Hi all

hyperthetical question...

if a person judging a few classes at an open show has say 30 dogs entered under him, and on the day only 20 dogs actually turned up and appeared in classes, would the 30 count towards his judging experience/credit or would it be the 20 ?

i know that previously if a friend was judging somewhere, you would enter your dog under him but not actually turn up or take the dog in the ring if you did turn up, but all entries woiuld be counted as judging experience/ credit when being considered for higher judging appointments.
it was my understanding that the rules have changed slightly and now only the number of dogs that actually turn up on the day count rather than the number actually entered.

i hope you can understand what im asking.

Z

It is only the number of dogs actually judged so if you don't turn up your dog does not count. The form you fill in for KC shows number of dogs entered and number actually judged. We had one prospective judge in my breed who tried to claim to have judged more dogs than were entered at the show. He had added up the number of dogs in each class, so if a dog was entered in 3 classes he was claiming that as 3 dogs judged! We spotted it, and he did not move up into the next category as he hadn't judged enough dogs.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

A friend would give a "Compimentary entry" to swell the number of dogs entered under you but absent dogs do not count in your "Judging experience"

Regards, John

hi"doddery old fool",
is this the coruption of the show world, not a insentive for the new comers,i have heard it all now, us new comers are not so niave, at a recent open show, looking at my catolouge i see a ch in my breed being entered,why would a ch be entered in a small open show,a bit of a back hander here i thought,give my dog best of breed and take best in show and i'll make sure you get plenty of judging invites,did get best of breed and went best in show, trouble is you don't know if the likes of this devious cheating so and so is going to be at a show until you get there.a waste of time and money when there are people like that out there, you put my dog up and i put your dog up,we know you are out thereand you all get slagged of behind your backs as being face judges, but best to keep ones gob closed i guess and take the rough with the smooth, sorry joan had to nick your saying there.

I totaly agree with you 100 % there as ive seen this happen too

kelly

Yes, only dogs present on the day count towards a judge's experience - you have to give totals for dogs entered, dogs present & number of absentees on KC judging questionnaires now, so complimentary entries don't help judges anymore.

Jane

just as i thought

thanks everyone

Z

There is nothing to stop a Ch. being shown at an open show in fact some people say that they should so people judging at that level can get their hands on good dogs. Have had them under me, and although it can be a bit intimidating, I have tried to judge the dog infront of me, and found in a lot of cases the Ch. dogs do not show that well at open level, seem to now it is not that important, and therefore don't get top place, well not under me though don't. It's disapointing when you have admired a dog to finaly get it under your hand find it's exelent bone, admire it's head and see it stand like a sack of potatos, and find yourself giving BOB to something you've realy not noticed before. Ja:)kie

i agree with both Jackie H and aoife
i can see both points of view, but tend to lean more towards aoife` reasoning
sad though it may be
my personal experience of this is someone in my breed who turns up at open shows with their Ch dog where the entry is probably no more than 10 or 15 dogs. Not all open shows, just every now and again. they then tend to go BOB, BIS.
They then have the audacity to go strutting about bragging to all who will listen about their latest achievment whilst wearing their BOB rosette
i dont beleive that this is anything to do with "gamesmanship" at all
more of a case of they are on to a sure winner before they leave the house
yet if they get beaten at any show, they pack up and leave immediataly(sp)

personally i find it more than a little annoying to say the least

Z

So what does everyone think about the recent judges working party suggestion about mandatory attendance at open shows before qualifying for some awards? And how about junior warrants? If (for some reason which I cant figure out, but could happen) a dog made up before it was out of Junior, it might still have to attend OPen Shows to pick up its required points?

On a personal note, we dont take our Champions to open shows (in fact, dont tend to show at open shows at all) however, from a Breed Committee point of view, any entry at our Open Show is a welcome entry! I can think of at least one local exhibitor whose entry at an Open Show suggests an almost guaranteed win for them apart from one memorable occasion this summer when the expected BPIS didn't acheive 1st place in its class - the tantrum had to be seen to be believed, and she is still not talking to the judge.
Gwen

Hi Gwen
do you mean if a dog gets made a Champion before it leaves junior then they woudl still have to go to open shows to get the points required for a JW before being confirmed a champion ?
or am i totally getting it wrong here :p
if not wrong i think thats a great idea

i think everyone should attend some open shows with their dogs
a lot of canine societys could do with the support and revenue
this year is the first year ive shown a dog in 8 or 9 years and have noticed that the open show has changed drastically in that time.
less entries in all breeds
even less actual attendance (the only thing to stop me attending once entered is either death, flood or famine)
less trade stands

there also seems to be a lot more people not prepared to work their way up and seem to think that they should all have JW`s by 9 months and 3CC`s no more than 3 months later (all with their first ever dog mind !!) :rolleyes:

whooopps
getting a bit of track there :D

Z

Hi Z,
I just didnt explain it well - yes I meant if a Dog got its title before it had gained all its open show points it would have to compete at an open show to complete its JW. Not a likely scenario I know, but someone might be desperate to have a chance at the JW final competition.

Whilst in principal I see that compulsory attendance at an open show before qualifying for Ch shows (which is often disucssed) would theoretically increase entries, not sure if it would work in practice. Would the 'grass roots' open show exhibitors really appreciate the influx of potentially better dogs (Please, please dont all shout me down on this - I know not all Champions, and potential Champions are great dogs, or are necessarily better than the regulars of open shows, but a lot of them are, and we are working on a theory here!)?
Gwen

Only one exhibit in my breed has so far managed to gain a JW, and that with a lot of campaigning, she also has two CCs and several RCCs.

My own bitch was 4 points short on her Open show wins, had enough classes (10) but not the required 3 dog minimum in four of them. she had lots of Ch show points to spare and had won a CC and RCC before 18 months. At one Open show sahe had won two breed classes BEst bitch, and RBOB (only one dog entered and he was BOB), plus two large stakes classes, in other words was unbeaten in any class, but not one point did she gain.

Rather than encourage Open show attendance the new JW discourages, as most people know that they will have a hard time earning the points in numerically small breeds with a small number of youngsters coming through each year.

I would far rather attend Open shows, but there is no point going if there is no competition, and judges that know less about my breed than a Novice exhibitor!

I do like Varieties at Open show2s, as at least you oft4en get a knowledgeavle opinion on your exhibit, as they are often done by the main judge, but these seem to be harder and harder to find.

Ann Roslin Williams Column in response to a letter rec3ently in the Dog Press from someone who aqdvocated doing away with Groups and Best in Shows at Championship shows. The important thing is breed judging.

Maybe Open shows should just be varieties then? Maybe all these special sponsored stakes classes could be held all over the country at Open shows, and regional heats run, and a grand final???

hi gwen,
when you post that you would not show at a open show it sounds awfully snobbish, and that it's only good enough for the little people, i am well aware even being a novice that the "names" only show at ch level and then don't even bother with puppy etc and bring them out only when they think they are going to get the ticket. you make it sound by your postings that everything you bring out is a or going to be a ch, and that happens in alot of breeds there are just people who dominate the breed, good luck to them, we little people take the rough with the smooth.
i realy enjoy the dog show scene open and ch shows i just don't like the politics behind it.regards tina

Hi Tina, Didnt mean to sound snobbish - just stating a fact. I think if Mike turned up at an open show with the Americans there would be a mass walk out by the open show regulars. When I used to show horses it was called "Pot Hunting" - taking County Class show horses to Riding Club show just to pick up the Ribbons and Trophies. What I was trying to convey is that a lot of people have "Open Show" dogs, they do a lot of winning at open shows, which is lovely for them and there owners, but are not up the standard of big wins Championship shows. I dont realy see that it is fair for people with dogs well on the way to a title to cream of the prizes at open shows. And I dont see that it would help the open show entries, if the 'grass-roots' open show exhibitors saw there prize cards being taken by othere week after week.

Lets face it, we have a 2 (3 if you count exemption) tier show system. People at different levels, with different expectations, and different goals. And yes, we do aim to make everyone up into a Champion - it doesnt happen, of course, because many promising pups dont go on to mature into great dogs. However, it is our policy to look at our own dogs honestly and when we see that one of them is not measuring up to expectations they are retired from the ring. However, we most certainly "do" puppy classes! What we dont do is insist on bringing out the pup to the show as close as possible to its 6 month birthday - we wait until it is ready. If this mean it misses puppy classes completely, then it misses them. Arabella didn't come out to the ring until she was 13 months old! I cant talk about other kennels, but I am sure quite a few of the succesful ones operate on the similar systems.

Your comment about "dominating" certain breeds - not sure if I should pick up on it or not. We are certainly the biggest winning kennel in American Cockers - this is not an attempt at domination, just the happy fruit of years of careful breeding, meticulous scrutiny of dogs and pedigrees, and a devoted team all working together. Of course, the 'cherry on the top' is that Mike is an incredibly talented handler, and his presentation is second to none. These are skill which he is happy to share with others, which is why we now have Lisa and Susan handling too. A lot of the big winning kennels\handlers ofter get thrown at them they only win because they are faces - very few people are actually born "faces", they had to climb up through the ranks too, it is just a fact of life that not all people are equal at doing everything - some are better at handling than others!

Sorry to everyone else if this sounds like shamelss promo. of our kennels. When you work very hard at something it is difficult to repeatedly here it is all down to luck, contacts, or some sort of magic charm!

Incidentally, when I have apuppy here I do go to open shows - my lack of handling skill certainly dont cause anyone to feel intimidated!
Gwen

First - sorry for length of above post. Secondly, what does everyone else think? Regular open show competitiors, would you like it if the Champ. show regulars entered at the open shows regularly? Champ show attendees, anyone else want to say what there reasoning is form there own kennels entries?

And I know a whole lot of people regularly enter both - what do you think about the whole open v champ thing?
Gwen

We don't do many open shows either, Gwen (except for breed club shows), unless we have a new puppy that needs some practice & even then we would only go to one or two all-breed open shows at the most. The reason for this is as you say, we don't want to be thought of as "pot hunters" - there is definitely some resentment from the open show "regulars" if seasoned Champ show exhibitors turn up, particularly if they win (you get the usual ringside grumblings about "face judging"!) I don't consider this being "snobby" - we are in a numerically popular breed where we have tickets at most Champ shows & where we have a large number of regional breed clubs each holding 2 open shows (as well as Champ shows in rotation), we don't have the time or inclination to trundle around all the all-breed open shows too, although we enjoyed them immensely when we first started showing & didn't have dogs good enough to do well at Champ shows.

Unfortunately, judges are meant to gaining experience at open shows & if the best dogs are kept away from open shows, then sometimes a judge will not get their hands on top quality dogs until they get their first champ show appointment which cannot be a good thing. On the other hand, if the top dogs also attend open shows, this could make entries plummet further if the "open show regulars" decide not to bother entering assuming (not necessarily correctly) that the well-known champ show dogs will win. Don't know what the solution to this dilemma is really .........

Jane

I think you put your finger on it. It depends on your breed whether it is usual to show Champions at all, or show them at Open shows. In popular breeds with a surfeit of opportunities to show at the highest level, then I can see why people with the dogs that are really the cream of their breed anc capable of winning Ch show Groups and BIS, that them turning up at Open shows would be resented.

In numerically small breeds like mine things are somewhat different, and because the winners are not as high profile, then it is unlikely that they will automatically win at Open level. In actual fact I have been beaten at Open shows far more often than at Champ shows with my Ch bitch!

Maybe when dogs win at high levels and they are photographed in the dog press only photos of the dogs should appear. Much harder to judge a face if they aren't in your face in the papers!

This year I have had a couple of Stakes wins and a Group place ,and everytime they took photos of the people, except for the Group places at SWKA, but Hills still wanted an advert with me in!!

Hi Jane, Dizzy, Brainless and everyone else repleying here. It realy looks like this is a 'horses for courses' thing, very much depending on the breed. Good point Jane, about lack of time - if you are doing almost all of the Ch show circuit, as will as Club opens (we have 3 per year) plus judging commitments, it does not leave much time for attending general open shows to compete! And I do think it would be awfully greedy if at every available moment you trotted out your big winning dogs to the local open shows, to pick up a few extra prize cards.

Re: judge training. It seems to be one of those questions with no real answer. If champions went to open shows it would give trainee judges the chance to get hands on with good dogs before during their early stages of judging, but this would then decrease the regular open show dogs, so lowering the numbers available to judge overall. David Cavill, in his column recently, put forward the idea of 'judging apprenticeships', requesting that you could have an experienced judge allow you to accompany them on judging appointments, so that you serve a probationary judging period, learning from an expert, before entering the ring yourself. Seems like a great idea, but how many people are prepared to wait that long, a lot of prospective judges seem dead set on fast tracking themselves up the ladder from the moment they enter a breed!
Gwen

I think a lot will depend on what you have to show.

I am in a happy position of having a champion bitch, and her mother who is a RCC winner, who are my current show dogs.

The two Veterans are now retired from Champ shows, as we rarely have classes, and they are not good enough for the stakes really.

At open shows I take the younger Veteran and the two others to support the breed if we have classes, often having to put them in same class as they are Limit and Open exhibits. If I am only supporting the show as opposed to breed classes then I will put the Veteran in varieties only.

Frankly I prefer it when shows are not on the Group system, as then if there is one the Champions don't need to be entered in the Breed, but winer of champion, or any other class if an unbeaten dog, can go through to the BIS judging, where hopefully an experienced judge will have a worthwhile ringful of dogs to judge, rather than just a couple of Group winners!

The owner of my bitches sire only has Two Champion males (unti last year 3 Ch males) that are family companions, both now Veterans, though the younger one is still picking up the occasional Cc or RCC.

Now if they want to show, they have no option but to enter Open shows, as even if they went to all the CC shows they would only attend 18 a year. They have young children, and stick to shows within a catchment area, so probably get about 8 of the CC ones fall in their range. they also like the more relaxed atmosphere of the Open shows, and like to support the classes at local shows, as otherwise we loose them.

In my own area if the people who have Champions or CC winners did not support, then there would be no dogs in the classes, as most of us at5 the moment are showing Limit/Open exhibits, though one of us has a new puppy just out.

I show at all levels. (Although I haven't attended many exemption shows this year).
I only currently have 2 dogs, so not a big kennel by any means
and neither is a champion :)
However I try and exhibit at as many 'local' open shows as I possibly can
and also championship shows all-breed and single breed.
My youngest dog does well in stakes classes at Ch shows either shortlisted
or placed. The best placing we have had is winning a large Petplan junior bitch stakes class at 3cos on working day. However we have found it hard to break into the breed class placings (she managed to qualify for Crufts at Paignton by gaining 3rd in Junior bitch), she has had the odd placing.
She seems to do well under all-rounders and some breed specialists. So I can never tell who to enter under and who not to ;)
She has also done fairly well at open show level too, BOB,RBOB and a few Best Pup awards, 1 puppy group win and a 4th in puppy group.
The older one well if I am being perfectly honest she was a cracker as a puppy, good as junior (got down to the final 4 for a CC under a foreign judge) and now is quite 'heavy' in type since having her pups. I don't tend to show her, but did show under a judge this weekend, we got 2nd out of 2. But I didn't mind, as I knew that she really wasn't in show condition, but I wanted to make the numbers count as the judge only had an entry of 8. My dog enjoyed herself and after judging I did apologise to the judge
for her not being in A1 condition etc. Had the entry been bigger I would have withdrawn her from the class. My youngster was the only one in the junior class, which happened to us on Saturday so now she is qualified out of Novice, thru being the only dog in 2 classes and winning a junior class of 9 at open show. We used to have entries of approx 30 or so at open shows and now you are lucky to have an entry of 10.
The other thing is that entry costs are rising and it is a fairly expenisve hobby, so you have to decide what would you rather do and as an average guide you can say by the time petrol/diesel and food etc has been taken into account, Champ shows can average at £50-100 each show
and open shows £25-30. Obviously with more dogs the costs will increase etc.
Yes at some shows it does seem very political, with some placings, also
sometimes when a dog is on a good run it is hard to get past them.
(My youngest dogs aunty had an amazing run in junior, 17 classes entered
and 15 won!, she is now a Ch.). But on the whole another judge another day is my philosophy, if the same people keep winning yes it does get a bit predictable but if they have the best dogs they will. It is up to us to up our game and come out with a cracker :)
I'll not give up, afterall one day I'll be an old crinkly and a 'face' in the breed and then it will be my turn to win ;)
Kind Regards
Kirstine

Hi Kirstine, you sound just like me, each show is a new experience. I do feel that the Open shows seem to be dying on their feet. If people can't take competition from all comers why then did limited shows to all intents and purposes die? If some people are afraid of good competiton why didn't they support these. If I felt that way I would stay at local Open shows where with low entries I am bound to get 1st to third every time out, but I show at Champ shows to have my dogs assessed against the best.

I would hate it if CCs were awarded to the highest placed Non champion, or like in the US that only non Champions compete for Points, and then the Champions come in to Challenge these winners.

having sharpei with all of there strange breed points i rarely go to open shows. not many judges know the finer points of the breed and although i never mind if a quality dog beats me i really stuggle to cope with a not so good one winning , -the odd time i do open shows is if i know the judge knows and understands the breed, but then im accused of only coming out if im going to win!
ive done 1 open show this year, the rest have all been champ shows

kirstine-b
nicely put, later part very good,we all have our dreams and this is what keeps most people going as you said, like the lotto hand pointing "IT COULD BE YOU".regards tina

hi gwen
thanks for the reply,i think yes in a honest world of dog showing it would be good for the successfull kennels to show at open level, it gives those up and coming judges a chance to see the cream and watch that dog progress up the ladder, but as you said if mike turned up at a open show, everyone would be saying of course he is going to get best in show, if you put a pet quality dog on the end of the lead and mike took it in who would have the guts to throw him out!!!!!!, does that make sence gwen, i for one would not knock those that have worked hard to build up a kennel,there are some cracking dogs out there at open level that are worthy of being made ch but don't get the chance because there are those that do dominate the breed, the judges have to start judging the dogs and not who is on the end of the lead,example someone in a breed wanted to test this out to see if the judge would judge the dog or who was on the end of the lead, the dog is judged and given the ticket, the dog is not the ch that the judge presumed it to be, but a dog that had only showed at open level with a few first prizes, this is the polotics of the show world,the odd few judges that do judge honestly are few and far between, then you see the names throw the tantrum.again like you say a good handler makes all the difference,i suppose when you are a name in the world of dogs you are expected to produce only the best,gwen i think your dogs are lovely, and if mr gadsby is free anytime, just send him down to the west country,can only offer a pint of larger and a packet of crisps in payment though!!!!!.regards tina