3 years ago I purchased a Chocolate male Lab from a breeder that was advertised on a breeders website, I dont recall which site.  Anyway, I travelled to collect my puppy, I live in Tyne and Wear.  Upon first seeing the puppy I could see that he wasnt what i knew as a Chocolate Lab but he wasnt Black.  The breeder said that he was a dark Chocolate.  His mother was Golden and his father Black.  I bought my puppy for £350 and in return recieved all his pedigree papers etc.  Now, before he was 1 year old, I discovered that he had stiff joints, not hip or elbow displaysia but the vet said he had a "mouse" floating in his joints.  An operation was suggested however I declined.  He is on 2 Glucosamine tablets and cod liver oil per day and seems to be doing the trick.  He does crack and does get joint stiffness after long walks, running around, cold weather or just lying around, he is in no pain.  At the age of 2 years, he was diagnosed as being epileptic and has fits approx every 6 months.  At the age of 3 years, he has been diagnosed as having a heart murmour.  Whenever he gets excited or on hot days, he slows down considerably and it is like taking a 15 year old dog for a walk.  He walks slowly, keeps stopping for a rest and sometimes seems to get dizzy and staggers like a drunk.  All in all he is not a healthy boy, although happy, mischevious, boystress and very dominant!!  My question is this.  Has all of his ailments been bred into him and if so, can I take any action against the breeder and if so... what?? 

I look forward to any replies. 

In the three years you have owned your dog, have you had any dealings at all with the breeder?   Such as informing them of his condition(s) ?

Unfortunatly not.  I did contact the breeder on one occasion who just said that her dogs were fine and has never had any problems but to keep her updated. I never did keep her updated as I couldnt see the point becuase in my mind it was clear that she wouldnt do anything about it, or rather couldnt do anything about it.:rolleyes:

To be blunt you got what you paid for.   A well bred labrador even 3 years ago would cost more than £350 this alone would ring bells with me.  When you say you got KC paperwork did you get hips and elbow results etc.

You probably don't stand much hope. Labradors are prone to hip problems hence the reason they are scored. Most good breeders do this.

I would love the dog and take it as one very valuable lesson. Unless of course you have suberb counsel who think they can win your case.

All and all , even if something could be proved , you gain very little sadly.

I do think that poor breeders should be brought before a court though.

sounds as if his 'Stiff joints' is in fact OCD and really can only be cured by an operation to remove the piece of floating bone - I'm afraid that I agree with the others on this - it just underlines the importance of going to a reputable breeder - yes their pups are more expensive but you have to live with the results for many many years.

Good luck with your lad

Yvonne

Being an inexperienced pedigree owner having only kept mongrels in the past, I thought £350 was the going rate!!  My research revealed the most expensive being £500 and others the £350 to £450 mark.  I dont intend to take any action aginst the breeder, I was just curious as to wether I could.  Yes when I paid my money I got a headed receipt, his family history, his parents hip and elbow scores and documentation for the kennel club.  I will dig out his pedigree paperwork and put them on this link.  Maybe his family history and the breeders name may ring alrm bells with you!:rolleyes:

What were the hip and elbow scores of the parents?

[ttBeing an inexperienced pedigree owner having only kept mongrels in the past, I thought £350 was the going rate!!  My research revealed the most expensive being £500 and others the £350 to £450 mark] What research did you do? just what you are saying sounds like very limited. It is hard to be blunt with a new buyer but really the proof is in the pudding sadly.

Sadly you are not alone a lot of people do the same  limited search and buy from the wrong people. 

I my own breed I see it everyday.

Fingers crossed you get his condition under control. Do you have him insured?

A 'floating mouse' is a symptom of OCD. All of his conditions can happen randomly, and it could be you're just unfortunate that he has so many. The colour you describe him as actually sounds correct - there are commonly a lot of weak, wishy-washy pale chocolate labs with pale eyes rather than the correct dark pigmentation! ;)

I very much doubt you could take any action against the breeder; I assume you've kept him/her up to date with his conditions?

No I havent kept the breeder up to date as I didnt think she would or could do anything about my situation.  Money wasnt the issue when I bought him, I just thouight the breeders who were charging £500 were just being greedy!  Being an inexperienced pedigree owner, my other dogs were mongrels you see!  His colour is very odd though.  He definatly isnt black, but his eyes are brown, his nose, and paws are a dark grey colour.  His coat is very dark almost silver like however you can see the dark brown hairs in his coat, just like the colour of a wild rabbit or Hare, if that makes sense!?  In the sunlight the brown speaks for itself, he has a lovely brown cast but he certainly isnt all chocolate.  I was told he was Bourneville!!

This is going to sound harsh and I apologise in advance but ...if you had been aware that there was homework that you could have done about Labs before buying,  you would have been armed with the knowledge  that Bournville isn't a colour.

You would have known to ask about health tests done on the dam and sire, you would have known what the average price for a Lab pup was ..etc etc

I empathise with you but this is how a lot of people learn :(

I would guarantee that you have no comeback to the breeder whatsoever ....it is a case of buyer beware unfortunately and, after 3 years there is no way that any seller of anything will accept responsibility for the item (whether it be a washing machine or a puppy)

Sorry :(

Thanks for your reply.  I am in now way disheartened about my Murphy.  The ironic thing about it is that I was adamant that I did not want any other colour than Chocolate.  I could have bought a Black, Golden or Fox Lab locally but I had to have a Chocolate so I travelled , (I live in Tyne and Wear), I travelled all that way and ended up with a silvery wild rabbit coloured Lab!!  He is unique though and I often recieve comments on how pretty he is!!  He looks like a teddy bear!

Mod Edited : pm me if you want to know why :)

It's good news that you're pleased with your Murphy anyway! Just for the record, there are only three colours of labrador; Black, Yellow (ranging from cream to fox red) and Chocolate (which should be a smooth dark brown). :)

However there can be many varieties of mismarks, some of which you can see here. Makes for interesting viewing! :)

That is a very interesting site. I didn't know about all those mismarks, so I've learned something today :D

your site is really fab.  The pictures are amazing and the dogs look gorgeous.  Very interesting.

Not my site, I'm afraid, just one I found on the net and bookmarked because, as you say, it's really interesting. :)

Hi Karan,

For the benefit of other readers he isn't unique.

Strange colour and teddy bear tendancies are seen in numerous poorly bred dogs and crosses which can be found in an town in the UK..

Love him for what he is but trust us when we say it will be a valuable lesson.

Buyer feedback is the only way that breeders get to know about problems in their breeding. ;) If nobody keeps them informed, then they're telling the truth when they say that they don't know of anything!

Unfortunately I have to agree with the others, and the fact is that even if you bought your pup from a reputable breeder with fantastically healthy dogs and all health checks up to par, there could always be a pup in the litter which has problems.  You are just much, much more likely to get a healthy pup with good parentage. And it is a true fact, that you do get what you pay for. Problems with pups do not show for many months/years.

We all learn as we go along, I'm sorry that your dog has so many problems, to be honest if I were the breeder I would feel so upset I would offer to do something, but that is out of good morals no legal obligations.

If you ever get another pup along the way, this time you will know everything you should, and all about the required health test etc. but alas you are not alone, this happens to many people.

Certainly not having 'a go' at you and not for one minute suggesting that you haven't done everything correctly.  Some of the problems can be caused by the owners over exercising puppies when too young also keeping puppies overweight thinking that it is correct to have a roly poly puppy but together with over exercising this sometimes causes problems.  However, a good breeder should sent you away with all that information to hand in the puppy pack. However the other problems you are experiencing may be problems with the genetics but may just be a fluke that you have ended up with all of them in one puppy.  On the other hand if I had bred the puppy I would at least want to know in case of future breeding plans etc. Colourwise it is correct there is no such colour as Bourneville but a good dark chocolate is always strived for as some become very milky.

Would love to see a picture of silver teddy bear Murphy, he sounds so pretty!

There are such things as silver labs.
They can just pop up in ay litter as I have seen one recently,who's parents were yellow and chocolate.

http://www.silverlabs.com/

Fantastic!!  Yes my Murphy looks like the picture of "jackie" a Charcoal Lab, although you can see a lot of what I call "wild rabbit" or  "hare" colour in amongst his coat.  Great site.

It does sound as though health tests were carried out on the parents, would be interested to know the scores which if they were health tested they'll be on your dogs papers.

I sold a dog that ended up having a number of problems, which no other dog had had before, we later found out that it was due to my house being broken into when the mother was 5 weeks pregnant and the pup must have suffered damage whilst in the mother although this wasn't noticeable for quite a while and not in the 7 weeks that I had her.  Won't go into it but the least that we know is that the mother scaled a 7 foot garage and fell off it. The owners kept in touch and kept me up-to-date etc. with her prognosis.  i did offer to take her bakc give them the money etc. but all in all they were happy with her.  She unfortunately in the end did have to be put down so they were given a free puppy who thankfully is an adult now and is fit and well.

I would get in touch with your dogs breeder because if you don't she's not going to know about the problems and who knows another dog could be having similar problems and she quite rightly would just say that none of her other lines have had it if people don't advise her.

I love the photo of the black & tan Lab - I bet the owner finds it impossible to convince people he isn't a Dobie cross!

Unfortunatly I havent mastered the art of uploading pics yet!!  However if you go to Waffys post and clink on the Silver Labs website link, my Murphy is very very much like the pic of "jackie" the charcoal lab.  Although Murphy has distinct chocolate hair amongst his coat of many colours!!

If you have a look at Waffys reply and go the the Silver lab website link, my Murphy is very similar to the pic of "jackie" although Murphy has distinct brown hair amongst his coat of many coulours!!

Hi Karen, you asked on the first message of this thread, can I take legal action against the breeder for the health conditions that my puppy has sufered in the past three years? There seems to be by most people that have replied a blanket no to that question. I do not know how they can answer with a no without full knowledge of the status of the seller of the puppy.  If the breeder was a licensed breeder then of course you could take action against the breeder for selling a faulty puppy under the Sale of Goods Act. OCD is hereditary, epilepsy sometimes has a hereditary component and can be traced back into lines and if the puppy was advertised as a chocolate labrador and the colour was not true then the puppy was misdescribed.

Under these circumstances and if as I said before the breeder/seller is licensed or can be proven as operating a business by frequently advertising litters o puppies for sale then anyone who purchases a puppy that is faulty can under consumer law seek redress through the Small Claims Court prceedure. The samepplies if a puppy is purchased from a pet shop.
A puppy is considered no different in the eyes of consumer law from purchasing a faulty washing machine or car.

A puppy is considered no different in the eyes of consumer law from purchasing a faulty washing machine or car.

That is 100% correct but like a washing machine a court will not instruct a refund or compensation 3 years after the purchase date. Especially as the buyer hasn't complained at all in the first 3 years. THIS is a fundamental thing.  Further more she paid £350 for a breed that at that time for a reasonably breed one would have been £500. This is another thing fundamental to it.

If you bought a TV at £3000 you would have more redress that one out of Asda that was £200.

Buyers have a responsibility also and a court would acknowledge this.

I know you didn't direct your post at everyone but mine post clearly doesn't say she cannot take legal action , my post says basically she can if she has good counsel but she is probably wasting her time.  A small claims action is a long process also one I wouldn't recommend unless she had everything in place and good supporting evidence. If this was the case most of us would have encouraged it..

She clearly in her first post acknowledges that she thought the colour was wrong when she viewed the pups.  That wouldn't got down well in court !!!

The poster also didnt' say the breeder was licenced as this is also an important factor in it.

Anyway I am satisfied without any doubt in this particular case the poster is snookered. If she had done it at 12 months well that would have been a different post with totally different answers. :-)

I strongly believe that some breeders should be brought before a court BUT a civil only deals with compensation. I would like to see them brought criminally to court.

Hi, as I was not certain of the current time facture that is why I suggested that Karen contacted Trading Standards for advice.

The cost of the puppy has not bearing at all on whether a purchaser can pursue a claim, a person can pay £500, £600 for a puppy sometimes from a pet shop without any useful paperwork the price would not determine in this situation that it was better than one purchased for less as most puppies sold in pet shops originate from puppy farms or are commercially bred for the trade.  So, it cannot be said that as Karen paid £350 for her puppy she would have less chance of being sucessful in her claim than if she had paid £450 from Mrs B furtherdown the road. The puppy was faulty it has nothing to do with how much it cost as Karen would be only asking for reimbursement of the cost that she paid , if as I said the seller was trade.

I agree that the time factor would be against Karen in this instant but I continued answering in general terms thinkng it may be useful to anyone else who may find themselves in a similar situation after purchasing a puppy.

  

Hi Pat,

The cost of the puppy has not bearing at all on whether a purchaser can pursue a claim, a person can pay £500, £600 for a puppy sometimes from a pet shop without any useful

I am sorry to differ but what you have said  is 100% incorrect. In fact you have contradicted yourself in your post I think...

The cost is very very much fundamental in a claim, The cost doesn't say whether she can make a claim or not and my post again doesn't say this BUT the cost is fundamental in whether it is worthwhile and is she likely to gain anything more than a load of stress.  The civil court is for cost reinbursment and/or compensation. The cost /price of something is tied to the length something is owned.  You have already said yourself and puppy is bought under the sale of good act which I draw to your attention.  The quality of something and how good it should be and how long it should last is very much tied to the price. Rightly or wrongly and may not be my opinion but it is true. That includes puppy buying.

If you bought a £700 puppy and all went wrong it would perhaps be more worthwhile going to court. The small claims court is a nightmare. People think because it costs £35 ( last time I was involved in it) it is worth while but you must prepare document after document  and you generally cannot recoup legal fees if you so choose to seek counsel.

Again I use the example of a TV if you bought one from ASDA at £200 and it blew up at 2 years old you would gain nothing as that is all it is probably expected to live. If you paid £4000 for a TV and it blew up at 2 years old you would be successful in not only your claim but in the amount you would be compensated because buying a £4000 TV you would have every right to expect it to last more than 2 years.

When I was a student I sat in the small claims court every Friday for 3 years solid boy was it entertaining what people dragged into court only to come out £100 richer but with a head of grey hair..

Hi Karen, you asked on the first message of this thread, can I take legal action against the breeder for the health conditions that my puppy has sufered in the past three years? There seems to be by most people that have replied a blanket 'no' to that question. I do not know how they can answer with a 'no' without full knowledge of the status of the seller of the puppy.  If the breeder was a licensed breeder then of course you could take action against the breeder for selling a faulty puppy under the Sale of Goods Act. OCD is hereditary, epilepsy sometimes has a hereditary component and can be traced back into lines and if the puppy was advertised as a chocolate labrador and the colour was not true then the puppy was also misdescribed.

Under these circumstances and if as I said before the breeder/seller is licensed or can be proven as operating a business by frequently advertising litters of puppies for sale then anyone who purchases a puppy that is 'faulty' can under consumer law seek redress through the Small Claims Court proceedure. The same applies if a puppy is purchased from a pet shop.

A puppy is considered no different in the eyes of consumer law from purchasing a faulty washing machine or car. If however the breeder/ seller can really be described as a private breeder less than 5 litters in  one year, then of course it is a case of 'buyer beware'.

If not and the seller was trade then I suggest you contact Trading Standards for advise on your position, due to the time that has elapsed since purchase, other than that I would consider that you would have a case against the breeder.  

Pat, you say that "OCD is hereditary". In the article linked in a previous post it states:

>The cause of osteochondrosis is unknown, but because the disease is primarily seen in large and giant breed dogs, a genetic component is suspected. Other factors, such as a high calorie diet, and diets that promote rapid growth, are also thought to be significant.

This makes it clear that although there is believed to be a genetic element to the condition there are other external factors that can also play a part, therefore there is a significant element of doubt that this is solely caused by breeder negligence. The three years that the dog has been with the new owner could be a factor in the condition.

Exactly JG. Can a court of law decide one way or another based on what may have caused it.

The other thing is if the dog lives to the average age what has the buyer lost. ?? 

I will dig out Murphys paperwork and post on site. However, I do have his registration number, his mam and dads registration numbers too and their kennel names if that helps??  I will find out the breeders number and the parents hip scores and post them on ths site tomorrow.  Like I have said on my previous threads, I got Murphy purely for a pet.  He was never intended for showing, breeding or as a working dog so it really matters not to me what colour he is, I was just curious as if there was anything in place to contact breeders in cases like mine.  I really dont intend on hounding out the breeder!!

Best not to post registration numbers on a public site: there are unscrupulous people out there who can make illegal use of them. Also don't post the breeder's number (I assume you mean phone number?) without permission. Parents' hipscores are fine posted though.

To clarify, the breeder could register his pups as being black, yellow, chocolate (liver) or 'non standard'. He may have genuinely thought Murphy was chocolate - after all, many puppy producers would charge you an arm and a leg for a non-standard colour like Murphy, telling you it was 'rare'.

Karan - were you given advice by the breeding on how to rear him?   Were you advised as to how much exercise he should have as a puppy?  Or on jumping/climbing etc?

I'm interested in how many breeders do advise on such things.   I know that most of us on this site do, but I'm just not sure how many other breeders do as a matter of course!

Margot