Sorry, my second post in a few weeks that may look like it's having a pop, but it's for discussion not to slate the dog.

On the front of this week's DW - the longcoat Chihuahua Ch. Bramerita Naughty But Nice has broken the record to become Britain's top CC winner of all time by winning 90 CCs. From what I can see, they have been won over a six year period.

Discuss ...

For my part, I would imagine this must have had a very negative effect on the breed. How very frustrating for anyone else showing a quality L/C chi bitch over that period of time. I would be interested to know how many other female Chis have been made up over this period. Seems a little unnecessary to me.

What does everyone else think?

M.

I think it must be very difficult to withdraw a young(ish) winning dog when a record is within sight.   That said, individual breed records are one thing but IMO there can be little pleasure in chasing anything and everything on the go - even if the dog is a "born to show" fool. 

It does smack of greed, ego, selfishness etc of the owner but unless someone has been at similarly dizzy heights it's a difficult one to call.  Were this the only dog or one of a very small number owned by the individual, then it's arguably unfair to expect the owner to retire the high achiever .....

I sincerely doubt that the same name appearing in the catalogue show after show, year after year has been welcomed by exhibitors in the breed - certainly with the same sex - but if the OB classes have been well filled throughout her reign then presumably there are those who are willing to challenge her.  OTOH if it has cost entries in the classes, (even interest in the breed as a whole) and, more frustratingly, bitches of high merit from gaining their crowns then I don't personally feel it will have done the breed or it's enthusiasts any favours at all.

Of course had the previous record not sat at 89 - presumably she would have been shown significantly less anyway :)

How many were from the same judge?    Personally, I feel that unless a dog can produce itself on in future generations, umpteen CC's are worthless.  What's the use of 90 CC's and it was a rubbish brood or stud?  I measure an animal's 'greatness' in being able to give the breed something in the future. After all it only takes 3 to win a title so what are the other 87 for?   To use as wallpaper or to cover the car windows with Pedigree stickers?

Three were duplicates - all at Crufts.  She was never bred from.

Yes, I can accept that it's difficult to know what one would do personally, having never been in the position. The owner has 22 other Chis. The bitch in question wasn't bred from, as it was thought she was a little small for safety.

Reading further, the owner does thank the breed community for their support once the record was in sight.

89 for the American Cocker previous record holder, as you say. I have to say, hadn't ever quite clocked that the CC counts were that high, and I'm amazed.

M.

87 different judges in 6 years??? Yet so many breeds have the same few year in year out!

Good point Fillis!

M.

How can a dog considered too small to breed from be a good example worthy of 90 CC's???

I always feel that there should be a Champion class like in other countries. Or more titles should be added, like we have in cats. In cats with a Champion you have the choice of whether you enter it in open or not, and personally I normally do NOT. Those Champion cats not entered in open do not compete for the CC but they DO compete for BOB. We also have Grand Champion and Imperial Champion and Uk Grand Champion -and Supreme Champion which is only availale at the Supreme show, the equivalent to Crufts.

(Oh drat I've just broken a tooth as I'm sitting here typing!! )

to the tooth!

Plus the Premier titles of course, for neuters.

M.

Daft question from a showing virgin - why not just not stop giving CC's to Champions when they reach that status. The dogs could still be placed - but is there any point in getting more and more CC's - does it actually mean anything? Once its a Champ - its a champ?!

There are regular calls for this Carla, in the form of a Champions class where they can still compete for Best of Breed (and therefore still take part in the Group/Best In Show competition). Whether it will ever come about is beyond my ken.

M.

I actually have very set ideas on this (I feel a rant coming on!!) and I do feel that we should NEVER have a champions class in this country.  Why should we allow inferior dogs to get made up? If you can't beat the CC winner then you haven't got the best dog there so why should you get a CC?  British dogs are some of the best show dogs in the world and this is mainly due to the fact that we can't make up "easy" champions as you can in the US and on the continent.  Some of the Champion dogs overseas wouldn't get a lookin in this country.  When this discussion comes up I always say "if you want to beat a top winner then show a better dog".  It really is as simple as that.  Anyone can make up a champion if they have a dog worthy of it.

I have a multiple CC and group winning bitch and I was accused (by two bitter people in the breed) of being greedy by bringing her out all the time and winning CC after CC,  but she was my only bitch of that breed I could show!  What was I supposed to do?  Leave her at home and watch inferior dogs get a CC purely to make their owners happy?  Then they go and breed from it because it's a "Champion" and (in the majority of cases) think they've got something special on the end of the lead when in fact it would have only got it's title due to lack of quality competition.  Then there's the plus side of actually beating the top winner! That really is special.

People are always saying they go to shows purely to have fun and socialise and how it doesn't matter if they don't win - so why do people complain about other dogs winning too much?  Can't have it both ways...

Would any of you really want a second rate champion?  I certainly wouldn't.

Debs

But if a dog with multiple cc's is entered in a class with say one other real contender... isn't the judge more likely to stick with the champion on the basis of hedging their bets? Fairly or unfairly?

I'm not sure which side of the fence I'm on re. Champion classes - except to say that inferior champions will only be made up by inferior judges. If CCs were withheld where there is lack of quality, this wouldn't be an issue. Again, we have something to learn from the cat showing world here.

M.

Well said Debs, I strongly agree with everything you've just said. Out of curiousity I had a quick look at long coat chi results in fosse and higham for this year only -  6 other bitches have won CCs, two of them champions so obviously the answer to the original post it Yes you can make a bitch up and win a cc even when such a good bitch is being campaigned :)

I feel the same way. To win a CC that dog must be, in the judge's opinion, the best dog there - not just the best of the ones it's allowed to compete against.

I know nothing about showing but have to agree that the best dog should win regardless of how many times it has won before. It happens all the time in  sport :D

> To win a CC that dog must be, in the judge's opinion, the best dog there

Actually, just for the discussion point ;) that is NOT what is required to win a CC. The CC should be awarded to a dog that is in the judge's opinion 'of such outstanding merit as to be worthy of the title Champion'. Who's to say whether there will be 1, 2, 10 or none of those present in any showing entry.

M.

But if there's only one CC to give (to a dog, and one to a bitch) then it's got to go to the best one, IMO, regardless of how many, if any, the dog's won previously. :)

That's not what the wording says. :D Best of Breed undoubtedly has to go to the best one there, and must be declared even if all entries are of dubious quality. The CC should not automatically be given.

M.

But if there's no dog worthy (in the judge's opinion) of holding the title of champion in the 'best of the rest' (ie non-champions), why shouldn't those dogs who at least 3 judges have considered fulfil the criteria be given the chance to compete for it? After all, they're not denying it to any of the others if the judge was going to withhold it.

I agree JG.  Why should a judge have to go through witholding a CC when there's a dog there worthy of it? Just because it's a champion already why shouldn't it win another CC?  Judges do not withold CCs lightly (I know how it feels as I did it).  It's a very disheartening thing to have to do.  To think that, out of a representative entry, there's not one dog there that's worthy of the title of Champion brings about a state of dispair for the breed.

I'm not picking on any one in particular but it seems it's always the ones who desparately want to make a dog up but haven't got the dog to do it with that complain.  I've never yet heard anyone complain who've had a number of champions and win CCs regularly - regardless of whether there's a big winner that's on a roll or not. 

Debs

I actually have very set ideas on this (I feel a rant coming on!!) and I do feel that we should NEVER have a champions class in this country.  Why should we allow inferior dogs to get made up? If you can't beat the CC winner then you haven't got the best dog there so why should you get a CC?

If judges weren't so scared of withholding that would not apply. :)

If the dog's good enough to beat current champions (who all have off-days, etc) then it should be given the opportunity. To win a title having never competed against a champion is pretty poor, really; sort of 'best of the rest'. And no, I haven't campaigned a dog to its title, and wouldn't want to miss the chance of the thrill of beating champions! ;)

It's very difficult to have this conversation without sounding as if you've been eating sour grapes.

In an ideal world of straightforward judging, I am absolutely of the opinion that there should NOT be a champions class and that to win a CC a dog should take on all comers - so, if asked for an opinion, I would say (and have often argued) that champions should continue to compete for the CC. Unfortunately, we do not always live in an ideal world.

M.

I agree to win a CC the dog should take on everything else- Champions etc included.  I also agree CC's should be withheld more!  To be honest though from a personal opinion I *think* that unless a dog can produce itself generations down the line, then to me personally it doesn't matter how many CC's the dog has- it will be of no use to the breed. 

Stacey x 

To be honest though from a personal opinion I *think* that unless a dog can produce itself generations down the line, then to me personally it doesn't matter how many CC's the dog has- it will be of no use to the breed.

What if you have no interest in breeding whatsoever but want to show your dog?  If it turns out to be a huge winner does that mean it's useless unless it's bred from?  If you go deeper, you might find that other exhibitors,  to get past that particular dog, have to breed better animals - which would surely be good for a breed.

Debs

The dog that does well but is never bred from is a great advertisement for its breeder and bloodline. Hopefully it wouldn't be the only 'star' from a mediocre line. :)

I'd rather see a few winners come from each litter, maybe no high flyers but a Champion/CC winner and a RCC winner or two, to me that speaks more about consistent quality than the odd fluke who wins umpteen bits of green card and the owner/breeder never has another one like that again.

I'm probably looking at it from the cat person's view, where all fully recognised breeds always have CCs at all champ.shows, and a breed isn't necessarily just a BREED either but can be a colour within a breed. Eg. I have a LilacCream Persian Champion who was made up without ever beating another cat -becase there WERE no other LilacCreams about. (Very rare colour and also sex linked.)The way we see it in cats is that the cat must NOT be judged against the other cats in the class as such, but against the breed standard, and therefore it shouldn't matter if there are 1 or 20 in the class. Of course cat judges withhold so frequently you KNOW with 100% certainty if you get a CC it is well deserved.

In certain breeds of cat is is very much seen as bad sportmanship to show a Champion in open, in other breeds it is done. But as you always compete for BOB I see no need to go in open. After all, NO inferior animal should be made up if the judges are any good, and it is perfectly possible to have an animal which is good enough to be a champion but which may not be quite AS good as the current top winner -or even may not be the current fashion. It doesn't follow that all the others will be inferior Champions -and it will also be unfair according to what is shown. You could then have a period of say 5 years or more with no new Champions made up in the sex, yet when the current winner is retired animals that were not as good as ones even placed 2nd to the previous top winner may be made up due to lack of competition AT THE MOMENT IN TIME. So the quality of Champion would depend on when it was shown -not right. :)

With all due respect showing cats is different than showing dogs.  Of course the cat has to have a showing temperament but I'd say it's not as important as when a dog is in the ring showing it's socks off.  No dog is going a be a big winner if it stands there like a lump of lard.  Then you have movement - this doesn't come into it with cats.  Big winners can have their off days showing and moving and that's where another dog can get the nod.

The way we see it in cats is that the cat must NOT be judged against the other cats in the class as such, but against the breed standard

This is exactly how it is in dogs too - or should be.  You HAVE to judge each dog against the standard and not against it's rivals.  The only time personal preference comes into it is if you have two or more equally good dogs and you can't decide between them - then it all comes down to performance on the day and what you personally prefer.

Debs

>So the quality of Champion would depend on when it was shown -not right.

That would probably be true if all judges had the same interpretation of the standard, all dogs attended all shows and no dog ever had an off-day. I've never been to a cat show, but a friend tells me that the cats don't have to 'show themselves off' at all - they're just picked up and examined with the owners all absent, and lameness on the day, for example, is immaterial. But judges are different no two will rate the same animal exactly the same as each other. That's what keeps the excitement up! :)

Yes that's a good point JG. :)

A friend of mine(not sadly deceased)judged this bitch & did not give her the CC Not out of spite but for a fault as compared to the breed standard that so many judges overlook because of her being such a showgirl & yes my friend was a Chihuahua specialist not an all rounder

Sorry MM, couldn't resisit this :D

A friend of mine(not sadly deceased)

?? :)

Should have been now sadly deceased of course :(

I'm not being funny but is it really worth making a dog a champion if it's never going to be used?  Especialy if it's a bitch which must be small for it's breed standard.

Surely the idea of making dogs champions is for them to be used and to hopefully enable future generations to improve?  Or am i being stupid

Unfortunately in my previous breed Pomeranians many bitches that were made up were way too small to breed from and in my eyes it was silly for them to be made up.

It shows the quality of the bloodline behind the animal.

But is it quality if the dogs are producing dogs that are too small to be bred from? 

Are they within the standard? If they are, but are too small to be bred from, the standard needs to be changed. If they aren't, they shouldn't be made up anyway.

And surely this bitch must be within the breed standard for height to have won?  Surely the whole point of a breed standard is to judge to it and if she is so correct then she should be big enough to be bred from?

In another breed I am interested in but don't own, the breed record holder had 52 CC's (This has since been overtaken) but he in turn sired 26 title holders - to me that is a 'great' dog.   He won because he was a quality dog but his qualities in turn, passed through to his progeny.

Hi there,

Been watching this debate with interest so will try and STEP carefully! (even after a couple glassses of wine LOl!) Would LOVE our breed to have CC`s even one at a show! I just think we have been held back far to long, I think maybe due to certain "circumstances" IMO. If we had CC`s judges would "think" more and not take us as a joke (or am I being a little hard?) . Our entries are above many given CC`s.

Even with "Champion" classes in europe, several of our breed have been given group placings abroad including my own! So is it not about time we were taken seriously in the UK? I am sure this would help promote our breed.

I have two Champions I have made up abroad and I am VERY proud of them both. :-)

Pam

Some of us are even further down than yourselves :d  We have been in this country for almost 14 years now and even though I believe a request to come off the import register was sent 9 months ago I believe a meeting still hasn't been held

Find it very strange when other breeds have only had about a maximum of three ever being shown in their breed and they were off the import register in no time.

By winning 90 CC's, it would mean another 29 bitches could have become Champions over the last 6 years. I don't know anything about the breed - but are there that number of bitches who have the quality to have become champions and who missed out?

Tiffany the last record holder was a good brood bitch as well as show dog, producing several champions including a Dog of the Year - the true sign of a great dog

>By winning 90 CC's, it would mean another 29 bitches could have become Champions over the last 6 years.

Not necessarily. Maybe one other bitch could have won half of them, if there was one good enough.

So how would you all feel if you had a dog that you genuinely thought was good enough to be a champion, but kept coming 2nd to that dog. Would you keep showing even after coming 2nd to this dog for a few years, i think i would get a bit demoralised if i kept getting beaten by the same dog year in year out. It has surely happened if this dog has 90CCs, another good dog has surely missed out on becoming a champion.

I'm with you, Jimbob, I think. We got sidetracked further up the post (sorry, wasn't ignoring it, had to do some work for a change) about whether champions should compete for the CC. As I say, I'm not averse to that, but I think after 90 CCs, it does go a bit beyond just showing champions. I would be amazed if it hadn't lost the breed some exhibitors.

M.

Just looked at the longcoat Chi entries at champ shows and they are terrible.  At nearly every show in the Open Bitch class there were only 2 entered!  Many classes had only 1 entered and some none.  The biggest entry in classes was 9! 

Now we are getting numbers like this and we are a rare breed!!  How many Chi's (longcoats) are bred a year?  In reality a small number are shown I'm sure compared to the numbers bred.

I know that they have gone with a downhill spiral in entries over the years and I wonder why?

Not to well up on CCs because i'm in Ireland. Do 3 CCs make the dog a champion regardless of how many other dogs of the same breed are exhibited on the day. Over here we need 40 points to make a champion, each green star has a points value, this is calculated by the number of dogs/bitches exhibited on the day. I got my first green star major in August, there were 11 other bitches exhibited on the day and the GS should be worth 8 points(awaiting confirmation from IKC).So i at least need to win another 4ish Green Stars before she is made up.Does anyone think that it's a bit to easy to make up a champion in certain breeds in the UK.

Where there are very small numbers being exhibited it seems to me to make it pretty easy to make up a champion.As i said i'm not to clued up on CCs, so correct me if i'm wrong.

Jimbob