I do rely on you lot now you know!

My pups (5 months) are on wainwrights and they loved it from day one.  They really used to scoff it as only doggies can!  However, over the past couple of days, their interest has depleted somewhat.

They just don't seem as excited to eat it anymore. When will tell them it is "din dins", they leg it to the kitchen, but just aren't eating it as quickly as before? 

We only feed them this dried food, and we stopped moistening it about 3 weeks ago.  They always have water though?

Should I supplement their food or will that just encourage them to eat the "nice" bits?  Do they need variety?

Any thoughts?

Hi Jennyrose79

Could it be that you are overfeeding them slightly?  That can often be the cause of a loss of appetite with healthy animals.

In response to your query "do they need variety".  I think the accepted answer is "no" - you can feed them the same thing day in, day out, as long as it is a "complete" food.  But do you want to do that?   I enjoy giving my dogs a variety of food to eat that they really enjoy (I give my dogs a BARF diet).  It is up to you to decide on how you are going to feed your dogs.  You could add a little bit of something tastier to their meals, but you will run the risk of them getting pickier about their food. 

I'll be interested to read the other responses - feeding questions generally get a lot of "discussion" going!!

oooh, what's a BARF diet?  I'm so not with the lingo!

'BARF' is 'bones and raw food' - or latterly 'biologically appropriate food'. It is a diet 'invented' by Ian Billinghurst an Australian vet. It has many individual proponents but the vast majority of vets think it dangerous and I agree with them.

To answer your question, I wouldn't add anything to your pups' food. I have a breed where the bitches especially are famed to do a very convincing impression of a dog who will starve itself to death unless it's palate is pandered to. The alternatives are tough love or going to the Chinese/Indian to pick up their different menu choice every day. Dogs don't need variety, tough love is easier and it is healthier for the dog in question. In your case I'd agree with Ridgielover - your pups may be getting a little too much food. I'd cut them back a little, increasing the food again later when they have started to eat well again.

Hi Jas

Interested to read your response about my chosen feeding method, especially your comment that the vast majority of vets think it's dangerous.  None of mine have expressed that concern - my last one switched her dog over to the BARF diet!  But each to their own .... 

I wonder why BARF feeders always are so defensive? The comment was about BARF diets in general not your 'chosen feeding method'.

Like it or not, the vast majority of vets DO regard BARF feeding as dangerous. Every vet I know has seen and treated probelms due to this diet.

The proponents of BARF blithely dismiss the dangers of infection, parasites, bone perforation, bone impaction and dietary imbalance. I have a medical and scientific background, so I don't. What little research has been done on the diet HAS shown it to be dangerous and unbalanced.

BARF was 'invented' by a vet with no secondary or nutritional qualifications and who had a rider on his web site saying that he takes no responsibility for ill effects of advice given by him in personal consultations. Raw feeding methods vary wildly depending on when you read Billinghurst or if you follow the other equally under-qualified, self-appointed gurus. Most people feeding BARF seem to trawl the web for advice avidly given by toally unqualified evangalists. So there is not even a single diet, just a mish-mash made up by people with no real experience of dogs.

In the recent past very experienced and often large scale breeders  fed a home made (not raw) diet to puppies and adults. You imbs like that today because the majority of dogs are fed a scientifically balanced commercial diet formulated by properly qualified nutritionists.

If the 'Grand Old Ladies' (and Gentelmen) of yesteryear who had decades of experience, and many dogs and many litters, couldn't get a balanced home made diet right I doubt that today's BARF feeder - who almost certainly has much less experience of dogs and is armed only with a couple of pop pseudo-scietific books and the ramblings of totally unqualified denizens of the web - is likely to.

However Jas, what works for one dog, may not work for another.  Ridgielover's doggies may get on well with it, and we can't really judge that.

It isn't a diet I would prefer, but that doesn't mean it isn't right for some doggies.

Not that I'm having a go, but I am quite new to the forum, and really enjoy the helpful feedback I get, but sometimes, I think people are a bit too quick to judge.

Please don't take this badly, its just my opinion ;-)

Mine get on fine raw fed too, and my vet has helped with the 'balance sorting' so he wasn't totally against it :)
Before I fed raw I used to find one of mine would get 'bored' before the 15kilo bag ran out, I started adding things like fish, eggs etc. but even then the enthusiasm would get less and less. Because they now have a varied diet of fresh meat and veg, fruit etc I have yet to see them turn their noses up at anything I put in their bowls, or indeed eat with less gusto :)

If you want to add extras, don't forget to reduce the amount of complete to compensate and be prepared that they might not ever eat complete on its own again :rolleyes: not saying yours will, because as been said before, all dogs are different :)

Jennyrose, I don't take it badly at all. :) BARF may work for some dogs some of the time. But the risks are real to all dogs fed this way all of the time. My greatest concern is for large/giant breed puppies fed this way because I do not believe that BARF/raw diets are balanced. This is supported by the small amount of research that has been done.

But the risks of perforation, bone impaction, infection and parasites are real too. I feel strongly about this, partly because  a dog I was fond of was put on the BARF diet and his owners told everyone they knew how wonderful BARF was. Apart from attacks of diarrhoea, all went well for a couple of years. Then he got a massive bone impaction in his colon. This led to a perforation and despite the best efforts of his owners' very good vets, he died. My Sales Agreement (for a giant breed) now contains a clause asking new owners to agree not to feed a BARF style diet.

Everything has its risks, there have been stories of dogs choking to death on kibble, dogs having pigs ears/raw hide chews wedged in their throats and dieing,  dogs running headlong into trees and breaking their necks ..... the list is endless, do you put all of this into you puppy sales agreement too?

Everything has its risks, there have been stories of dogs choking to death on kibble, dogs having pigs ears/raw hide chews wedged in their throats and dieing,  dogs running headlong into trees and breaking their necks ..... the list is endless, do you put all of this into you puppy sales agreement too?

Apart from the claims of BARFers I've never heard of a dog choking to death on kibble. And the BARFers never cite any specific real dog that they know of it happening to.

One can't realistically put everything in a Sales Agreement but I do verbally warn new owners that hide chews can be dangerous and advise againt them.

My breed becomes so single minded about the chase that they may indeed get fouled in barbed wire or, much more rarely, hit a solid object at speed. I tell new owners that their dog may indeed injure itself if they allow it to hunt, and they must weigh this risk against the fact that hunting is the hound's greatest pleasure. I do advise them not to let their dog hunt in areas where there is barbed wire.

Sounds like you do know your stuff!

I think what I'll actually end up doing is keeping them on their normal food but adding a few interesting additions for them every now and again.

Oooh, I've just realised the time.... no wonder Douggie is looking disgruntled at me... way past bedtime!  But it is too addictive, really it is!

>I think what I'll actually end up doing is keeping them on their normal food but adding a few interesting additions for them every now and again.

I will warn you now, once you start adding stuff you will probably have to continue, once they know how great it can taste they wont want to go back to boring kibble !!  You said you are on wainwrights, have you tried the salmon and potato ? mine adore it and because it smells really fishy it might be more tempting for them.

LOL never mind Jennyrose, the dogs get used to it. Its when you start to neglect the rest of the family you get in BIG trouble! :D

My boyf doesn't get a look in anyway, the puppies took care of that! :-D

Hi Jenny,
why don't you just go back to wetting the food? if they ate it like this then I would go back to it. There is nothing to say that you can't feed a complete dry food with water added. This would also help with them not getting picky ;-) Also it can sometimes be quite an amount of water a dog hs to drink if you don't wet the dry food down (especially in the summer) so this would all help and reduces the risk of bloat as the food has already expanded prior to eating :-)
Good luck

Very sensible advice, Emma. :)

Too late to edit. The 5th paragraph, which makes no sense in the original post, should read:

In the recent past very experienced and often large scale breeders  fed a home made (not raw) diet to puppies and adults. You only have to look at photographs of their dogs to see legs that would be considered deformed today, even in big show winners. We don't see limbs like that today because the majority of dogs are fed a scientifically balanced commercial diet formulated by properly qualified nutritionists.

Jas, not that I agree with it but one of the top breeders in my breed feeds only tripe and mixer biscuit to all of her stock from puppies and to my knowledge has had no detrimental affects.

Some top breeders in my breed also only feed raw. Some champions too ;)

>Dogs don't need variety, tough love is easier

dogs may not need variety but surely a bit of variety is better for them than chucking the same old boring bowl of biscuits in front of them, mine were on BARF (which in my opinion is the best diet for dog as it is a species appropriate diet, but I shant go into it :rolleyes: ) unfortunately ive had to temporarily take them off of it due to a change in my own circumstances but I would much prefer to feed them this.  At the moment they are on a complete food but I always mix something in with it, they usually have a block of tripe or some other AMP frozen food or a tin of fish or some natural yogurt, why should we expect them to eat the same thing day in day out? ive tried the kelloggs diet myself and I couldnt even manage that so I certainly dont expect my dogs to.

>>Dogs don't need variety, tough love is easier,<<

Who says dogs dont need variety? The pet food manufacture who wants you to stay on their food??And why would i want to inflict TOUGH LOVE on my dogs :( This bag of "complete and balanced" food that has "everything a dog needs" may not have enough vitA for my dog,or enough minerals for that dog and certainly not enough or perhaps on the rare occasion too much fat and protein for joe bloggs dog. I wouldnt eat the same packet of dried food for every meal if it was claimed to be complete and balanced for humans,i dont know anyone who would

Sure feeding a dog nothing but dry food day in day out is "easy"........ for the owner,but is it really in the best interests of the dog? I rotate dry food each month,a bag lasts my dogs 1 month and when thats finished i swap to another brand.They also get fresh foods mixed in with their dinner meal everyday,some days they get no kibble at all (shoot me down in flames :rolleyes: ) They get get raw meat(chicken,beef,lamb,tripe,liver,heart,rabbit etc etc),cottage cheese,yogurt,sardines,scrambled eggs,raw or cooked,mackarel,left overs from our dinner,the occasional fruit and veggie glop mixed with different oils(CLO,EPO,olive,safflower,fish,i rotate),this is not all at once ofcourse,they get something different each day or two.Once a week i do a huge crock pot of meat,organs and veggies,i usually cook a whole chicken bones and all,let cook for 24 hours after which the bones crumble and turn to mush,much like the bones found in tins of fish,and they go nuts for it. One thing they do get every day with out fail are RAW meaty bones,from the various meats listed above,this takes care of their teeth which are perfect and white,not to mention the superior nutrition bones provide and also gives them the mental and physical stimulation they need.A huge raw marrow bone can keep them occupied for hours,and they are in seventh heaven :D Much better than those cooked,sterilised things found in pet shops,and those horrible pigs ears and raw hides that have caused so many choking and blockage deaths :( Jas i hope you also put that in your puppy contract?? As i have heard of far more fatalities and serious injuries from things like raw hide and pigs ears than i have of fresh species appropriate raw bones.

Show me one case in which a dog had trouble with RAW bones(not cooked as most of these cases seem to be from) and i'll show you ten cases from which dogs have thrived on this diet. Show me a case of a bone blockage/perforation,and i'll show one,two,three of a raw hide blockage/perforation.

Some people will have you believe that feeding a dog is some kind of scientific process that  only a team of nutritionists behind closed doors can formulate,and us dum dums will kill our dogs of malnutrition if we ever dared try to feed our dogs ourselves.I'm not a raw feeding evangelist,my dogs get a large variety of cooked,raw and processed foods,however i do believe that nature does not often make mistakes and dogs have evolved to eat raw food,you just cant argue with that! No one in their right mind could say dogs have evolved to eat dry,processed packet food,not in ours,our grandchildren or great,great grandchildrens lifetime anyway.Dogs have been in existance for thousands upon thousands of years,commercial food only a mear 60 or so years,evolution just doesnt work that quickly ;)

Anyway this post has gone off on it's own tangent in a direction i didnt mean it to go to :o My point was going to be that adding fresh foods to your dogs diet is a good thing and something every living,breathing creature deserves and NEEDS to thrive to the best of it's ability.So your dogs may or may not eat dry food on it's own after getting a taste of real food,can you blame them?.I know that if i lived on nothing but dry food my body would be screaming for real,fresh food,i dont think dogs are any different.Adding tasty but healthy extra's is for the good of your dogs health,not to the detriment of it.I know some people may disagree but i do believe dogs get bored of eating the same thing for every meal,every single day.Where's the excitement in that.Feeding our dogs is one of the easiest ways to promote good health and something that is totally in our control unlike other environmental factors,we have domesticated them so much over the years,now adays they may get 2 walks a day if they're lucky,many are caged up all day while their owners are at work,the least we can do is make their meal times as exciting and varied as we can,where's the harm in that,i just cant see any argument against giving our dogs a varied,fresh whole food diet.

> Dogs don't need variety

If a doctor told you to wean your child (presuming you had one) onto a "complete" food, and then feed them that same meal day in day out, with only one possibly two protein sources, would you do it? I think the majority of us would agree that it was a bizarre and wacko idea, and would change doctors. I remain perpetually confused as to why people don't question vets in regards to their dogs in the same way we would a doctor regarding a child - personally I can't see the sense in feeding the same food each and every day for the dogs entire life Each to their own though etc...:D

Surely assuming that a dog wants variety in the same way that humans crave it is antropomorphism? My dogs certainly seem to look forward to their boring old dinners.

And given the diets that many people in the Western world choose to make themselves obese with, perhaps they would be better off being fed only a kibble that contains all the nutrients they need? :) :)

I'm not assuming that a dog wants variety in the same way a human would :D  I'm talking about which diet is the more natural and species appropriate one.

Not sure about kibble for the obese but there are those shakes and whatnot you can get which are supposed to contain all the nutrients - only recommended for temporary use though I believe, as they wouldn't be healthy day in day out :D

I'm talking about which diet is the more natural and species appropriate one.

Sorry, but IMO this "species appropriate" stuff is silly. A dog, or any other species needs certain nutrients (NOT the same as ingredients) in a balanced form. A wild dog or wolf will eat whole carcases, not chicken waste - and wild dogs and wolves simply don't live as long as pet dogs. Part of that will be down to a better lifestyle and vet care but several wolf sanctuaries have changed from feeding raw to using dog food. A wolf sanctuary that I have had contact with changed because of the number of problems associated with raw feeding.

Who feeds chicken waste? :rolleyes: I think you're more likely to find that in kibbles. I for one do feed whole carcasses, maybe not the whole thing in one meal but over time yes. The reasons why wolves don't live as long as dogs is due to several reasons, some of which you mentioned, but it is the availability of food that is the problem for them rather than the food itself. The only documented case of perforation I have heard of that happened in a sanctuary was said to have occured due to the way the keepers had sawed the bones!

>personally I can't see the sense in feeding the same food each and every day for the dogs entire life

Different species have different requirements. Many herbivores do best on just grass, all day, every day, for their whole lives. It's not wise to start thinking that dogs are like humans.

Yes, but wouldn't those animals naturally eat just grass all day, every day? A wolf would eat a wide variety of animals/birds.

A wolf would eat what it could catch to eat. Presumably in some geographical areas one prey species is more plentiful and therefore their diet will be made up much more of that one?

I have often found that pups start to get fussier/less greedy at this age as their rate of growth is slowing compared to the phenomenal rate previously.

Thanks Brainless.  I'll carry on as I am, maybe cut their food down a little and see how we go.  They definetely wont starve to death!

It may also be that they are teething badly at the back of their mouth and their gums are sore, in which case, whether hungry or not chewing may be painful and so they would be a little less eager to eat.

Kate

Could be, they are particularly teethy at the moment.  Is there any way I can get around that?  Perhaps by mixing in some "softer" food?  i don't want them to go hungry?

Hi Jennyrose79

Like I said, there was a fair bit of discussion! 

And Jas, I really wouldn't say my response was "defensive", just my experience.  It is my choice to feed my dogs a varied and interesting diet, that they eat with relish at every meal.  I have fed complete diets, but time will tell just how wonderful they are.   It is interesting that the medical profession tell us humans to eat as much fresh food as possible, but the complete dog food manufacturers are saying that heavily processed is best.  As I said right at the beginning "each to their own".

Why should it be wrong to defend one's particular feeding method It would be far more suspicious not to defend it :D :D :D I assume that Jas would defend his/hers feeding method ??? :)

Daisy

My feeding method is very simple. A good quality kibble (doesn't matter a hoot which one), fed to appetite in most cases as my breed doesn't tend to be greedy or to put on weight.

I don't know about dogs needing variety but I'm happier offering it. 

I feed my dogs JWB mixed with Natures Menu, with a small quantity of e.g. chicken or fish on top in the morning. 

In the evening I always cook for instance extra potatoes/rice/pasta and veg, which they get in with their meal with whatever meat/chicken or fish we leave or is saved for them.  If I boil eggs I always do extra and that will go in.  Even a little home made soup can be used, it just puts a flavour and smell through it that keeps them happy. 

I started doing this with Rosie about 13 yrs ago and have carried on knowing that it would become what is expected but I am happy to do this.

Ok, i hope this doesn't cause an uproar :-D but.. can you feed your dogs raw eggs?

I heard it was good for their coat??

I feed mine raw eggs, (shell aswell) just put the whole egg into their bowl and they crack it themselves :-D   I only feed probably one egg per dog once a fortnight/month depending on whhat they have been eating.
people who feed a barf diet probably feed them more regularly than this. But i feed a mixed diet to them of raw and commercial.

Just made my first souffle (it went very well) and I have some egg yolks left over.  thought it might be a nice treat for them (and me, I'll have some verry yummy scrambled eggs tomorrow!)  :-D

It's not a good idea to feed too many egg whites. Egg white contains the protein avidin which forms a stable and biologically inactive complex with biotin. The avidin in egg whites will tie up the biotin so it cannot be used by the dog. A few eggs though will do no harm.

Well that works out well!  Seeing as my souffles used all the egg whites for us humans... its left the juicy yolks for them! 

Sorry, I'm banging on about the souffles!  They were so good though!!! 

Good thread on this here: http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=661104;hl=raw%20eggs;hlm=and#pid661104

I wouldnt feed just egg whites on their own,but latest studies have proved  that the yolks have far and enough biotin in them to surpass the binding effect of the avidin in the raw whites and enough to offset the effects of the avidin, providing plenty of available biotin. Cooking destroys the b vitamins and efa's.If it would make you feel safer you could cook the egg whites and leave the yolk raw.

My dogs get the odd raw egg. Not often, just now and again. :)

What a hornets nest this post has stirred up. My girls get Burns complete with a small amount of raw tripe, plus whatever veg we have i always do extra for them they love it. Somedays a tin of pilchards, some cottage cheese or a bit of tuna. They are never fussy and will eat whatever goes in thier dishes even some days just the burns.
When we go on hols and leave them with thier Auntie to look after them she feeds just Burns as it's easier for her and she never has a problem.
They are fit and well, have glossy coats, slim and hard condition (The excersice needs to be right).
A fit active healthy dog will eat whatever it needs to fill it up. Making sure they have variety means they will happily eat anything. After all dogs eat to live not live to eat like us poorly fed humans.
Go with whatever is right for your dogs and don't get hidbound on following a specific diet, not all foods are right for all dogs. If your pups are a bit fed up with the relentless kibble then make it a bit more interesting for them, but don;t start feeding human meals make sure what you give them is good wholsome food not junk. ie no burgers and chips!!!

Well, tried the egg yolks... Daisy loved it and douggie threw up twice in the night... Which was nice...

Guess we'll have to try the next thing... tuna maybe.