rolleyes:

I've been watching this post with interest any luck yet Candidals???

Everyones suggestions have been spot on, but if you are still struggling can I now suggest something else.

You were in a really good situation where you have the stud to hand, to be honest I don't know why you have relied on the vets ovulation tests for readiness, personally with them both being maidens whenever I was free from day 10 I would have allowed the stud and bitch to be together to play and get used to each other, and relied on my bitch to tell me when she was ready, when she started standing for him then I would have had another handler to then help with guiding and the mating.

I know that most matings are quite clinical and holding the bitch and bringing in the stud is the best way for many matings, but you really need not have done it this way.

If your bitch was standing nicely on Sunday and not growling when he mounted her, to be honest I think Sunday, Monday and Tuesday were the best days to mate, now she is growling IMO this is a sign she is no longer interested, ovulation test or not! It is what your bitch feels that is important.

I think you are basically now left with a practically forced mating where you and another handler will have to hold your bitch steady with muzzle and all to hopefully get a mating now as I feel her time when she felt like doing it naturally has passed.

I have my fingers crossed that you manage to get these two together successfully.

Good luck. :-)

Some bitches behaviour and willingness does not necessarily coincide with when they are fertile, especially in a maiden, the same goes for a maiden dog he hasn't learnt when is the optimum time so can't be relied upon regarding timing. So in this case science (blood tests correctly interpreted) is more likely to be correct.

I have had maiden bitches demonstrate willingness early only to not allow penetration, but a proven stud won't bother trying anymore than just to flirt and check her condition.

I have lo had a bitch with lots of libido and very ready simply not want to allow penetration, and in this case blood tests were all I had to confirm that I was not trying to force an unready bitch, and got her mated with difficulty, very hands on.

Interestingly to get her second litter I had to have the male come to stay with her from the start of her season so she would warm to the idea (as on previous season she was having none of it) but still had to be hands on, yet this time she was mated no problem, but on all 3 occasions needed holding to prevent injury to the male as she hated the tie.. 

Her daughter who I took to Finland was flagging and standing from day 13, yet he dog wouldn't mate her for more days, and then she made it clear after the third day after that, that she was off the boil.

I'm not sure this is the case Carrington, as Brainless has pointed out so well you can't really rely on a maiden dog or bitch to just 'know' when the time is right. I have noticed in the past with maiden dogs that bitches do sometimes just get fed up with them pratting about :)  A bitch may stand willing for a day or two then start snapping at the dog (if all he is doing is humping at her back/shoulder/head :D)  but stand happily for another dog. I agree completely with Brainless that science is the way to go for this pair.

Hi Everyone,

No joy I am afraid, and as I said in an earlier post, I did have a back up lined up, but decided to wait till next time and give them another fair shot.

I have had a lenghty chat with the vet over the weekend, he is very convinced that as they are both "maidens", they were both not really sure of their own timings, I have to agree.  He has offered to test her again next time free of charge, and we are going to test from day nine onwards, which is more than fair. I do feel that I need the input of science for them both and I do appreciate that most people would let the body language of the dogs in questions tell them, but I did realise this one was never going to be easy.

I also have a stud booking for him, I did really want to be the first person to use him, however I have explained the situation to the bitch owner over the weekend and she still wants to give him a chance, he may feel more confident with a bitch that does not live under the same roof as him, she is going to have a back up lined up just in case.

Obviously, if he does go all the way and actually penetrates, we all feel that this could also help with the mating of my own bitch...

I would love to tell you all that he penetrated, but I am more than 100% certain he didn't (Thanks for the positive thoughts though...).  On a positive front, he was not put off at all on any front, about the growling/grumbling.  I do realise that some bitches can turn into totally alien beings when this sort of thing is happening, but both myself and my friend felt very happy that she would never actually bite him or hurt him in anyway, and she didn't.

Personally, I am still torn as to whether the blood tests were correct or not, she certainly seemed less interested and so did he, when the blood test results were stating that they were primary mating days, I don;t think we will ever know for sure, the vet is 100% sure, yet I saw and watched their body language and it really did not seem that way, so who knows!

I have spoken to all of my potential puppy owners and all of them are happy to wait till the next season and see what happens then, so all in all, I am glad I waited and didn't rush to use my backup stud dog.

Thanks for all of the suggestions, we really did try everything, so no idea was a bad idea!

Thanks Loads

Because he's still unproven as to his fertility what I suggest when he's used as a stud to someone else's bitch (obviously BAER tested normal or you wouldn't allow him to mate her!) is that if a mating takes place (fingers crossed) you either charge a nominal sum for his services (say £50) with the balance of the fee to be paid when the litter's born, or no fee at all until the litter's born.

I have arranged that a fee would only be payable once the litter is born.  I had already arranged that prior to my own recent mating saga (probably because that is the arrangement I had previously when I used a proven stud dog on my other bitch).  it seems fairer to me and I am more comfortable with this situation, as my previous stud dog owner said to me, "your not going anywhere and you will want the KC Litter Registration Form signed, won't you!"

And yes, of course the bitch has been BAER tested normal, I have seen the original papers and had lengthy discussions regarding the temprement and pedigree lineage.  I also know the bitch reasonable well as she is shown quite regularly, as are all of my dogs, which is when my boy obviously caught her eye...

You will probably be interested in this one Jeangenie, I have turned down 18 (yes eighteen) stud enquiries due to the bitches not having ever been BAER tested, these enquiries have all come in over the last 8 weeks - shocking I know!