I am amazed that owners that go to training classes are made to use these. If you don't like them say so and don't use them. The trainers can't make you. You pay their fees so surely it is up to you what you use.

I've attended 2 different training clubs and never been told to use a choke chain or even had a choke chain recommended as a suitable method. 

We'd get kicked out of classes if we attended using choke chains or slip leads, our trainers encourage us to work hard at heel work without the use of any aids, however, if neccessary, a halti or harness is acceptable. :)

At the two clubs I have attended the use of choke chains is forbidden in class.

Same here - in fact the trainer insisting we use a harness so that there was no pressure on the throat or neck - you were not allowed to train if you didn't have the harness.

I certainly would never use a choke chain either and would refuse to use one - but if I think back to when I first started dog training and being less knowledgeable I suppose if someone told me that's what I needed to use I might have been naive enough to do it so maybe these people just don't have the knowledge to disagree.

At my club you are allowed to use them but taught how to use them correctly, if you don't quickly learn how to use them correctly you are told to get rid of it.  3 of my dogs are walked on checks and they are also showen on them :)

I think the show chains are slightly different though - I have used one too but lost it! - my thought of a choke chain is a very heavy chain - not a fine chain? that really clonks and is very wide?

that really clonks and is very wide?

That was Barbara Woodhouse's idea - a thick one releases quicker and is used just to make a noise, not to choke, to remind the dog that it should be walking on a loose lead. :)

A heavy chain in theroy should do less dammage then a fine chain.  A fine chain can cut alot easier then what a thick chain can.

The clonks is the idea of a check.  The noise makes the dog think what it's doing.  The same theory as squirtying water at a dog...

Sorry guys not used one so excuse my ignorance ! ;) you live and learn as they say!

It's no problem.  There are so many horror stories about them as so many people use them incorrectly.

Like anything, if not used correctly it's dangerous

ive seen a "cheese grater" show chain used to greatr effect! & in fact get a "better" response than a normal chain.

At my club you are allowed to use them but taught how to use them correctly, if you don't quickly learn how to use them correctly you are told to get rid of it.  3 of my dogs are walked on checks and they are also showen on them

I think that you've hit the nail on the head ice_queen.  Used correctly, they are an excellent, simple and efficient collar.  There's nothing worse than seeing a dog yanked on a check chain and can cause damage.

I admit there's nothing worse then one being used inncorrectly, or one being used on a young puppy :(

In this day and age though we now know of ways to teach a dog to walk nicely on the lead without any janking or pulling whatsoever, regardless of the type of collar used -should be no need to keep jerking the dog about. I don't think I have ever given my 16 month old Malinois a jank on the lead in his life.

we now know of ways to teach a dog to walk nicely on the lead without any janking or pulling whatsoever

I've never had to yank or pull a dog on a check chain - the noise does the job.  All I see these days are dogs on harnesses pulling their owners arms out of their sockets! :(

I've never had to yank or pull a dog on a check chain - the noise does the job.
Your dogs must be unusual then, judging by the number of people we see dragged into the hall at our club by dogs on choke chains. :) (Which then they have to remove f they want to take part.) I also remember all the pulling my first ever dog did, on a choke chain.

LOL - being totally honest the only dog I've ever trained to not pull on a lead was trained and walked on firstly a check chain and latterly a slip lead :D

I now use half checks or leather slips for both showing and walks and they do tend to pull a bit - not excessively though - and I gave up on the stopping and starting every two seconds routine after about a month on each :D

I think I've got "hot hand syndrome" - bit like my "hot bott" on horses :rolleyes:   They believe their born to lead me and I just let them get on with it because the much applauded soft options just don't work with mine and I certainly wouldn't resort to yanking them about. 

They give me so much including "flying lessons" and seriously testing my hair spray :D  Cute, too cute :P

Stopping all the time would drive me nuts as well Teri. :)

:D I prefer halters. Willis doesn't. He just walks along with his eyes shut LOL

Phoebe walks along on a normal collar and a long lead and doesn't pull. She just walks at the end of it. If it were 20 foot long she'd be that far away. Let her off the lead and she pulls a lot less LOL

>If it were 20 foot long she'd be that far away

That's it!  I've got mini-Danes :D :D :D

Our lab was the same. She'd walk at the end of the lead too. If you dropped the lead she instantly came close to heel - until you picked the lead up again. :rolleyes:

Your dogs must be unusual then

My dogs are normal and I'm a very normal ;) dog lady! :)  Technique, as in many things, is everything, but it seems to have been forgotten except for a few old trainers. :rolleyes:  I've frequently trained grooming parlour dogs in minutes that have dragged their owners through the door on a harness.  Some owners never manage the gentle training options elther. :(  With arthritis and a bad back, I couldn't afford to have dogs that didn't walk on a loose lead, especially walking more than one at a time.

Having said that I would prefer to see people who don't know how to use a chain use an alternative method rather than yank and choke a dog. :)

Technique, as in many things, is everything, but it seems to have been forgotten except for a few old trainers. rolleyes

Erm, a minute ago you said you don't have to jerk the dog on the choke chain but that the NOISE is enough........:rolleyes: I know very well how to use a choke chain correctly and it most certainly does involve using it. I was talking about NEVER having to jerk or jank even at the very beginning before the dog has learnt not to pull.

I know very well how to use a choke chain correctly and it most certainly does involve using it.

The old fashioned way must be different.:rolleyes:  If the chain is loose around the dog's neck, with a tasty treat in the left hand in front of the dog's nose, a quick flick on a couple of links doesn't choke or pull the dog's neck at all. :)

You're still using it. :) It's still negative reinforcement.

It's a collar - if you don't attach a lead, is the dog getting 'negative reinforcement'? Personally I think, used correctly, they're much better than a harness. :)

a quick flick on a couple of links

That's what Val said JG.

But the chain should be loose enough to flick a few links before it take sup a contact with the neck - surely? Isn't that the point - to make the noise?

But in that case, what is the difference beween this, a plain leather collar and a can of pebbles? And I know most people here would say "no way" to the pebbles.

I thought i'd seen people recommending a can of stones. But it'd be much more difficult when using another noise-indicator to get the timing right if you're holding a lead correctly - unless of course you have three hands! ;) And as we all know, timing is absolutely vital. :)

No difference at all... neither cause pain, its just personal preference

But I wasn't talking about pain, I was talking about positive and negative methods.

What's the difference between the clink on a chain and a click on a clicker? They're both using harmless sounds to give a dog a message.

Gosh JG you DO surprise me! The CLICKER is PRAISE (and is followed by a treat or toy, this being the actual reason for why the dog associates the click with something pleasant), and the click must come a split second after or just as the dog is doing RIGHT. The sound of the chain is NOT praise and comes when the dog does WRONG! For it to be no difference, the chain must be flicked when the dog does RIGHT. Alternatively if the dog sees it as a click it would then teach the dog to pull!

Again, you're missing the point! ;) The chain is clinked while the collar is loose - so the dog's still walking with the lead loose - which is what you want. You (or this is how I was taught!) clink the chain when you can see the dog's about to go too far forward. If the dog already is too far forward or actually pulling, then your timing's out and you're actually teaching the dog to pull, as you say! Just as many people (myself included in the past) make the mistake of saying "Heel" when the dog's pulling, so it associates the word with the action, instead of correctly saying "Heel" when the dog's actually at heel! ;)

I think we're just misunderstanding each other. :) I see what you mean now, but my point is that it is better to reward for doing right than having to draw attention when the dog is about to do wrong. :) That's what clicker training is all about, reinforcing the good rather than the bad.

Oh and forgot to add, the difference then being the clicker sound is giving attention to the right behaviour, the chain sound is attention to the wrong.

The clicker is a sign the dog has done something correctly so it gets a reward...the clink of the chain means a warning, the dog has avoided the "punishment".

Marianne is referring to operant conditioning (sorry I know people will  roll their eyes) :P.

This may clarify (if Tohme was here she'd do it better than me :P ):

Positive reinforcement: adding something the animal will work for to increase a behaviour (giving a treat for sitting)

Negative reinforcement: removing something the animal will work to avoid in order to strengthen a behaviour (the threat of correction is removed by walking on a loose lead in the right place)

Positive punishment: adding something the animal will work to avoid to suppress a behaviour (hitting, shocking, shouting etc)

Negative punishment: taking away something the animal will work for to suppress a behaviour (removing a toy, or time out).

I'm not sure if this makes things clearer or muddies the waters :D

So, negative reinforcement's bad? So over-excited, over-boisterous puppies mustn't have their fun stopped by people leaving the room? Surely the whole point of training is to get the message that some behaviours are acceptable and others not. I'm afraid I'm not a person who goes in for the "Never say no" theory, with either children or dogs. :)

I was only pointing out the sciencey bit that a  lot of trainers use now, because no-one except me understood Marianne was correct :).

I don't think it actually makes a differentiation about good and bad - it's not that emotional... Boundaries have to be provided, they are essential.

So for example, as a clicker trainer, I'd use postive reinforcement, some negative punishment (not very often at all) , and extinction.

A trainer who uses a shock collar for example (just been discussing these so they are at the forefront of my mind) would use positive punishment, negative reinforcement, and depending on the trainer maybe positive reinforcement too...

It's probably best avoided on dog forums, it's trainerspeak ;) and using it can lead to a heck of a lot of confusion.

Lindsay
x

It's not the trainerspeak that's confusing but the show of total abhorrence to negative reinforcement.  Like you have said, it definitely has it's place and we all use it from time whether on dogs, cats, children or adults.

Jeangenie wrote:

So, negative reinforcement's bad? So over-excited, over-boisterous puppies mustn't have their fun stopped by people leaving the room? Surely the whole point of training is to get the message that some behaviours are acceptable and others not. I'm afraid I'm not a person who goes in for the "Never say no" theory, with either children or dogs. 

Negative reinforcement isn't you leaving the room in the situation you describe with the pups though JG... see, it gets confusing... took me ages to work it out.

Your reference to stopping the fun of over excited boisterous pups by walking out is negative punishment ...taking away something the puppy will work for (human company and fun) to suppress a behaviour (over excitement and over boisterous behaviour).

Lindsay
x

Now you've got me really muddled! :o I think it's safer for me and the dogs if I stick to what I've found works, without hurting anyone! :)

LOL don't worry, I have been known to completely mix them up before now!!! :P :P
I'd carry on as you are if I were you - you do no harm and a lot of good

Lindsay
x

took me ages to work it out.

Absolutely Lindsay, and you're an intelligent dog lady.  I have great respect for what you do.  But the average pet owner never works it out and continues to have their arm pulled out of its socket by their dog on a harness, strengthening it's shoulders all the time! :(

All these method can work for certain dogs and certain owners.  It's very wrong to insist that only one way of training is right in all cases.  Clicker training is great if the owner's timing is perfect - useless if it isn't.

I went to 2 sets of puppy classes run by a lady who I held in high regard.  She had converted to clicker training, just as though she'd found a new religion! :)  To me it was like The Emperor's New Clothes and I found that it took me soooo much longer to achieve the same results than with the methods that she had taught at her previous classes.  When I asked her about it, she told me to stick to our old way because I have tonality in my voice and I trained my dogs on automatic pilot from the time they were 7 weeks old.  I have never had any training or behavioural problems so it works for me and mine. :)  I'm glad that your way works for you Goldmali - that's what matters. :)

I'm afraid I'm not a person who goes in for the "Never say no" theory, with either children or dogs. :-)

I think we'll just have to agree on that people have different preferences, it's as simple as that, doesn't have to mean one is right and one is wrong -and like I tried to say I was only trying to explain what negative reinforcement is, but Lindasy managed it a million times better. :) I have only started clicker training this year and the difference in the two clicker trained dogs (from puppyhood) is so great to the others, that were trained more traditonally yet without being unpleasant, it's so big that even my husband says he doesn't want me to ever train any dog in any other way again.

Surely a pebble shaken is meant to suprise the dog- same as a chain is - so both could be either positive or negative depending on the following action?

Surely a pebble shaken is meant to suprise the dog- same as a chain is - so both could be either positive or negative depending on the following action?
It could only be positive punishment then -the dog will work to try to avoid it, like Lindsay explained. The dog gets nothing nice out of being surprised by it, some may be scared by it. There's no reward like there is with the sound of a clicker.

But we're not comparing the clicker..

What I am trying to say is that I see no difference between the rattle of a check chain and that of a tin of pebbles. Both are designed to use the element of suprise to distract the dog...