A friend of mine took her bitch for mating and the dog did not perform as he should, so the owner of the stud dog said no problem i will A I her.
When my friend said about the rules of the KC he replyed i have been doing this for 15 years and never once had permission from the KC.
He also said that lots of people in lots of breeds do it as normal practice and never apply , it's been going on for years.
Now i will not mention names but he is a very well known all round judge of all breeds and if he does it surley lots of people do it.

Has anyone here done it? Don't be shy tell the truth.

Peanuts

What is the point?  I have had a bitch difficult to mate as she had her own ideas about her role in the proceedings, but she did get mated and produced two nice litters.  It id require 4 different seasons and a lot of patience.

This is a tr\it I hope will not be passed onto her female offspring, but at least they will still mate as nature itended.  would be awful if along with poor maternal behaviour and routine c sections that many dogs would loose the ability to effect the act of procreation.

the bitch was not difficult to mate she was throwing it at him but he just would not perform, but i did think if the dog is not used to mating and always has it done for him , maybe the dog expects it now.
i knew a dog that came from abroad and he had never mated a bitch , always had it done for him, they told me thats how it is done in many places abroad , seems odd to me.

Peanuts

If the dog's not capable, either physically or mentally, of mating naturally his genes are useless for the breed.

The dog that came in from abroad produced 11 champions in his own country and 4 over here

Peanuts

So? Can they mate naturally, or has the defect been passed down? I'd hate to have a dog from such a breeding. I can see the use of AI if the dog's in Australia or the US or somewhere and has no opportunity to be with the bitch, but not otherwise. It signifies that there's something very, very wrong and the KC are absolutely right to prohibit it.

AI is fairly widespread within the show world from what I have seen from my limited observations.
They are  using fresh,chilled and frozen semen mainly by surgical implant.  

No offence intended, but I suspect your observations are in fact very limited. ;) I've been involved in the showing and breeding scene since 1972 and have never come across any instance of AI. I'm sure it happens though - there are cheats everywhere. :(

For AI to be accepted by the KC it has to be proven that both sire and dam have to have previously produced offspring from natural matings.

I can assure you that frozen semen implants are widespread.

What I meant by "from my limited observations " was that I dont personally involve myself with show dogs,however I have first hand knowledge of which vets are involved and are performing AI.

As you can imagine the field of canine reproduction is a fairly small world

But in the world of greyhounds, sadly some horrible things happen :(

Please remember that lots of people without the experience that you have do come on here, and then, for someone like you, to make such a sweeping statement, does no good whatsoever.    It may go on in the somewhat sordid seedily perceived world of greyhound racing (and there are a few "kennels" around me - so I'm not talking out of the end of my elbow) - but please let's not get this accepted as the Norm.

Margot

Your previous posts confirm that the world of racing-greyhound production is very different to and should not be compared with the world of dog breeding generally. You expressed shock before that KC dogs mate naturally, and gave the impression that using AI to get several hundred litters a year from a single stud dog was actually considered a good thing in the sphere of racing greyhounds! What is acceptable in one is very much not so in the other.

I am not going to become involved in a debate regarding the ethics of greyhound breeding or show dog breeding for thay matter.I am simply stating that it is a fact that many show dog matings are performed by AI.I am asked on a daily basis whether or not I do AI for various breeds.Whether it be right or wrong many show breeders are using AI.

Shouldn't you do the responsible thing then and report them to the KC if so many are using AI? After all the pups should not be elegible for registration.

If you have evidence you should report them to the KC because these cheats are defrauding both the KC and the buyers of the pups. If you haven't evidence then it's gossip which should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I dont know what the rules of the kennel club are as I said I tend not to get involved in the show dogs.It would be useful if you would post up the regulations/rules regarding fresh,chilled and frozen and the rules regarding implants etc.Or even better the name of a contact in the KC because when I speak to them they give me a different reply each time,it seems to depend on who you speak to.

Thanks

The basic information can be found here. As you can clearly see, registration will not normally be granted if the dog is resident in the UK, and both dog and bitch must have each produced at least one natural litter.

The KC rules are quite simple you have to have permission before you carry out the procedure if you wish the puppies from KC registered parents to be eligible for registration. They very very very very will rarely give permission if the dog is domiciled in theUK & never if the either the dog or bitch hasn't produced a litter conceived by the natural means

Right thanks for that .

It appears then that these inseminations are being done in clear contravention of KC rules.

Having spoken to a leading authority only yesterday about AI, the KC have in fact, got the information wrong on their website. AI can be used on a maiden bitch now but this new rule has only come into effect very recently.

Also, the RCVS has said no to surgical AI & the KC have gone along with this. Apparantly it is done using an endoscope but the success rate is very low now compared with surgical.

Having spoken to a leading authority only yesterday about AI, the KC have in fact, got the information wrong on their website. AI can be used on a maiden bitch now but this new rule has only come into effect very recently.

Seems a bit odd -after all, the new KC website is only about a week or so old! Lots of new and updated info on it. Why would they get their own rules wrong?

I spoke to one of my KC contacts yesterday before posting & as they deal with all AI requests you would have thought they would have been upto date. I need to speak to them on an unrelated matter so will advise them they are wrong.They may need to contact you so please PM me with the leading authority details you have so they can contact them & correct the website

>the KC have in fact, got the information wrong on their website.

Surely the KC are the 'leading authority' on their own regulations! Their site has been revamped very recently (within the last fortnight) and a lot of the information updated. If they say AI can only be considered if "both sire and dam have both produced at least one natural litter" then that's what they mean.

After all, WE (outside racing Greyhounds) want to keep our dogs for more than 3 years.

I have nothing to add, I am just shaking my head in disappointment the people concerned should be ashamed. :-(

I think there has been a great deal of misunderstanding involved in this thread. It isn't uncommon for breeders to AI a bitch when the dog keeps getting over excited and 'shoots his bolt' as it were, before he gets in the correct position. In these cases, the semen is collected there and then in a polythene bag and immediately syringed into the bitch. Sometimes this method is also used if inexperienced bitch owners have brought their bitch a day early and she won't quite stand still enough for the dog to mate her naturally. I personally don't have any issues with this. If you've booked a stud dog, waited excitedly for your bitch to come into season and driven hundreds of miles to the dog, then imagine the disappointment on being told that you either have to come back the next day or wait until her next season. This method is not intended to deceive, nor is it used to get several bitches in whelp from a single ejaculation. The semen hasn't been stored or chilled, it's still warm. The process is done there and then and the results are the same as a natural mating. Indeed, some stud dog owners will do a natural mating, then an AI mating a couple of hours later just to make sure, particularly if the first mating either didn't result in a tie, or only resulted in a very short tie. Before you all start screaming that if the dog and bitch don't tie then the stud dog cannot mate naturally, I would like to point out that most slip matings are caused becaused the bitch has been presented to the dog a day early and she doesn't 'hold' him when he is inside her.

This is news to me & I do know a fair few stud dog owners in the show world & had a very popular GSD stud who never needed this type of help-neither did my other two stud dogs-none of them ever had a bitch miss

There is a skill in handling a stud dog it's not just a case of letting them get on with it nor resorting to this rather Heath Robinson method

Travelling 100's of miles try 1000's with people taking GSD bitches to Germany to use the studs there & none of my friends who have done this have had to resort to unnatural methods

I agree absolutely with what MM has said, it's all down to the skill of the stud dog handler. Your dog should not be allowed to "get over excited and shoot his bolt". A good stud dog handler will know what help their dog requires and will know when he is not hitting the spot and in danger of getting over excited and simply pull him back for a few moments. With my dogs, I was always kneeling beside them to guide them in if required, or to hold them in until a tie is acheived. Sometimes - particularly if the bitch was a little on the tall side or keeps twisting away at the vital moment I would have to just take their collars and take them a few steps away for a moment - you wouldn't just leave your dog rubbing up and down on the bitchs back, leg whatever. After a minute or two away they are much keener and tend to 'get there' right away. Done properly there is no need for AI imo.

I second all of this MM this, and in my breed it's now quite common for bitches to be taken abroad for mating -all natural. And yes I know of some that have missed, but all it means is you have further to travel back next season...... With the genepool so small I know I may very well have to go abroad for my next litter, unless something nice is imported in the meantime (it will be 2½-3 years before I have another litter.)

>the semen is collected there and then in a polythene bag and immediately syringed into the bitch

That's not a natural mating, Saxon, and so contravenes KC regulations. The resulting puppies shouldn't be registered. What you describe is extremely unprofessional, and a good handler would have no need to resort to such underhand tactics.

Given the right timing, even a maiden bitch and unproved dog (with very bad hips) can tie successfully on their own, with no help from anyone :rolleyes:

(And before anyone starts up, this was NOT a planned mating by us .....the dogs might have had other ideas - but Freya immediately had the morning after injections (with no ill effects so far (35 days later).   Thor, on the other hand, is suffering with his hip severely.

Margot

I agree Margot of course dogs can tie on their own and will do so out in the street or as in your case when you don't want them to. It's not ideal though, and of course I know this isn't your case, but just to make the point for other people reading it :) A planned mating should be supervised and it makes sense to help too rather than stand around for hours waiting for things to happen naturally, with the dog getting over excitited and the bitch fed up.