Just had to rush Piglet to the vet as an emergency case because he couldn't pee; poor lad was standing cocked with a desperate expression and nothing happening. :( He was sedated and catheterised and we got nearly a litre of very strong, very sludgy urine from him, and there's the possibility of surgery if that hasn't worked. Upshot is that he's a stone-former, and it's more than likely that the recent addition of sardines, offal, mackerel, beef etc that I've read as being suggested as 'healthy food' has turned the potential problem into a real one. He will now have to be on low-protein, low purine foods for the rest of his life, and I'm not risking the others with such foods.

Please excuse me sounding bitter and angry, but can everyone who suggests dogs are fed these foods in future always add the proviso to get the dog's urine checked before you start? If I'd been sensible and done that we probably wouldn't be in the situation we are now.

Poor Piglet :(  I hope he's feeling a lot better now his immediate problem is relieved and I do hope surgery is not required. 

Just got back from his emergency op to remove the bladder stone - the catheterisation and flushing didn't work and he immediately obstructed again. :( He's a very poorly puppy tonight, and we've just got to pray that not too much damage was done, and that the swelling won't be too great and obstruct him again and burst his bladder. :(

Poor chap :( That must have been so uncomfortable.  I shall certainly put in a little prayer for you both tonight.

Keeping everything crossed for him JG. I've been through this with cats and know how dangerous it is and how awful for the animal.

Also keeping everything crossed for you JG,  I had a Tibetan Terrier with this problem, he kept making 'sand' rather than big crystals and it was a very bad situation :( :(

Give Piglet a hug JG. :)

Has anyone heard about cider vinegar for stones?  I can't remember where I've seen it. :(

If we can get him through this his diet (and it would be sensible for Harry too) must involve a high proportion of carbohydrate and very low protein. Absolutely NO offal or oily fish ever, and mainly eggs, but a little white fish, chicken and tripe as the protein sources. And plenty of pulped green vegetables. All well soaked and sloppy to make sure that they drink masses of water.

I'll feel a little easier in my mind when I've seen him pee relatively normally, though that's going to be very painful for him.

When he is back home that diet will be ok to follow as it is just cutting out certain things isn't it :)

The trouble is working out a diet that's to be no more than 10% protein without starving the poor little b****rs to death!

It will just take a bit of getting used to :) Maybe Kay can help as she has a lot of knowledge on raw feeding and may know somebody that has had a similar problem :)

Lucy
xx

How is Piglet this morning JG? I hope he had a comfortable night - has he managed to pee himself? I know you must be very worried about his diet, but he's going to feel like a king I'm sure...pasta, scrambled egg, chicken, caviar(??), cheese....all sounds yummy.

Sending him healing thoughts.

Late last night we didn't think he was going to make it; poor boy was very very poorly. But on one of my numerous visits during the night (sleep? Is that the coma of exhaustion you slump into before the nightmares start?) he wagged his tail at me. :) He had his painkiller at 5.30 this morning and at 6.30 managed to get out into the garden where he straddled and strained and after a few minutes managed to wee in fits and starts!! :D :D :D I never thought I'd cry with joy at seeing a dog wee! He's had some breakfast and is now tucked up snug again. We'll try for another wee in a little while. :)

Lovely to hear Piglet has peed!   I hope it gets easier for him soon and perhaps you can both have a bit of a doze today. :)

Great news that he is going out and managing to pee, that's got to be a good sign. Hope he continues to improve at the same rate, best wishes and healing thoughts again to Piglet, Jane

Has anyone heard about cider vinegar for stones?  I can't remember where I've seen it.

Was mentioned on a previous thread quite recently and i know it works with humans - my dad is living proof.

That's why bells were ringing! ;)

As JG has explained there are stones and stones, some forming due to an alkaline urine and some forming because the urine is too acidic.  As vinegar is acetic acid nobody should take something like that on a regular basis without first checking with their vet or doctor that they will not, in fact, be doing far more harm than good. 

Oh dear JG sorry to hear Piglet is so poorly :(

Will be thinking about him and hope he makes a full recovery, I am sure he will be fine and try not to worry which I know must be hard :)

Lucy
xx

Fingers and paws crossed here for Piglet.

Oh bless him. Fingers and paws crossed here for Piglet

Dee

Aww, sorry Piglet that is so nasty, I hope he is much better real soon.:rolleyes:
Karen

Im so sorry to hear this :(
Piglet being one of my most favourite CD characters! makes it worse hearing what you've both been through :(
Do hope the worst is over for poor Piggy and you.. x

Only help I can give is for any novice Dalmation owners reading this and worrying: Hattrick Dalmations have a good article on this Click here! I found it by chance when my dog at the time befriended a Male Dal and his owner in the village next to ours, and I felt guilty about being cagey about my BARF diets for my dogs when questioned by the Dal owner on our walk chats and found that article for him. Ive always been an avid fan of the 'Dont just do it' Natural Diet article by Caberfeidh Deerhounds.

Healing thoughts for Piglet and a large glass of the Bombay good stuff for you.. x

Fingers crossed for Piglet here too

>no more than 10% protein without starving the poor little b****rs to death!<

Yikes You'll have your work cut out for you there,i'm not sure how a dog would survive healthily on 10% protein My vet has always said the absolute minimum amount of protein should be 22%,dogs will survive on less than this but not very well.

If this were my dog i would look into a raw diet,you rarely see these kinds of problems in raw fed dogs.

FTR my dogs get everything you listed regularly,and 99% of the dog owners i know,both personally and on the many websites i frequent, give their dogs fish of some sort on a weekly(or more, basis),so thankfully from what i gather most dogs can have these healthy additions with only positive benefits.I just dont want posters who are reading this to freak out and stop feeding these kinds of foods as most dogs handle them just fine,and i will continue to recommend as many healthy fresh food additions as possible,as for the 'normal' dog a urine test before feeding a 'natural' and 'fresh food' diet should be completely uneccesary,i would even go as far to say that the modern processed foods are the main cause of these kinds of problems in the first place.

JG what dry/commercfial food do you feed?

I hope little piglet makes a full and quick recovery. :)

Sorry Ktee this comment did make me laugh;

>as for the 'normal' dog a urine test before feeding a 'natural' and 'fresh food' diet should be completely uneccesary<

(I work as an Instructor for a Police force and we're not allowed to use the descriptive word 'Normal' ;) )
And you can see why, Ian Billinghurst says (in the article I posted up earlier):

>The formation of these stones occurs because Dalmatians are a unique breed of dog that excretes uric acid in their urine rather than allantoin as do all other dog breeds<

Dals are still 'Normal' dogs ;) and they're not the only breed where Diet cannot be a one size fits all, In my breed for example I have to be very careful of Zinc defficiency but I prefer to say most 'other' dogs dont have to be rather than most 'normal' dogs have to be ;)

Semantics? maybe...
But it is a very valid and important point that JG raises, Ive always hated 'Species appropriate diet' being used Ive always thought 'Breed appropriate' would be much more sensible a monicker given the varying health and physiological considerations there are for certain and differing breeds.

Good points HG :) 'other' dogs instead of 'normal' probably would have more appropriate.I agree with breed specific diets to a point but am yet not fully convinced,i am guilty of using the term 'species appropriate' though.As a species, dogs IMO are carnivores and their diet should be made up of mostly meat first,not grains,fragments and such,these do have their place sometimes in small amounts but not as the main staple of any dogs diet IMHO. :)

>Sorry Ktee this comment did make me laugh;<

:D yeah ok,wrong choice of word :p :D

Ktee,

>i will continue to recommend as many healthy fresh food additions as possible,

By all means, but never forget to also point out the risks for certain breeds, or you could end up being the unwitting cause of the misery my dog's going through.

>as for the 'normal' dog a urine test before feeding a 'natural' and 'fresh food' diet should be completely uneccesary

Can you explain how 'natural' seafish is for a dog? How do they catch them 'in the wild'?

Also, every single dalmatian in the world has a different urinary system to other breeds and it's not safe to feed them the same diet as other breeds. That's not even allowing for individual intolerances that all dogs are likely to have. This is why 'breed appropriate' is a better approach then 'species appropriate'. A 'one size fits all' attitude to diet is entirely inappropriate and nearly cost my dog his life. He's not out of the woods yet.

>Can you explain how 'natural' seafish is for a dog? How do they catch them 'in the wild'?<

Labs and sibes are the first dogs that come to mind who do well on fish,because i believe it was part of their early diet.I'm sure there many other dogs who fit into this criteria.

My point with the other post was you said dals should not have oily fish or small amounts if at all of offal in a previous thread,but in this thread you named these as being foods you fed piglet.

>Labs and sibes are the first dogs that come to mind who do well on fish,because i believe it was part of their early diet

I've never seen dogs hunting mackerel, but I'll take your word for it that they do. ;)

My point about the oily fish was that in the past I'd given all the dogs the occasional (shared) tin of sardines, etc, because of reading here how much other people's dogs enjoyed it and 'how good it was for them'. Then when I talked to the experts (ie, other people with the breed) I realised how stupid I was being and stopped. They haven't had any for over a year. But it appears I didn't stop soon enough.

That's why I've learned that anyone suggesting particular foods without knowing the breed or individual is taking a risk. It seems an innocent enough thing to do, but can have very serious repercussions.

How's Piglet today JG? Is he eating ok and peeing??

Continuing healing thoughts :)

>My vet has always said the absolute minimum amount of protein should be 22%,

To give you an idea, the medically formulated and balanced diet for this condition is 3.6% protein.

>the medically formulated and balanced diet for this condition is 3.6% protein.<

Is this a canned diet? If so you'de have to figure out the dry weight protein amount.

The 'protein content' (but what sort of protein? It needs to  be low purine) of a dry food would need to be no more than 14.4%. But stone formers should be fed wet food, not dry, and even then extra water needs to be added.

To give you an idea, the medically formulated and balanced diet for this condition is 3.6% protein.

Goodness we're all learning with you on this one JG!

I understand that 3.6% is right to stop Piglet producing stones, but how can such a low protein level be balanced for the rest of his body to function efficiently?

It's very difficult to judge what's the right thing to do, Val. There's so much conflicting advice; it's a very steep learning curve, and a matter of life and death, not just personal preference.

What a worry.  It goes against everything we believe to be correct. :(

How old is he JG?  He didn't have a problem with stones for ..... years so how about going back to whatever you fed3 years ago????  Just thinking out loud! :D

He's 7. ( I can't believe he's a veteran! He still looks like a puppy!) The thing is nobody knows how long he's actually had the problem - it's only now it's shown up because the stone moved and blocked his urethra. If it hadn't done that he could have gone on for years without showing that he was a timebomb.

I spent a 'lovely' time this morning getting a urine sample from Harry to take for testing to see if he's making crystals as well. Every time I got the jar under him he stopped in disgust in midflow, giving me that "Get off! Leave me alone you perv" look! :D

>I spent a 'lovely' time this morning getting a urine sample from Harry to take for testing to see if he's making crystals as well. Every time I got the jar under him he stopped in disgust in midflow, giving me that "Get off! Leave me alone you perv" look!<

the things we do for love eh! :-D

We have a couple of Dals at our training club and I'm going to ask them if they know about this problem. Liver cake and tuna cake are club favorites. :-(

Thanks for the links, HG! :) Unfortunately the Hattrick list of foods has "Seafoods - any fatty fish, herring, salmon, sardines, etc" without the proviso that these are a huge no-no for stone-forming dals because of their high purine content. :( I found this list of which foods Piglet (and Harry to be on the safe side) must avoid.

Luckily this article is written in easy layman's terms and I'm trying to learn it by heart!

I thought that the article was fascinating.
A friend who has a spayed Boxer bitch also has trouble with stones.
I wonder if it is diet that is causing her problems too? After reading this
perhaps it is a strong possiblity

Sincerely hope that Piglet comes through this OK.

I gather it's important to know what type of stones they are. The more common types are oxalate and struvite stones, usually as a result of repeated infections. Struvite stones grow in alkaline urine (often caused by bacterial infections), whereas oxalate stones grow in acid urine. Urate stones (which dals are prone to) also prefer acidic urine. Urine acidity tests are needed, and preferably a sample of the stone or gravel, to determine which sort of bladder stones are forming, because the different types require different treatment.

(I can see I've got a lot of reading and research to do, from as many sources as possible!)

>Urate stones (which dals are prone to) also prefer acidic urine.

So cider vineger would surely be a big no no.  Did your vet manage to capture a stone for analysis?
I'm sure I don't need to tell you what I feel about internet web sites and "advise" ;).  Can your vet perhaps source you some qualified advise on what would make up a safe diet for Piglet even an actual diet plan?  Are the ready made diets out of the question for your preference/pocket/Piglet's specific requirements?

Yes, we found the culprit! Who'd have thought something that small (about 5mm by 3mm) would cause so much trouble? A bitch, with the wider urethra they have, would have passed it no problem. The stone will be sent to Minnesota for analysis. Tests at the surgery showed his urine to have a 'perfect' PH of 7.

Yes, the ready-made diets are fine for the emergency but will be way out of my price range for longterm use, even with staff discount! So we're going to have to work together to sort out something both effective and affordable. I've certainly learned my lesson the hard way (though not as hard a way as Piglet has) about listening to amateurs rather than experts.

Yes, I suspected they would be pretty pricey.  I'm sure you will be able to work out something yourself when you have all the information.  Will the vet be able to tell you just what Ph you should be aiming for to prevent a reoccurance and if so would monitoring the Ph of the urine as you go along tell you if you are getting it right?

Poor Piglet, and what a shock and worry for you JG. Hope he settles on his new diet, a friend of mine is prone to attacks of gout and has to eat a low purine diet, be careful of green veggies - I think some (like spinach?) can be high purine. Good news though - tapioca could be on the menu for you all :)

> and it's more than likely that the recent addition of sardines, offal, mackerel, beef etc that I've read as being suggested as 'healthy food' <

You pulled me up a while ago for suggesting all dogs should be getting fish/fish oil,below you wrote that they should be avoided,and also eluded to not giving offal.To me,it sounded as iff you were saying Dals should not have these things,or am i reading it incorrectly?

So youre saying dals cant have fish or fish oil products?

>Those who've made particular studies of the problem certainly suggest this - oily fish anyway; white fish is okay - also that if offal is given at all it should only be in the very smallest quantities.<

Sardines and mackerel are oily fish,arent they?

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/89365.html

I'm not sure I understand - I haven't eluded anything.

Let me make the position clear. I read on the internet (not only this site - many others too) about the health benefits of raw feeding, and what people were suggesting should be included. In my naivety I thought this sounded good but none of the sites had breed-specific provisos and stupidly didn't read enough. I started to include oily fish and a touch of offal. It seems that this will have accelerated the damage that was being done to my dog.

Yes, sardines and mackerel are oily fish, which is why I stated that those who've made studies of the problem certainly suggest that these should be avoided, but that white fish is okay. Perhaps you missed the importance of the punctuation in my post?

Poor piglet - and poor you!   What a couple of days to go through!!

Can't offer any helpful advice - just a shoulder to cry on & a bottle of something alcoholic for you ;)

But I am going to look something up & come back later.

{{hugs}}

Margot

I knew I had read something about Dals & stones - it was in a newsletter I get from US, in April, and here I'm quoting directly from it :-

Two medications are often prescribed for Dalmatians with urate crystals: allopurinol and potassium citrate. Allopurinol prevents ammonium from becoming urate crystals; potassium citrate raises urine pH so that the urine is more alkaline. In alkaline urine (pH near 7.5), urate crystals cannot form. Dalmatians with urate crystals are also encouraged to drink lots of water, which will keep the urine dilute. Crystals are less likely to form in dilute urine.

Some commercial diets have been developed for dogs with urate stones (UD and KD, Purina NF dry, and Iams Advanced), but many dogs don't like these diets. For them, homemade diets can be formulated by Angell Memorial Hospital in Boston (617 541 5043).

Website is http://drpollen.blogspot.com/2006_04_01_drpollen_archive.html (scroll down to Dalmations)

Hope its of some interest/help

Margot x