hello everyone

About 4 month ago we was in the kitchen and my sbt head started to shake (up and down) for about 1minute. I was worried and booked him straight away to go and see the vet. We did his boosters at the same time and when i told the vet about the head seizure like he told me that he may have had a small epilepsy attack and that there was nothing to worry about (he's 2 1/2) it wasn't uncommon and that he should be ok. this morning when my oh came back from their walk it started again, same thing, his head started to shake up and down.
does anyone know what it could be and if i need to take him back to the vet????
I am really worried!!!!!

thank you.

Cassey
If your vet diagnosed epilepsy in your dog then he should not have given him a booster!

Please go back to the vet and maybe see another at the practice or maybe change vets.

Your boy obvioulsy has a problem from what you say and he needs proper diagnosis and medication.

I'm sure there will be lots of people on here that can offer more advice.

Good luck
Maria

thank you mariaC for your response

the booster was his vaccination. he has to have them every year. Can the vet be right or wrong on saying it might have been an epilepsy attack? when he checked him he said that nothing looked wrong with him! I am a bit worried though.
I will definetly take your advise on board and seek another vet advice.

thank you.

It sounds as though the vet did the booster before he was told about the possible epilepsy (although having had an epileptic dog - who still get boosters, by the way - it doesn't sound like a typical epileptic seizure).

Try not to worry, Cassey. :) Even if your dog does have epilepsy there's no reason why it should affect him in a negative way, and it's quite likely he'll never need any medication. Good luck. :)

thank you Jeangenie for your response,

I think the vet checked him before giving him his booster because it took 30 minutes before he could actually give him his injection ( my poor baby is scared of needles:rolleyes: and wasn't letting the vet close to him with the needle!!!!lol) so we had a chat before hand and he checked him over (heart, ears, claws,etc...) and he said everything was fine. if it's not epilepsy what can it be????
I think the worse is not knowing, I had dogs all my life and i don't remember ever seen this before. When it happened he didn't looked stress, I was the one panicking!!!! I stroked him, cuddled him and he seemed fine except the head shaking. I looked at different site about epilepsy and i agree with you, it doesn't look like an epiletic seizure but I can't see what else it can be! checked his ears (clean), for ticks and fleas (frontline every month so it looked clear). try to book another vet but nothing free till thursday!!!! i am worried sick!!!

Bearing in mind that I'm not a vet (although I work at a vet's surgery and hear an awful lot of what goes on in during consultations) and in no position to diagnose because I haven't examined your dog, it sounds more connected to the inner ear and balance than to epilepsy. An accurate diagnosis would probably involve MRI scans etc, and not many people go down that route unless they have good insurance. I know it's terribly worrying though. Hope he recovers soon. :)

With epilepsy you only ever want to medicate if the seizures are severe and very frequent, otherwise the dog is far better off without medication.

If not epilepsy -well you are describing my Cavalier who has around 30 of these episodes a day. In his case it's due to his heart, and happens when the heart fails to pump enough blood so the brain gets short of oxygen. It only lasts a few seconds and you can bring him out of them just by talking to him.

It is perfectly possible to have very minor epileptic seizures though -not at all every case leads to shaking, kicking and foaming at the mouth etc.

It's very difficult for vets to diagnose something like this without seeing it happen, so if you have a mobile phone that can video, video the dog if it happens again so you can show it to the vet!

Hi Cassey
Sorry to read about your boy.  It's so worrying when we don't know what is the matter with them, but at least it's not worrying him.  Nothing really helpful to add, I'm afraid, other than wondering why you use Frontline so often.  Is monthly the recommended dose?  I'm rather anti chemicals, I'm afraid, and only use that sort of thing if I see evidence of "little visitors" - haven't seen a flea on mine for years (RRs so very shortcoated).  Had you recently used the Frontline, as a matter of interest?

Cassey
When you took your boy to the vet, the vet should have given him a health check beforehand so should really have found out about the problem you describe before boostering.  Also booters are not necessary every year, the manufacturers state every 3 years and you can also have a titre test done yearly to establish whether a booster is necessary or not!

I think ridgelover makes a valid point about using Frontline so often. Monthly seems far too much for such a strong chemical.

I used to use this on my last dog and he went very strange after using it on him, almost in a trance, staring at the wall and we couldn't get his attention for about 12 hours.  Our old vet didn't think it was a problem, and then his next booster killed him.

I find that garlic protects my new boy together with tea tree shampoo and brewers yeast.

Hope the info helps and I do think you should get him checked out and a properly diagnosed, both for his sake and your peace of mind.
Maria :)

Maria, boosters are due every year, it is just some diseases that do not require a booster sooner than 3.  The shaking problem would not have been apparent to the vet on examination unless reported by Cassey and I am still unclear whether that happened or Cassey expected the vet to be able to tell anyway.

hello isabel,

yes, when i got to the vet i told him what happen and he checked him but couldn't see anything wrong with him. And about the boosters I was also told that they were due every year. thank you for clearing that up for me, I started to worry on wherever the injection was the problem or not!!!!!!!!

>I started to worry on wherever the injection was the problem or not!!!!!!!!

Obviously not if the problem was there before :)  As JG says a previous fit is not enough in itself to prevent a dog being regularly vaccinated and it certainly sounds like your vet gave him a very thorough examination if it lasted 30 minutes :)

oh yes definitly the vet checked everything and worry as I was for my boy:rolleyes:! I also asked lots of questions but the vet didn't look worried so i thought, yes maybe it was a one off and hopefully it won't happen again. But still it's very strange and I don't want my vet to think that I am overdoing it with bailey! And today it happened again so there must be something wrong with him!!!!
going to the vet on thursday if he tells me that there is nothing wrong with him what am i suppose to do???? can i ask for a scan???

You can ask for anything but when we are not vets it is sometimes better to ask them which tests would be appropriate ;) it may be, for instance, that a heart check ECG or a brain trace EEG would be more appropriate initially, I really don't know.

thank you

I will post back on thursday to let you what the vet thinks.

Yes, please do :)

going to the vet on thursday if he tells me that there is nothing wrong with him what am i suppose to do???? can i ask for a scan???

Yes Cassey, he is your dog and as long as you are prepared to pay for it then you can ask for a scan or even a second opinion if you are not happy with your vet.

My old vet didn't seem worried about my dog (the one that died in March) then he realised too late that he was completley out of his depth.

So do get a second opinion and ask as many questions as you need to, better to overdo it than regret it afterwards!

thank you for everybody's help.

my dog bailey came from battersea dogs home. the vet there told me to use frontline every month and drontal + every 3 month so i did for the past 2 years that i had him. recently we had a new addition to the familly and was advice by our vet to do the same for her. We never had any problems before but it's true using natural remedies is far better than using chemical ones! i'll definitly have a go with the tea tree shampoo and brewers yeast and garlic.
For the vaccination i was told at battersea to do it every year.I even get a reminder card by the post to have it done. could the vaccinations boosters be dangerous? I am upset that the vet didn't tell me!!!!!
last year we done his passport and without all the vaccinations it wouldn't have qualified so we had to get them done.
about filming him when it happens, is a very good idea and i will do so next time but it's very difficult when you don't have a clue when it will happen. twice in six month and never before, very strange!

Boosters are due every year and for the vast majority of dogs are very safe.  If Battersea advised monthly flea treatment he may have a history of bad reaction to flea bites perhaps they will have kept his records and can advise you on that.

>For the vaccination i was told at battersea to do it every year.I even get a reminder card by the post to have it done. could the vaccinations boosters be dangerous? I am upset that the vet didn't tell me!!!!!

>last year we done his passport and without all the vaccinations it wouldn't have qualified so we had to get them done.

You do not need to have the disempter,hardpad, lepto etc vax done to get a PP only the rabies vax & even that isn't yearly

There is a great debate re vax on here & in the dog owning world in gerneral

I've titre level checks done on my dogs since the early 1980's(on the advice of my then vet BTW)I even had one dog who was never vax at all he never needed them as his titre levels from 16 weeks old showed he didn't need any

Few vets will 'fess up to the actual frequency of vax as recommended by the manufacturers & very very few offer titre level testing as an alternative, vax are bread & butter money for vets, BTW vax cost them less than a fiver for a full course !!

>Few vets will 'fess up to the actual frequency of vax as recommended by the manufacturers

My vet has a chart on the wall of her consulting room but if anyone is still uncertain they can check it out for themselves on the link I have given.

>BTW vax cost them less than a fiver for a full course !!

As Cassey has found out, the fee covers rather more than just delivering an injection :)

Well our vet charges £53 for a course of vax which means the other "bits"cost £48 !!! for about 10 minutes of a vets time on average which means a vets time is on a par with a QC's fees of £500 an hour

The recommendations shouldn't just be up on a wall but explained to clients & titre testing should be offered

It might do if you didn't have to deduct all the overheads of running a surgery for all the hours work is conducted not just the consultation hours when fees are being collected :)  Anyway you are surely not suggesting people should decline to vaccinate to save money? ;)
The more time vets spend explaining the protocols to people unqualified to offer a reasonable arguement against the combined opinions of the specialists anyway, the more fees would need to go up.  I think most might choose to know that their vet is following the recommendations as indicated by the chart being displayed :)  Those that object to veterinary surgeons making these sort of professional decisions on their behalf are probably going in fully informed anyway.  Nor would I wish my vet to waste my consultation time explaining titre testing for exactly the same reason, assuming that she would hold a different view to mine that they are only a tool to determine current status rather than as a useful predicator of the the year ahead anyway.

Hi Cassey

Most vets now advise that boosters be given every 3 years as per manufacturers instructions.

I think Isabel may be talking about the Lepto part of the vaccine which is thought to be needed every year.  However, the Lepto vaccine which is available in the UK only covers a couple of strains of lepto and it's not yet known exactly how long protection lasts, it could be between 3-7 months so for part of the year the dog may not be covered anyway.  This advice was given to me by a Professor specialising in this field.

Virbac, a drug manufacturer advised in a letter to me that in a perfect world it would be far better for all dogs to have a titre test (blood test) each year to establish whether a booster is necessary or not.  Much better than pumping lots of chemicals into our animals in my opinion too!

You'll find that there are lots of people both pro and anti vaccine on this forum, I think I fall somewhere in the middle, I think it's necessary to keep our dogs safe, but definitely not a good idea to booster yearly.  I did that with my last dog and he died in March aged 3 years old, after a massive adverse reaction to his yearly booster.  Yes, I received a reminder card each year for him too!

From what you say it seems as though you do give rabies vaccine too - if so then this is best given by itself and not at the same time as other vaccines.

It's a minefield the booster/vaccination issue, and you may want to take a look at this website  http://www.canine-health-concern.org.uk/
to have a look at some of the alternatives.

The best advice anyone can give you is to find out as much as possible about vaccines, talk to your vet about the pros and cons and then make an informed decision - and one that you are happy with.

If you want any further info you can pm me as I know these debates can become quite heated and you'll probably end up feeling even more confused.
Maria

The BVA recommend that their members follow the manufacturers recommendations which for Intervet are clearly spelled out here.  It is Lepto and Parainfluenza by the way Maria.  These protocols are established from the group findings and opinions of the specialists in the field rather than a single individual.  You may think it is definately not a good idea to booster annually but I'm afraid these veterinary scientists do :)
I am not sure that it is correct to say your dog died from a massive adverse reaction to a booster.  Sad though your loss was and regardless of the ensuing care he got, according to your web site he became ill from ingress of bacteria at the injection site.  This is something that can occur with any injection, vaccination booster, antibiotic or even sterile water.  We do not as a rule shave animals and swab the skin so I think this will always represent a risk but not one that perhaps justifies loosing the benefits of protection against disease.

My dog did die from an adverse reaction to his booster Isabel no ifs or buts he went to vets fit & healthy, had his booster, was taken ill as it was being paid for & died at the vets three hours later

A senior forensic scientist did the PM & found that the vax had caused his death

The scientist isn't a vet, but knows more about the causes of death in both humans & animals than any vet, she is at the top of her profession

I'm rather surprised that you have bothered to look at my website Isabel, after all, you did say you would never read it as you would probably forget or didn't have the time, I seem to recall!  :rolleyes:

However, you have either mistakenly or deliberately misinterpreted what is written on my website, a talent which you appear to be most accomplished.

Spangler died through an illness caused by his yearly booster.   Virbac (the drug manufacturer involved) paid all costs for his treatment without my even requesting this!  Makes you think doesn't it?   Even the vet admitted it was the cause!

I looked as I recalled that you said you would put the manufacturers letter there verbatum but I could not find that.  People had best look for themselves then as to what was found regarding the bacteria introduced at injection.

Anyone interested in the previous discussions of your particular case would be better using the search facility rather than us going over it all again. 
It may well be the case that some dogs will react adversely but anecdotal evidence is not a reasonable way to determine the level of risk as opposed to the level of benefit.  As we both know other posters can provide case histories of dogs that died from the diseases we vaccinate against.  The licensing procedures and protocols are the best way to deal with that balance.

Can anybody find the packet insert on the web for Nobivac?  The link that I had saved to the Intervet website doesn't work anymore.  :(

If you click on each vaccine you should find the product data

Nobivac

>but anecdotal evidence is not a reasonable way to determine the level of risk as opposed to the level of benefit

Anecdotal evidence is an informal account of evidence in the form of an anecdote, or hearsay

Anecdotal ??? No mine is scientifically proven evidence Isabel Totally different !

Your friends account was not accepted though, due to her qualification being deemed inappropriate.  We can split hairs if you like but either way it is not likely to ever be acceptable as part of a study is it?

It was a scientific Pm not one done by a vet with no PM experience & as she had in the past done PM's for at least three of the vax companies how convenient for one of them not to accept her evidence when it showed their product was at fault-funny how her not being a vet had previously not been a problem & even now she is being asked to do work for the self same company !!!(which she refuses)

To blindly accept everything that comes out of the mouth of a vet is foolish, if I had done this one of my dogs would have been operated on for HD when in fact he had perfectly good hips(3:3=6)& my Rjj would have been castrated because at 13 & 16 weeks he only had one testicle descended-he now has two perfectly formed descended testicles, fortunately I have never been one for blindly accepting anything

I only started titre testing in the early 1980's on the advice of a vet,  who was even then becoming very concerned over the number of adverse reactions to vax he had seen in his clients dogs in the previous 30 odd years ! I didn't just jump into it either I researched(pre internet so not just a case of googling a few words) & talked to the people( at the then cutting edge) at length

Oh dear Isabel my dog & his death are part of a study a worldwide study-not funding by the vax companies like the ones you like to quote, but as part of a totally independentally funded study(not reliant on pro or anti vax groups)-all the cases have to have had an independant PM done by an experienced pathologist-not just your bog standard vet !

>To blindly accept everything that comes out of the mouth of a vet is foolish

Who is suggesting we do? We are talking about protocols accepted by the entire body of veterinary opinion in the UK, the BVA.
Who is funding your study?  I am not too sure of the value of a veterinary study conducted by non veterinary scientists but no doubt the veterinary community will cast their eyes over it when they publish.

I can't believe this whole argument is taking place yet again.  Every time the subject of vaccine comes up it's the same old thing.  Everything has been said before so why posters don't just point people to the particular threads that deal with it is beyond me.

Debs

We could do that and we do :)  but sometimes fresh issues are raised nor is it obligatory for anyone to continue reading a thread that does not interest them ;)

I'm sure that I've raised this point before, and that you have successfully evaded it before Isabel ;) - but, just for the sake of clarity - are you or is anyone in your family, connected professionally to the veterinary profession or the drug industry?

It would just help us see where you are coming from, as you always seem so defensive of vets.

I have nothing but admiration for my vets - but as in every profession in the world, there are bad vets.

Margot :)

>are you or is anyone in your family, connected professionally to the veterinary profession or the drug industry?

I don't recall every being asked that, I certainly would not have evaded it :rolleyes:  The answer is no.  I have relatives in the human medical trade and human medical research but nobody in the veterinary trade or any drug company.

>but as in every profession in the world, there are bad vets.

No doubt there is :)  I only feel inclined to defend the scientific and accademic process, for which one of the functions is, of course, to safeguard us from individual vets who are bad or simply wrong :) and science generally really

Thanks :D - maybe I have just asked the question previously just as the thread has been pulled ;)

Margot

Very likely :D

come on guys

I am very sorry to hear about the loss of your dogs but I think that at the end of the day everyone has got different opinion on which is which and so on... nobody will never agree about the vaccinations given to our dogs. Each dog will respond differently to various vaccines. To be honest with you when i first took my dog to the vet, he didn't even tell  me  what make of vaccine he was using and i didn't ask. But after reading your posts, i regret that i didn't ask!!!!!!!!!!!! Because if some vaccines are(supposely) dangerous for our doggies why some vets are still using them?????!!!!!!
both of my dogs are using Eurican (I hope it's safe) for their vaccination and they don't seems to be affected by it , I think this is not the reason why bailey had his head going up and down like this because the first time it happened was just before his second booster and the second time was 1 month after the booster, so i am still clueless about his problem!!!!
For the passprt it was expensive £150 it included vaccination against rabies, blood test, check, and paper work.

I am sorry you have been confused like this.  I don't think there has ever been any suggestion, let alone evidence, that any particular make of vaccine is more likely to create a reaction than another which the research indicates is a very low risk anyway.  Consequently it is nothing unusual if a vet does not bother to inform you what they plan to use but it will generally be on documentation given.  The fact is few people will be concerned.   You should discuss this again with your vet, who is better qualified to explain it all to you than anyone here but, as you say, the vaccine does not seem to have any bearing on your dogs behaviour anyway.

nobody will never agree about the vaccinations given to our dogs

I agree cassey and I think all anyone can do is try to find out the facts for themselves and come to a decision that they feel happy with, irrespective of what other people may say or do and then take responsibility for that decision.  After all, we are the ones who share our lives with our animals - not the vets or vaccine companies.

Do hope you get to the bottom of what is causing the shaking head problem.  As it is clearly worrying you, I think you need to investigate further.

The trouble is none of the other people supplying "facts", on the internet for instance, share their lives with our animals either and in the vast majority of cases cannot be held accountable for the advise they give.  Vets are not only accountable but have demonstated their knowledge and understanding in their qualifications. 

I like the way you put "facts" in quotes Isabel, facts are no less facts because you don't agree with what they say. :)  There are experts on all sides and it is up to the individual which experts they believe, which is a personal choice and then we have the idea of personal responsibility which seems to be an alien concept to some.

I'm sure there are many people on here and elsewhere who could say exactly how accountable vets and experts in many fields are when things go wrong.  :rolleyes:

Anyway I have said all I need to on this post I think. :)

>For the passprt it was expensive £150 it included vaccination against rabies, blood test, check, and paper work.

My Rjj's cost me £110 & that included the microchip !

Your friends account was not accepted though

That's laughable Isabel!  I think you will find that the vets, their governing bodies and the vaccine manufacturers do not accept anything that questions their procedures or drugs    hence their stance that adverse reactions to vaccination are rare!

Burying ones head in the sand springs to mind!

If this was my dog I would suspect that the problem might be linked to the frequent doses of frontline.
Cassey, you say that the Battersea vet advised monthly applications for Bailey and your own vet advised the same for your new dog.  This seems a bit unusual given that the manufacturer recommends every two months for routine flea control.
As regards the vaccination boosters this is something only you can decide.  A bad experience many years ago involving a vet who I had previously had every confidence in, changed my whole thinking on the subject.  As a result my current dogs (ages 10 and 5) have never been boostered.

I do hope you find out what's causing Bailey's problem.