Hi all
I hope someone out there can help me, i bought a pup from a lady in glasgow on saturday, the pup has had her 1st vaccination done and a vet check, while she was there the vet noticed she had an umbilical hernia, now i did not know this and was not told by the breeder this is what the vet had found, the woman knew that i was planning on having a litter fom her if she turned out to be ok and she said that would be fine, when i got home i found the hernia and immediately phoned the woman, who said she has spoken to her vet about this and he said it would be fine to bred from her, i have since spoken to her vet and he has told me she never approched him with this matter when they had the vet check, she only approched him when i phoned back to complain about the hernia, the vet told me that he would never recommend breeding from a dog with a defect ( i wouldn't do it anyway), i have since been to my own vet and have had mia examined and he has advise me to get my money back, there is also a possibility she is deaf, as he tried to do a hearing test he was baging thing of his table , clapping and banging his hands and she never finched once, i phoned the woman back last night and befor i could get a word in, i was bluntly told the pup had been vaccinated, vet checked and was in good health therefore i would not be recieving any money back and she certailnly would not be taking back the pup,i feel so sorry for the pup she certainly won't be going back to her, i am not sure what to do, i have spoken to a solicitor this morning and he has suggested i take her to court to get my money back. any help would be greatly appreciated.asap

violet-anne

I think, like your solicitor, that you have a very good case, particularly with both vets comments but I would get back to the woman, even knowing that you have spoken to a solicitor might be enough to make her see sense.

i have tried that last night but her exact words were, the pup was vaccinated, vet checked, the pup is healthy, No you will not be getting your money back and i am definately not taking the F.... Dog back, this is the end of the matter and put the phone down, i have been along to the sherrif court and have got a claim pack , so i am able to take her to court, but i have just found out that another woman who got one of the pups, her one also has a hernia and she was told the exact same as me.

I guess you will just have to persue it through the courts and, as I say, it does seem you have a good case.  Not sure if the outcome will require you to hand back the puppy though and this may take some time, long enough to become attached certainly.  What did your solicitor think?  Have you considered what you will do in such an event?

i have got attached to her, and i will fight tooth and nail that she does not get the pup back as i will not know what she has done to her, all i can imagine is the worst, if that's the come back i am getting just now from her,but this woman needs to be taught a lesson before some silly person falls for her trap again just like i have:rolleyes:

Did you have a contract stating she was for breeding and pay more for her as a result?  If not I cannot see that you are out of pocket as you still own a pet that you can love and, unbred, I don't think you can expect any further health problems from this issue.  If there is no compensation to be claimed for the loss of breeding possibilities all you are left with is the possibility of getting your money back but, I think, that might mean you would have to return her.

There are two types of hernia's so see which one it is first, with one there's no rpoblems breeding, with the other there could be possibilities, if you do a search on champdogs there have been afew threads on it in the past. :)

As for the deafness, I would get a proper test done first rather then just clapping and banging :)

I'm not sure I would wish to breed from either type.  Obviously the inherited, congenital type are a no no but even the type caused by trauma to the umbilicus by the mother are a sign that the abdominal wall has be damaged so unfair to risk carrying a pregnancy I think.

Depends on the size personally.  One of our bitches we were going to breed had a small hernia and when asking the vet he said it's so small it won't cause a problem.

A friend has also got a bitch with a very small hernia who has had two large litters and is fine.  Again vet said there was no problem.

The problem is that there seems to be an hereditary element to umbilical hernias, so best advice is to avoid breeding from animals with hernias at all, not only from the point of view of the risk to the mother but also the chances of passing on the tendency to future generations, some of which might be badly affected.

When vets say "there won't be a problem" they generally aren't considering future generations, just the risk to the dog in front of them.

both vets have recommend that she is not bred from, and i certainly would not be doing it, but the woman keeps saying it is fine to breed from her, her vets said it is fine , but he is telling me different

But JG in small breeds can we really afford to take out good quality bitches out of the breeding program?

Unfortantly with the red and whites we have vWD and clad in which the breed club tried saying only clear dogs can be bred, aswell as no dogs with PPC (in which we are very close now to DNA testing this) so those dogs where it isn't found till later in life will be taken out the breeding program earlier.  It's not leaving much hope for a future generations and sometimes you have to carry something in with the first couple of generations untill you can start being more picky.

I take your point ice queen, other factors, such as this, do come into play. 

As you say, the size of the gene pool has to be considered, but for a lot of breeds that isn't a problem. It's another health issue that has to be weighed in the balance before deciding to breed, and if you do, make sure that the chosen mate's line is clear of that particular problem. It's certainly not a condition that can be ignored.

Of course it can't be ignored and yes the other line would have to be clear and also try and rehome those pubs with hernia's, as long as not serious which is unlikely, into pet homes where they won't be bred.

Personally the same is what now goes for vWD where if you breed a carrier to a clear, you hope that you can pet home with a contract to say they will be neuterd or even a show home but not to be bred from and then breed from those who are clear.

In an ideal world all health problems will be removed as soon as the problem is found.

I suppose whelping at all is a gamble :) but personally any health elements that were known would rule it out for me.  It's the thought of knowing that you knew, if something went a miss, if you follow me :)

it's an umbilical hernia

An umbilical hernia can be either congential or trauma.

they can't say for certain if it is either

I'm not sure that this is the type of breeder to be buying a puppy from if you are hoping to breed from her later. :(  And you've learned that you have to be knowledgable and thorough when buying a puppy that you hope to breed from too to be sure that eyes and ears, as well as the things that you can easily check for yourself are OK too. :)

I wonder if the small claims court maybe the way to proceed? :)

If your vet suspects your puppy is deaf I suggest you contact (assuming you live near Glasgow):

THE SMALL ANIMAL HOSPITAL,
Bearsden Road,
Bearsden Glasgow
G61 1QH

Phone 0141 3305848

This is a department of Glasgow University and a Dr Anderson is in charge.

This site does BAER hearing tests so you'll know for certain if the pup is indeed deaf, because other tests such as hand-clapping etc are very subjective and can give false results, both positive or negative. A scientific diagnosis (the test is quick and painless; young pups need no sedation) with certificate to prove it will strengthen your legal position for compensation, that the pup isn't suitable as a pet for the average owner.

What breed is the pup, by the way?

Let me bet on Cavalier.

she is a lhasa apso
thanks for the details i will give them a call

i would name and shame her but don't know if that would do any good

Best not, it would not help your case legally anyway.  I think JG is asking as some breeds have a predisposition which would make it even more likely to be inherited.

i know but it's tempting

I would definitely go down the court route. She would have known that the puppy had a hernia and she has a huge attitude problem concerning the welfare of her puppies.

i am going down the court route, she knew when the pups were vet checked it had a hernia, and chose not to tell me, when approched about it she said i didn't have to tell you as my vet said it was fine, but her vet has a different opinion on this matter, she definately has a big attitude problem and doesn't care about the welfare of her pups what so ever

>doesn't care about the welfare of her pups what so ever

This is why I think you need to think very carefully, and perhaps take further legal advise, as to whether any action to get your money back might result in the puppy having to be returned.  The breeder may even sell her on to someone who will breed her or she might do it herself.

This article may put a differnt light on things:
http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/umbilical.html

thanks brainless

I can't see any credentials for the author but I am not too sure I buy into the idea that a breeder will know "intuitively" what they have got, particularly when the author goes on to say most will have never seen one ;)

Well her Vet didn't think it a problem, so just showing the other side of it.

Whose vet? The breeders?  I thought violet reported it as her telling porkie pies on that one.

she was reported , for telling lies

Who have you reported her to?

Hmmm....genetically inherited hernias are pretty rare and  many are something called 'delayed closures' which do not affect a bitch's ability to carry a health litter to full term.

I also think that it is very difficult to truly test a puppy's hearing by banging on the table - be very careful to get your facts 100% correct before you start accusing the breeder of anything ! -( although I do think her attitude leaves something to be desired ;))

Yvonne

oops Brainless got there before me - :D :D

Yvonne

Forgive me if Ive missed the point or got my wires crossed but if the breeder knew that you wanted to breed from your pup then she should have told you up front about the hernia.  Why didn't she tell you about the hernia before you paid for the pup if the hernia is not a problem.  Now perhaps she didn't know herself about the hernia, would this be possible? She sounds like a lousy individual let alone breeder and I would take this as far as I could

>both vets have recommend that she is not bred from

I would ask for this information to be put into writing, even if it means paying for it (which I would guess you probably will).  Your agreement was that you bought a puppy suitable for breeding and so she has breached this agreement. 

Apart from the if's and but's with regards to this pup's hernia for breeding purposes, the breeder just has the most horendous attitude I've ever heard of.  She should have mentioned the hernia what kind of breeder does not point out anything medical at the time whether serious or not.

And to not even contemplate wanting her pup back, when the new owner clearly is not happy is a terrible attitude, she obviously does not care for her pups only the money they bring.

As far as I am concerned with regards to hernia's it is not really until a pup is much older that a vet can really tell how serious or not it is going to be, the new owner needs to know either way, it was deceptive of her.

The deafness is a strange one, you must have a very thorough vet, I take my pups for first vaccination and they get a thorough examination from thermometer up the bottom - full bodily examination eyes ear checks etc. but I have never had a 8 week pup checked for deafness in any way shape or form, is this a new examination??? I wonder why your vet checks this at such a young age, as already stated I would not take clapping hands and banging as a proper deafness test. The pups mind could have been elsewhere at the time, checking out her surroundings and disinterested in the clapping etc.

I think Isabel is right, you can't have the pup and money returned too, it would have to be one or the other. As the pup is so young and if you are not happy with her you can pursue a moneytary refund with the fact that you have been sold a pup deceptively on the breeding grounds. (Of course this would have to be proven) But then you would have to return the pup.

If you want a pup to breed from, don't keep her any longer, (try not to be ruled by your heart) personally I would find her a new pet home yourself and take a loss in the money rather than return to this breeder. Phone her once more and tape her saying she does not want the pup back, take her to court for the difference that way you have proof that returning the pup was not an option and you can re-coup any money lost, and perhaps a good solicitor will get some kind of compensation for all you have been through too.

Then look for a good breeder, (champdogs comes to mind ;-) ) and get a pup that you can use to breed from.

If your happy to keep this pup as a pet then just let it go, and learn to check any future pups for hernias etc on collection as you have found to your peril there are unscrupulous breeders out there. :-(

Also with attitudes like that how good was the pups breeding in the first place?

she knew the pup had a hernia at the vet check and chose not to tell me, i should have been told as any responsible breeder would have, i have spoken to her vet again and he has said that this was pointed out to her at the time of the consultation, and does not know why she did not tell us, in his opinion now he said it is a private matter between me and her and does not want any part in it, but my vet is giving me a letter so it can be taken further, as for the deafness thing i asked him if he was able to tell if she was as i did not think she was very responsive, i know this can't be ruled out with just banging your hands together, he did do those banging thigs and the hand clapping and said there might, be a possibility but there would have to be a hearing test done first before anything can be ruled out.he did not say she was Definately, there is no point in talking to her again as her attitude stinks, and i don't think she would listen anyway i did try and give her my vets number but she said she wasn't interested and that was the end of the matter, i will take the pup for the hearing test to know for sure if she is or not, wether that means i am further out of pocket, but the main Priority now is the PUP.

I think you are on the horns of a dilemma here though. Certainly you should have bought a healthy pup or been told the truth about the hernia. However, unless you have some sort of written agreement about breeding I'm not sure how you can prove this aspect of the case. I'd also treat the deafness with some caution until a thorough hearing test has been performed because unless there was an extremely good reason to be concerned about a pup's hearing, I don't know any breeders who would have performed a thorough deafness test before letting a pup go at 8 weeks. But you still have the problem of deciding what you want the outcome of this potential court case to be since I can't see quite how you can be compensated AND keep the pup. Especially if there isn't some very watertight paper evidence that you've been sold a pup who is unfit for the sole purpose you bought it for.

Just out of interest, did you not look at the puppy and give it your own "health check"

I would always check over a puppy whilst in the process of choosing one, looking for lumps and bumps, checking eyes and ears etc.

I have normally noticed a hernia on puppies before, normally more predominant after a meal.

i did check the pup, but never picked up the hernia, my own fault really, but i still should have been told by the BREEDER, after the pups had been to the vet for there ist vaccination and vet check

I sympathise Violet.Anne, but if you are planning to breed, and you've already had litters to know what quality is in the breed, then you really should have made sure that it's up to your standard, not hers especially if she doesn't have a good reputation in the breed for breeding and selling quality pups. :(

Hi

Should the breeders vet be discussing this dog with its new owner? I thought they had client confidentiallity to. If  I was the breeder I would be changing my vet. Does the vet know exactly which pup he is talking about. She may of taken the whole litter along how will he know each individual one unless they had hernias.

Sorry I know not much help but I was just curious

Wendy

Should the breeders vet be discussing this dog with its new owner? I thought they had client confidentiallity to.

Yes they do.  I'm surprised that he is publically forwarding his client's confidential consultation.  Most Vets won't talk to the breeder of a puppy once it is in a new home.

Surely you know that Lhasas as a breed are prone to hernias ?

I presume you researched the breed before looking for a puppy & found your breeder through a breed club, you should notify the Breed club you found the breeder through as they will no doubt be very interested as it will be against any club's code of ethics to refuse to take back a puppy.

>Should the breeders vet be discussing this dog with its new owner?

No, I don't think they should but if I was Violet I would not be looking a gift horse in the mouth, let the breeder fight that one out ;)
If no puppy had been consulted on regarding this he would not have any problem in saying this one wasn't.