Walking my dog in some fields yesterday, my heart was in my mouth when I saw SIX other dogs, as a pack, spriting toward us, in varying degrees of excitement.

When they reached my dog, it was oovious, even though mine did not react, that he did not like being encircled by six dogs, of differing breeds.

Several yards behind, this silly woman, shouting to me, "It's okay, they are friendly, they are friendly".  Yeah, famous last words.

Anyway, one of them, a young staff, seemed to be getting a bit too carried away in his friendliness, and would just not leave my dog alone.  Thankfully, there was no damage done, but when I told this women that with SIX dogs she should either

a)  Have someone with her while walking that number of dogs

b)  Keep them on some sort of lead system

...she looked at me as though I were mad.

I am annoyed, because hers is an incredibly selfish attitude.

She might see her dogs as friendly, but unless she can assure that she has them under sufficient control so that they do not just spring away from her in that way, then she is putting even her own dogs at risk, because if they had did that to my last dog, they would have got a v different reaction from him...

What are your thoughts on this?

My thoughts are that even the most confident dog is likely to be overwhelmed by an onrush of SIX dogs, no matter how friendly. And that, to be honest, it's not the most sensible idea to be allowing six dogs to behave like this.

I had two cavaliers and decided to take them and my friends dog out for a walk talk about pack instinct all dogs were great on there own and the cavs were good together but just adding this one dog all hell broke loose and the three of them chased a petrified dalmation I had an awful job getting them in control on my own not helped by the dalmations owner who thought it was hilariouse his big dog was so scared of two cavs and a cross breed to be honest if I had been the dalmations owner I would have been more than a little annoyed.  Six is way to many and what if your dog had been aggresive it doesn't bear thinking about.

the other day we got out of the car and my dog began sniffing the ground when a big white german sheperd saw her and charged towards her barking a growling at flat out speed. the owner did nothing, i was clapping my hands and yelling  in a loud voice hoping to distract it but it stopped a foot from her and then turned round and ran back to the owner who praised it 'good girl' for coming back. it then did the same thing 2 more times before we moved out of eyeshot. luckily my dog wasnt worried but i was, i felt sure it was hurtling up to attack her and the owner not only didnt call the dog back but didnt even apologise to me or say the dog was harmless. i would think some dogs could be quite afraid and maybe attack it one day. am i wrong in thinking this was plain rude of the owner?

Not at all wrong.

What made it worst, is that I told her to get her dogs under control, and she replied by saying that they WERE under control, and 'just playing'.  You would expect this behaviour of the archetypal 'ned', however this seemed to sound like a reasonably educated and mature women.

"How can you control six dogs like that, off lead?" I asked her, angrily.

"How can you not let your dog off the lead", was her dumbass reply.

She was placing her own dogs at risk, I was pretty sure that Spud would not react, but my last Bully would have ripped at least one of them apart, for that type of thing.

It kinda put me going up that hill now, which is a shame because he likes it there, however, it is quite remote, and if that PACK had turned nasty, then it could have got v ugly, v quickly....

"How can you not let your dog off the lead", was her dumbass reply.

If I let my dog off the lead at any time within half a mile of another dog he would attack it and bite it - then what would the woman's answer be if it was her dog.  These people make me so cross, saying their dogs are "under control" when the ones I come across are definitely NOT under control because they completely ignore their owners to sniff round my dog who just goes completely berserk.  If it had been me in a situation with 6 dogs around me I can't imagine what I would have done.  I try to avoid these scenarios at all cost but inevitably you will come across dogs not on leads.  I take immediate action to go the other way and my dog will bark wildly but some people insist on following you wherever you go regardless.

CG

Cain,  I always say to people who say this "well my dog isn't and it wouldn't be nice if your dog got attacked for being rude and ill-mannered" - or words to that effect.  It's usually followed by "get those bl**dy dogs under control!"

Picture the scene...   returning to the car (son, young Bedlie bitch and self) and I spy an elderly lady walking with two crutches and a large Labx off lead.  My young dog is put on lead as I take no chances until I know dog is safe.  Labx spies my dog and immediately her hackles go up, head down, tail and legs stiff, eyeballing as she comes towards us quickly.  I get between the Labx and mine and the old dear says it's ok, she's friendly :rolleyes:  This while the dog is looking like the most unfriendly dog I've ever seen.  I ended up going in circles as the Labx was determined to get at mine :rolleyes:  no growling, but then they don't always warn before an attack :(   the old dear was most put out that I didn't take her word, but I've seen enough unprovoked dog/dog attacks to be careful especially when the dog is twice the size of mine.   No lead in sight (and she couldn't have used one as she didn't have a free hand) and she didn't even attempt to call the bitch back either :rolleyes:  Waste of time trying to talk to her, she wasn't interested :(

A few weeks ago my mum and I were out walking our dachsies on park land on extending leads, I had my 2 and Mum had hers,we were heading back to the car after a very enjoyable walk when up ahead we saw a woman and 6 dogs of varying sizes and breeds coming onto the park land,not one of them was on a lead,she appearred to have walked from the local houses. We carried on walking,her dogs were doing their business right left and centre and she didn't bother to clear up after them,she was at least 50yds away when the Lab,Boxer and Staffy came up to our dogs,hackles up, I shouted to this woman to call her dogs and she shouted at us "she was sorry for ours as they were on a lead and what an awful life they must have" she did nothing to call the dogs,ours by now are getting frantic and we are trying to walk away but these 3 continue to follow us, it took a few hundred yards before they finally left us alone and the woman continued to walk in the other direction, they didn't go away till she disappeared out of sight. Needless to say we haven't been back there and this spoilt a very nice time we had been having till then.
Just because our dogs are not off lead they are able to run about and explore but we are still under control and I feel happier doing it that way and the dogs don't seem to mind. The only place we let them off lead is behind my Mum's house on the park land there as we know if they get spooked they will run for the gate in her back fence.

Why Oh Why do folk have to spoil things for others?????

Rhona

The answer Rhona, is that some people are just too up their own a*** to care.

The story that you relate is not 1000 miles from that which happened to me.

On reflection, I am starting to think that maybe they were not her dogs, but she was some sort of paid 'dog walker', such was the variety of breeds that she had.

This is why I do support some sort of licence system for all owners, me included, and if you were reported for an incident like mine, you would have points added to that licence, rather like how you would if you were caught speeding in a car.

If they were legal, would anyone find it eased their worry, if they were to carry a Pepper Spray around, as these do not lasting damage, but will work on an attacking dog, or person, for up to 45 mins?

But they're not legal, so there's no point pondering really! ;)

True.

And no one should ever buy one, illegally ;)

Quite right, because if they ever use it they've given their 'assailant' a cast-iron case against them for assault. ;)

A water pistol is good for driving unwanted attention seekers away without causing harm and is legal.

Much better idea :)

I remember years ago, when we were travelling in the dark we stopped off at some road side toilets.  While I was washing my hands at the sink a man walked in. It startled me and I really panicked, screaming out for hubbie who came running.  When I calmed down we could both seen it was a totally harmless old gent that has just wandered into the wrong loo. He was mortified and appologetic but if I had been clutching my pepper spray against eventualities I reckon the poor old fella would have been applogising through a stream of tears, that is if he could get his breath and wasn't suffering a heart condition in which case we would have been doing CPR awaiting the medics.  That is why I believe the law is correct in preventing people arming themselves with anything that can cause serious harm quite apart from the fact weapons can be turned onto the victim.

On the other hand, he may not have turned out to be a harmelss old gent, in which case you would have been thankful that you had something with a ten foot range, that would give you up to 45 mins to escape.

Anyway, I was really referring to them as a means of breaking up a dog fight, or getting an attacking dog of your dog.

:)

I wasn't really in any danger as Hubby had left the car and was standing outside.  That sort of sensible precaution beats arming yourself with dangerous weapons hands down :)  
Doesn't matter if you are carrying it to break up dogs fights you could still end up using it inappropriately when under stressed conditions.  This is why they, and any weapon in fact, are illegal.  The chances of you getting a fair waft of it when spraying a dog would be pretty high too :rolleyes:.   If that happened you might well wish you hadn't used it and definately don't consider it if you suffer from any breathing issues such as asthma or a heart condition or if any other person in the vacinity does or might do because we don't always know we have an underlying problem :)

I appreciate what you are saying, in relation to your incident, however, a thought just struck me.

You say that this 'harmless old gent' somehow 'accidentally' walked into the ladies?

And that once you were alarmed enough to cry out, and husband appears, the old gent is fully apologetic?

Hmm.

I wonder if his reaction would have been the same had you been alone.

Killers usually appear 'nice and friendly or harmless', and don't wear t shirts declaring otherwise, if you get my point.

Anyway, back to the point.

What would you do if your dog was surrounded by SIX dogs, and their owner was yards behind, and seemed unable to recall them properly?

What would you do if the pack had attacked, and you were in the middle of a field, near dusk?

:) You would have had to have seen him to realise how silly I was.  I could have dealt with him single handedly myself!  Anyway that is not the point I had taken the precaution of having Hubbie stand outside otherwise I would not have chosen to use those facilities.  There are lots more sensible things than pepper spray to protect yourself.

>What would you do if your dog was surrounded by SIX dogs, and their owner was yards behind, and seemed unable to recall them properly?

I don't know but as nothing like that has happened to me in 30 years of dog walking I can't see any need to start illegally arming myself just incase. 
Perhaps it has never happened because I do give a little thought as to where and when I am walking?

Are you suggesting that I didn't give thought to when and were I was walking?

If so, you are wrong.

I was the one in full control, the place was a nice area that Spud is entitled to be walked in, without fear of being approached by an entire pack of dogs, and a useless buffoon who was allegedly meant to be in charge of them.

I'm not suggesting you did not give it any thought I am suggesting this is an unusual occurance and not worth illegally arming yourself over particularly as they dogs did not even attack.  What would you have done with pepper spray in this instance of meeting a pack of dogs that have been nothing but be unruly and over friendly and at worst rude?

Not used it, unless one or more of them began biting my dog.

The probabilities of needing it just do not stack against the trouble you would be in the minute you pressed the button even if you don't panic and use it prematurely before a dog has actually attacked.  For a start the owner is rather unlikely to stand well clear particularly if they don't understand what it is you are using.  They are going to be wade in and rescue their dog.  Even if the law was lenient about you using it against a dog in the circumstances once the owner is affected you are up for a personal harm charge as well as carrying an offensive weapon and you better just hope the owner is in good health and it doesn't run to a manslaughter one.  Just not worth it is it.

How could you possibly guarantee that your own dog didn't get affected by it too?

That is a dead cert! and Cain too because they are not going to vacate the area either.

I am not endorsing there gratuitous use, however, I would use ANYTHING if a dog, or several OTL dogs, attacked me, or my dog.

Simple as that.

I know you are not but I don't think you appreciate how easy it is to get it wrong and use it gratuitously in error.  But even the use that you imagine you would find helpful would backfire for the reasons I have given above and get you into more trouble than the carrying of it justifies. 
Surely you can see that once you and the other owner are affected there is going to be little you can do to help the dogs if one is injured you would not be even in a fit state to drive them to the vets.

There is nothing to suggest that either I or the other owner would be effected.

Do you know anything about these sprays, as I have a link that (if permitted to use), would perhaps clear up a few questions that you pose me here...?

I think the obvious problem with that is you say you wouldn't use it until one or more of them start biting your dog. Have you ever seen a dog fight? There is no way you could spray it on the attacking dog without getting your dog if they're tussling about on the ground, spinning in circles or similar. :rolleyes:

edited to say - I didn't read down the post first before replying - was too shocked! But I see that this point has already been very well made :)

Okay, so what would you do then, if not this?

And yes, I have seen a dog attack, and in my example, the spray could have been used with no danger other than the attacking dog being injured.

>the spray could have been used with no danger other than the attacking dog being injured.

I really can't imagine how.   In the video demonstrations I have seen it is a fairly liquid spray, visibly coming out of the can in a, say, 30-40 degree spread.  The less visible particles must be spreading a lot wider than that.
I don't know what I would do.  Probably drag mine back by the tail and ask the other owner to do the same with theirs.  I understand if the back legs are lifted off the ground they do not have the strength in the front legs to pull themselves forward again.  I really don't go around worrying about it too much though as I know it to be a very rare occurance and I don't think we should forget it didn't happen in the event you described either, you just met a woman with an unruly gang, badly behaved and rude admittedly but plenty there to get stuck in if they weren't as aimiable as the woman thought so the care we are taking with where we walk is apparently effective :)

It would have been very easy, because in the instance I witnessed, one dog had effectively clamped his jaws over the smaller dog, immobilising it totally, therefore, it would have been very easy to give the attacker a spray to the eyes, and it would have let go, for sure.

As for taking care were we walk, maybe it is just me, but once again, this somehow alludes to a suggestion that I was not the one taking care.

I was.

I had my dog on a lead.

She had SIX off lead, and by default, was unable to control them, else they would not have sprinted toward us in that manner, ingnoring her calls.

As I say the videos that I have seen show the liquid covering an area that would certainly encompass two dogs heads and probably any human faces that came within a yard or two as it comes out at an angle that increases to 4 or 5 feet within a similar distance.

>this somehow alludes to a suggestion that I was not the one taking care.

No, because you were not attacked.
Badly behaved dogs occured all over the place, I've certainly met a few :), but owners who knowingly, even deliberated walk dogs liable to kick off are much fewer and far between and do seem to occur in areas where you and I would probably not choose to walk. 

Will defense sprays work on dogs?

Oleoresin Capsicum will incapacitate animals. In fact, we manufacturer the Frontiersman Bear Attack Deterrent to protect outdoorsmen from Bear Attacks. The OC used in both SABRE & SABRE Red can incapacitate dogs. In most cases, the act of spraying the animal and the forcefulness of the spray pattern will be enough to cause the animal to turn and run.

Source;

http://www.reasonableforce.com/peppersprayfaqs.html#oc

I don't have any doubts that it works.  Lets hope you can catch your dog again when it turns and runs or do you think you will have time to explain it all to him.

I don't really understand your post.

He did not turn and run, he reacted SUPERB by not reacting.

I had him on lead, she had six OFF lead.

Sort of sounds as if you are defending her...

>will be enough to cause the animal to turn and run.

And quoting that proves what?

It's taken from your quote above and it explains my comment which was not referring to your incident with the unruly dogs at all but pointing out that if you use this spray your can expect all the dogs affected to turn and run in panic after being hit by the spray including your own.  If it is a large dog I doubt a lead would hold it.

No, mine wouldn't, since

a)  I would not be spraying him

b)  He is on a lead, therefore, he would not be running anywhere

I just cannot believe that you really think you can avoid the spray reaching your dog's eyes.  This is extremely potent stuff.  Read your own link they use it to disable bears!  Your dog is likely to be so distressed you might wish he would run off to spare you the sight of him :(
It would appear nothing will convince you that this incident has neither exposed you to a marauding pack that demonstrates how dangerous it is for dogs out there nor that using dangerous weapons is not only illegal but irresponsible so I shall leave you to it and hope not to see your story in the press too soon.

My story DID expose me to a marauding pack.  And it could have got v nasty.  And I don't own a PS, therefore, you are not likely to read about this in any paper, anytime soon.

Btw, how many dogs do you have?

Of course there are the times when the user of the spray has been silly enough to use it while downwind of the intended target and received the full benefit themselves! Such things give a false sense of security.

I think your definition of marauding is a little different to mine :)  The woman said they were friendly and friendly they turned out to be, albeit not controlled.
I have one dog, so don't worry it wasn't me :D

But the fact is that they were NOT friendly, one of them, the staff, was trying to get a hold of my dog's leg, and I do not regard that as friendly, especially since it was uninvited attention.

You described it as friendly in your original post so I have naturally continued under that impression.

>seemed to be getting a bit too carried away in his friendliness, and would just not leave my dog alone.

If the leg grabbing was an invitation to play your dog would have recognised it as such, they often see and exchange messages that we humans would not.  Was he reacting like he thought it was an attack?  I must say I would have thought if a Staffie meant it as an attack you would have all been in no doubt!
Even if it was, pepper spray still looks like a very bad, as well as illegal, solution.  Avoiding the area is a more obvious and sensible one, speaking to the dog warden about it would be another.

This was what I said in my opening post;

Several yards behind, this silly woman, shouting to me, "It's okay, they are friendly, they are friendly".  Yeah, famous last words.

Anyway, one of them, a young staff, seemed to be getting a bit too carried away in his friendliness, and would just not leave my dog alone.

Perhaps I should have placed the word friendly in inverted comma's?

As for avoiding that area, hey, what is wrong with her avoiding the area, or having SIX dogs off the lead at one time, especially as the area eventually leads to a really busy main road?

Is there a by-law in your area limiting the number of dogs a person can have offlead?