Hiya, I'm new here but looking forward to being here. I'm about to breed a litter from my standard schnauzer and have found one stud dog but might need another in reserve I suppose. She'll be in season next month but how do I tell which are her most fertile days and should I aim to have her covered twice?

It would help if you posted what lines and attributes you are looking for and what faults you are looking to improve. :)

Thanks Val, I'm just looking for more of the same really, my bitch is a really good family pet, superb temperament, health, confirmation etc. but in showing terms I understand that her tail is set a little low for perfection, but I don't show her and probably won't at least for the forseeable future so I don't worry about it.

You don't say whether your girl has been eye-tested or not - or whether you have been in touch with the Breed Club - so if you have done both, apologies in advance :)

Cataracts (both hereditary and congenital hereditary forms) and generalised Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA), can occur in the Miniature Schnauzer, and therefore it is important that your girl is eye-tested annually, by a vet registered under the British Veterinary Association/The Kennel Club Eye Scheme  - and of course any dog used at stud should also be tested.  

Hereditary cataract and PRA need annual tests as these both develop later. The former can only be diagnosed from about 6 months so although you can have puppies tested at about 8 weeks, all puppies should be tested again at 12 months, and annually after that.

PRA may not appear until 3 years of age upwards, and all dogs should be tested annually up to the age of 8 years.

Your Breed Club should also have a list of stud dogs who have had these tests.

Regards

Margot


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Hi Lavenderlass

The books tend to say that bitches are most fertile between about days 10 and 14 BUT the bitches don't read the books!  I have known bitches to be mated between days 8 and 24 so there is a lot of variation.  The books also say that the discharge becomes straw like - but I haven't often seen this happen.  You can have her blood tested by your vet to see when is the optimum time to mate her, but I have always used observation of my girls and their behaviour.  If you haven't bred before, I would really advise you to spend some time talking to the breeders of your bitch (hopefully they are knowledgeable and caring) and also the prospective stud dog owner.  If the owner of the stud dog, and the dog himself is not experienced, you may be better advised to either go elsewhere or call in the help of someone experienced.

I usually try to mate my bitches twice, two days apart, but have had a litter of 15 puppies from just one mating.  That was my first litter and cost me thousands of pounds many years ago - it's amazing that I ever bred again.  My bitch had to have a ceaser, we had to hand rear the pups and it was difficult to find the right homes for so many puppies

Breeding dogs is not for the faint hearted.  It can be a wonderful experience, but sadly things can go horribly wrong, and you can end up spending vast amounts in vet's fees (ceaserians are not cheap!) or even worse loosing puppies or your bitch.  Apart from it being the responsible thing to do, in these days of litigation it is only sensible to have your bitch, and the stud dog, screened for any health problems that can affect your breed (sorry, don't know anything about schnauzers myself).  Also, I would not contemplate breeding a litter unless I had several good homes waiting.

If you do decide that you really want to breed your bitch, "The Book of the Bitch" is essential reading.

Best of luck

If you intend to get your puppies docked you will need to join the Council for Docked Breeds asap & arrange for a visit to a vet who docks

You might do well to go along to some championship shows where the breed is classified and talk to established breeders who care about the future of this rather specialised breed. You may find they have a lot of advice to give you!!

Hi ridgielover, what a brilliant answer! that was really useful. I used to know about horses, but as I'm a bit older now and don't want to ride anymore, I've downsized, as they put it! Dogs are just as much fun and it's lovely to have them inside, not outside in a stable. I did take Bella to the vets and ask about breeding her ages ago and he gave her a clean bill of health and said to go on with it. I think she'll enjoy it too, (well, barring disasters) and I did some midwifery many years ago as part of my nursing training, so I'm quite level headed. I didn't know there was such variation about dates, would it work if I  wiped her with a tissue each morning to see what colour her discharge is? Fortunatly the stud dog owner does know what he's doing an has invited me along to meet him, that will help me I'm sure, and I can ask loads of questions then too, but I will ask if she can be covered twice like you do, just in case.

Thanks loads for your help, I'll keep you updated, lavendelass.

Hi please listen to as much advice as you can about breeding im a breeder myself and things can go very very wrong in just over a week ive had some very bad luck having had 2 c sections and losing 1 puppy out of each litter which is very hard but i have been breeding many years and know what to look for if my bitch needs helps  i dont wait and mess around for it to get worse and trust me ive just paid under £1000 for the c sections on my bitchs and if your having a litter just before or after xmas please try getting a waiting list ready i dont normaly have puppies this time of year due to xmas but having 22 people on one of my waiting lists and 19 on my other i feel im pretty safe
everybody knows what there talking about here plese lisen to everything
goodluck i hope all goes well

Lavenderlass,

I trust as well as taking the positive from ridgielover's excellent post, you have also taken on board the comments re. health testing of your bitch and the stud dog?

If so, then good luck and enjoy your puppies!

M.

I will take all your excellent advice, I think I'm so lucky to be able to ask so easily, presumably most of you started before the days of the internet? yes, bella is strong and healthy and the vet confirmed that, she's also emotionally very well balanced and I think will enjoy being a mother as I have. I will be reading loads of books like Book of the Bitch and read lots of old posts here beforehand, but I suppose there's no adequate substitute for yars of experience. But we are in the centre of a country market town and easy for a vet to find in an emergency.

Thank you so much for your help so far, lavenderlass

Hi Lavenderlass

I'm glad that you found my response helpful.  Just as a matter of interest - what health issues are there with Schnauzers?  As I said, I know nothing about them at all.  With Ridgies, anyone responsible hip scores their breeding dogs, and some have started elbow scoring too.  We also have the horrible issue of Dermoid Sinus to deal with. 

If I were you, I most certainly would go to meet the stud dog owner (and most importantly the dog!!) before you go ahead with the mating.  I would want to see him in the flesh and have time to assess his temperament etc.  He will have a very important role to play and you need to be sure he is just what you want.  Being nosey again (!!), was he suggested by the breeders of your bitch? 

In answer to your query - I started way before the days of the internet, I had my first litter in 1987.  Now I feel VERY old!!  I went to lots of shows to find the dog to use, looking at dogs I liked and checking their breeding, and talking to people.  It really paid off - I bred a champion, a Crufts Best of Breed winner in my first litter.  If you haven't been to any shows, it can be a very useful experience.  And if you haven't already done so, you may want to join your breed club?

Best wishes
Carina

Carina, I was reading your post thinking - huh 1987, thats not that long ago to be experienced at breeding!  Doh, then I counted back and realised it was 20 years ago - doesn't time fly. I'm now in total shock that 1987 was nearly 20 years ago 

Are you feeling old now as well, Ali!!
Carina

yes, and trying to convince myself that it's my mind distorting the past -lol.  I was only a child though!!!

Hi Lavendarlass! I found information about the specialist health tests needed by Schnauzers (not just a general check by your GP vet) before they're bred from on the Schnauzer Club website. (Click on the blue words for the link! ;))

Your bitch (and the stud dog too of course!) will need to have certificates showing that they're clear of the conditions listed here.

make sure you have good homes lined up- they have large litters, my first litter was 11 (3 stillborn) and the 2nd litter 8 ( all survived). my bitch came from a litter of 12 so they can have a lot.
ps standard schnauzers are not hip or eye tested- whatever you may hear on this site. check it out with the schnauzer club site.

Although SS are not tested for HD it does seem that the breed does have a problem with it.  Unfortunately in many breeds they are just not tested although I think all large breeds should be tested for HD as it's a well known problem in many and not really realised unless they are hipscored.

Not just large breeds, therre are CKCS, Shelties and Begales with high scores.  To be honest all breeds should be hip scored in my opinion.

I know Brainless and note that CKCS's are hipscored in America.  Actually I do feel that this is the way to go with all breeds as I said before you ahven't a clue that the breed actually has a problem until they are scored.  But to be truthful I wouldn't be surprised if all breeds end up with similar scores!  Let's face it we all know of high scoring dogs that don't suffer and some low scoring dogs who look crippled :d

Well I was looking through the Hound BRS, at the Beagle scores, a breed that has never been one for scoring and there are some worryingly high results in the few animals scored.  I don't think any breed whatever size can be complacent with HD as it is a species wide problem not a breed one specifically.

Even wolves get HD and poor hip scores.

At least 25 standard schnauzers have been hip-scored (not a huge number, but they're quite an unusual breed) but the BMS is a disappointing 23, from a range of 6 to 70. :( No room for complacency, I'm afraid.

Boy and we are worried about our breed!!!!   We have had more scored and our worse score is nearly half of this breeds score   I think that it's about time your breed club started to look seriously into this problem in your breed and ensuring that dogs are scored!

Sorry to contradict you, Sarah1bee - but the club website DOES say that eye-testing is necessary!

Margot

It's only for the miniature I think, doesn't mention any health tests for any other size!  Quite surprising with hip scores so high in so few dogs scored!

on minis yes not standards lokis mum. the club secretary reassured me of this before i bred my dogs

Sorry Sarahb - I do apologise for the error - but imo, it is important that the breed standards are adhered to - we don't don't know whether Lavenderlass has Giant, standard or mini Schnauzer, do we?

She may well have done all the tests necessary - but, if we aren't told, we don'tknow, do we?

Margot

Correction again:  Lavenderlass has a Standard Schnauzer - so obviously, Sarah1bee, you had read the post better than I!!!

But I would still advocate hip testing........

Margot

>I would still advocate hip testing........

Especially considering the 'not great' results from the few that have been tested.

Please read what JG has posted and the correct health issues.  Unfortunately vets are not well up on problems that affect particular breeds, their general check-up of a dog is worthless really, you need to ensure that your dog doesn't carry any of the inherited problems and a general check-up won't show these up.

Hi LavenderLass,

I just wanted to add to what the previous poster's have added.   Your own vet, as much as they will be good, will not be a specialist (Unless you are exceptionally lucky) in inherited eye diseases nor will they have the facilities for testing your dog.  

Regardless of whether you breed one litter or one hundred litters, you are breeding to improve on what you have started with  whether you intend to show or not and health testing has to be one of the biggest considerations when breeding, as well as temperament, type etc.

You will probably pay very little extra for the services of a good producing stud dog than one who is in a pet home and joining a breed club, going along to the breed club's championship show, speaking to lots of exhibitors and breeder's will only further your search for a good dog.  Not all Champions turn out to be good producers and it's well worth sitting down and studying the names behind the winners.   

My first litter was bred from a dog that hadn't really done anything show-wise and my bitch who had won her Stud Book number yet it gave me a Show Champion bitch who was BOB at Crufts in 1987 and another bitch who was a Reserve CC winner and in turn has given me a Sh.Ch daughter and 3 other RCC winners too.