What is the consensus? I wormed my bitch a few days before mating (Drontal plus). The owner of the stud dog doesn't, but her breeder friend doe's

Thanks
Dave

Pregnancy activates the encysted and dormant worms in the bitch, causing them to circulate and infect the whelps before birth. Discuss with your vet whether worming during pregnancy is best for your bitch.

I don't worm during pregnancies. In my opinion the less medication of any sort at that time, the better. After the litter is born, worming is of course very important.
Karen

I usually Drontal Plus my girls when they first come into season then I use Panacur from day 42 to 2 days post whelp.

HTH :)

Hi

I use Panacur to and do it from day 42. I also use the same stuff on the pups at two weeks and have never had a problem because I think there systems are use to it having had it prewelp.

Wendy

i used drontal from day 42 to 3 days post whelp and i didnt see any worms from the pups (wormed with drontal 2/4/6 weeks)

I thought panacur was the ONLY safe wormer to be used during pregnancy?

If you put "pancur" into the "search facility on this site, you will find various champdoggers have had lots of problems over theyears with pancur so some dont use this wormer.  I prefer drontal.   I dont worm a pregnant bitch at all, she gets wormed before mating and then along with the pups when they get wormed.

I wormed my girl pre-mating with panacur.
I also used this on her and on pups at 2 weeks old and nearly lost the full litter.
They had severe sickness and runny poos.They became dehydrated but luckily they were all fine.
I will never ever use panacur on pups again. :( :(

I do the same as others have said, I worm the bitch before mating and then along with the puppies. I use Drontal. I havent used Panacur so I cant comment on whether its any good or not.

Hi
My bitch had a litter of 7 I wormed her with Panacur starting on day 42 of her pregnancy right through to 2 days after she whelped.  I also wormed the puppies at 2/5/&8 weeks had no problems whatsoever my bitch was also wormed at the same time as the puppies.  I followed my vets advice and everything was fine no upset tummies or runny pooh.

I use Drontal before mating, then both mum and pups at 2 weeks etc.

Used Panacur in the past, had 2 out of a litter of 7 spend 2 nights in the vets because they were dehydrated due to upset tummies caused by Panacur......not going to risk it again.

Have used Drontal ever since without problems.

How long do you worm before mating. I worm my regular so never do it right before mating BUT my freind took her bitch to be premated today and the vet gave her a wormer. SHe is going to be mated in 2-3 days. Not my ideal.

See my comments below. Did you worm the bitch and the puppies all at the same time??
The bitch shouldn't be wormed along with the puppies.

I should have said my bitch gets wormed as soon as she is in season, if I am going to mate her.

I worm my bitch with milbemax which lasts for 3 months, so she is always covered throughout her pregnancy. If it were due to run out, I would give it just after mating to cover her througout the whole period and after, the puppies are then wormed with Drontal.

Hi, I also use Milbemax, used to use drontal but my last litter were badly infected and drontal gave them severe tummy upsets, milbemax is better and was advised by the vet to use, one tablet per pup, also use on all my adult dogs, easier to dose too - no messy liquid.:rolleyes:

I'm using panacur 10% at the moment - from 42 to 2 days whelping but was finding it hard getting Noe to eat it. I have now found a solution to the problem if anyone else has the same trouble. Get a piece of bread and drizzle the wormer over the up side, then squirt tomato ketchup over ir then fold in half and give like a treat. Me other girl gets one without wormer so as not to get jealous !!

I use Panacur Liquid 10% on vets recommendation.  I start at day 42 through to 2 days post whelp, then do pups for 3 days at 2wks, 5wks & 8wks Mum is given one dose each time the pups are wormed.  Both my last 2 litters - one a VERY tiny breed, had this treatment, and I suffered no problems at all.  To be fair, keeping to this regime, I've never seen any worms in the poo, and I've often wondered if the ones with problems, are affected simply because of the huge worm burden.  If a bitch is wormed regularly, the burden surely shouldn't be so big?  I actually Drontal a bitch BEFORE she comes into season.  By the way aimibobs, I did the sandwich thing too for Mum!

i have always used panacur and have always had upset tummys,
i now use the milbenax and find its great,
ive also used milbenax on a bitch thats recently been mated and the vet says its ok to do so.

Don't think you should give the bitch a dose when you have given the pups a dose.

The bitch stops getting the wormer a few days post whelping.  IF the puppies are feeding from her and she has had a dose as well as the ones the pup has already had the could cause you some trouble.  I know you have said all has been fine but it isn't as per the manufacturers instructions.

It's usual practice to worm the bitch every time you worm the pups. After all, she's potentially reinfecting herself each time she clears up after them. ;)

Not usual practice to me JG  :-) and it certainly not adviced by the manufactuer. ;-) I would never give it to both on the same day. Whilst the overdose threshold is quite high I wouldn't take the risk myself.

Perhaps this could be a possible reason where people are having trouble with the Panacur. The instructions are very clear that you stop worming the bitch a few days post whelping. I personally think if it was safe to give it to the bitch the same day as giving it to the pups I think it would advice to do this.

Whilst there is a small risk that the bitch could reinfect herself the fact that she was wormed thoroughly just 18 days previously would be enough protection for me and the infestation to the pups would have been so much smaller with her being wormed whilst in whelp.  She is or would them be wormed when the pups were 2 months or when they were weaned.

Just my take on it.

You might be interested in the Guide Dogs procedures for worming (scroll down).

Hi JG. :-)

This completely contradicts Panacur guidelines and they are the actual manufactuers.

We all know that bitches can be wormed with certainly products whilst pregnant (Fenbendazole is regarded as safe for all animals)  Whilst some people don't like to worm bitches when pregnant this can only be expressed as an opinion.

The guidedogs need to probably either seek expert advice or update their site.  There again these are probably not the people I would seek veterinary advice from anyway. ( apologies but I am personally not very pro the guidedog society at the best of times)

I daresay they've found from experience of thousands of litters that this is the regime that best suits their lines. :)

Beat me to it, :-)  I just just going to say from the thousands of litters they have and by their stud dogs then maybe that is what works for them in their opinion.

Not for me though :-)

Sorry Blue, I agree with JG that it is normal practice to worm  dam and pups at the same time.  It doesn't contradict the manufacturers guidelines.  I have in front of me Panacurs complete Dosage Guide.  2 A4 pages of it, that cover everything from Giardia to Lungworm.  The dosage for Pregnant Bitches is a separate chart, recommending day 40 to 2 days post whelp.  The chart for Puppies and Kittens advises worming at 2 weeks, 5 weeks, 8 weeks, and 12 weeks.  Each treatment is for 3 consecutive days.  A bullet point after this chart quite clearly states *Dose the bitch or queen at the same time as the puppies or kittens using the single adult dosage on the reverse of this chart*  This is in addition to worming in whelp.  I still think any adverse reaction is caused by heavily infected puppies.  If the bitch has been wormed according to Panacurs advice, you don't actually get heavily infected puppies.  Panacur advises doing bitch and pups together, as she will reinfect from cleaning puppies.

2 A4 pages of it Where did you get the A4 instructions.

My instructions dont say it 100% I have turned them inside out.

Hi Blue - I wouldn't be without this.  I found that written instructions on the Panacur box weren't so informative.  Leaflets not much better.  Page 6 of the Canine Chemists Direct catalogue has Panacur information on dosing for specific infections such as protozoan parasite (although, to be fair, I ALWAYS discuss with my vet anyway).  He specialises in canines, and I have to say that I have every faith in him, and have always abided by his advice.  But the 2 pages on 82 & 83 that has charted dosage for all the different breeds and covers granules, paste and liquid, has got to be my most thumbed pages!  I guess that Canine Chemists must have got permission to reproduce, because the information is quite clearly stated as being from Hoechst Roussel Vet Limited who state that further information is available on request.  Now, I'm fairly certain that Hoechst are the manufacturers.  Anyway, I can only say that I find it so much easier to have the page in front of me when I'm weighing pups and working out doses, instead of squinting at the tiny print on the box!   By the way, when I worm Mum, I don't do her on the full 3 days as I do the pups.  She gets one full dose on day one, as they recommend.  Jean

Sorry to go back to this but it is one of these things that has bugged me all week. I have not been able to find any information whatsoever that says worm the bitch at the same time. 

Intervet seem to be the people involved with Pancur and I have been able to source their data sheet on panacur.

http://www.intervet.co.uk/Products_Public/Panacur_10__Liquid/090_Product_Datasheet.asp

I just can't get my head around why they would advice stopping giving wormer to the bitch at 2 days post whelping and then say it is OK to give at the same time as giving it to the pups.  To me that is potentially dangerous. Just me ..

Don't mean to drag it up again but I have searched and searched for information to say it is OK and can't find a thing.

Intervet don't make Panacur.  The manufacturers are Hoechst Roussel Vet Limited.  I'm sure that you can approach them, they do say so on their worming information data that further information is available on request.  They are the people to give dosing advice.  And they categorically state that the bitch should be wormed at the same time as pups.  Anyone can get their worming charts.  I wouldn't have just wormed a bitch willy nilly at the same time as pups.  I'm following advice from the experts.  I didn't just get my information from Canine Chemists though.  I use a veterinary canine expert, and followed his instructions on worming to the letter.  I have never seen worms in poo in the 12 years I've been using this vet.  Although I do have large dogs, I only actually breed toys.  Birth weights 4-6oz.  I think that if it was potentially dangerous then whelps so tiny would be affected.  All the people I have spoken to who have had problems, have had tremendous worm burdens in the first place.  Those who had problems wormed pups and bitch together, but the bitch had only been wormed previously prior to mating.  Worming the pregnant bitch during pregnancy can reduce the worm burden by 98%.  You do need to follow the whole regime to the letter.  If you're not worming the bitch for 25 days while she's in whelp, the worm burden will cause the problems, not the Panacur.  Panacur is at present the only licensed wormer for pregnant bitches.  Testing in numerous trials since the 1970's has indicated that there is no ill effect if recommended regime is followed.  In one report of field use 2,817 bitches were treated using the recommended dosage rate and no ill effects were reported in the bitches or their 15,944 puppies.  I do reiterate though - all my adult dogs are wormed very regularly with Drontal, so a bitch would be worm free prior to mating anyway.  All veterinary practices in this country have been advised to tell their clients to now worm canines on a monthly basis.  I don't - I Drontal every 3 months.  I did have random faecal samples, from my adults, taken to the lab last year, just to see if I was daft not to worm monthly.  All my results came back negative.  Panacur kills more types of worms than any other wormer, including Drontal.

HI Keronella, :-)

Please don't think I am nit picking I just can't find the information anywhere other that duplication of what it says on the box and this is exactly as per Intervets guidelines.

Intervet don't make Panacur.  The manufacturers are Hoechst Roussel Vet Limited.

Hoechst Roussel Vet Limited and Intervet are the same people. I have check this today.

I wouldn't have just wormed a bitch willy nilly at the same time as pups.  I'm following advice from the experts.  

I never and wouldn't suggest you had or did. :-)  I just cannot find this information anywhere whatsoever , hence the reason I was asking again.

When I spoke to my vet they said if the company wanted you to worm the bitch then the guidelines would not say 2 days post whelping.  

This was my concern and the only reason I asked again in the first place where you got the information from.

I have never had worms myself either and I always follow the whole regime also to the letter.

It won't be unusual for companies to have different guidelines I have seen this also this week with Frontline spray. One Austrailian site says anytime after 2 days and the American site says from 8 weeks. :-)

If you want to email me, I'm happy to send the details of where you can get a copy of the information, the charts I have are readily available.  The chart is published by Hoechst with an address in Milton Keynes.  The advice to worm bitch DURING pregnancy, and TOGETHER with whelps is actually bullet pointed, as if it is an important part of the treatment.  I do agree with you that the dosage info on the box is somewhat limited.  It doesn't advise on dosage for Giardia.  But the chart gives exactly the same advice that my own vet gave me.

General comment - As Milbemax is coming up a lot here, thought it was worth a quick reminder that it shouldn't be used on Collie breeds as it contains Ivermectin. :D

M.

Yes, you are absolutely correct, Rough Collie's inparticular should never be given it. Only a vet should prescribe this wormer and is another reminder to never buy anything unless vet prescribed.

Unless  the collie in question is genetically clear of course

Of course. :D One would suspect that the vast majority of Collie people don't know about Ivermectin sensitivity though, much less have DNA tested for it.

M.

Mainly the rough & smoooth collie people as the BC peeps are very keen on DNA testing for everything they can ;)

Oh so true ...

M.

If dogs were tested for worms it`d cut out out all this guess work wouldn`t it  :rolleyes:

The trouble is that pregnancy hormones release the encysted worms carried by the bitch into the bloodstream where they cross the placentas and infect the unborn whelps without passing into the bitch's gut and emerging in the faeces. I don't know if blood tests for worms exist.

Regardless, it`s still not an exact absolute this will happen! Testing will!!!

But what testing? Faecal tests won't pick up anything in the bloodstream. Do blood tests for worms exist?

Also, faecal tests will only show up eggs once the worms in the intestines have reached maturity and are breeding or worms themselves if the burden is heavy enough

Hi,
   I've just joined and have been interested in the Panacur10% liquid dosage sheet from your link. Intervet is now a part of Scherring-Plough.  I am
in the United States and I actually called the manufacturer to question them on what the link stated as it seemed like a good link  I spoke to a Dr "B' as he is called and he advised me that Panacur 10% liquid has not been approved in the US, only the granules. Due to ease of dosing puppies, everyone is using it due to the trials of thousands of bitches producing over 15,1000 puppies with no problems, but it is not approved here yet. That will not stop me from using it as I have had excelelnt results with it. He probably had to tell me that for legal reasons but he does all the advise to all kennels fhere in the US for the company.

He did state that in his speeches to kennel clubs, etc, he does not advise the 25 day dosing plan at all. He says to dose the bitch for 3 days  in the area of 50-54 days gestation.  PROVIDING, the bitch does not go on dirt or grass, and that all feces ar picked up and kennel area is clean, that is all that is needed until whelp.  He also said to worm the pups at 3,5 and 8 weeks, along with the bitch.  He did say that pups should not need it PROVIDING she is wormed during the 50-54 date line and she is kept off dirt and grass. It makes sense that if a bitch is not allowed into an area where she could contract worms, then why the need for all the wormer day after day? I believe stongly in keeping my dogs at the best health, and although I do beleive in all the drogs, I also believe that so many drugs are not good putting that much poison into any living thing for that long of a period. I  am NO VET or AUTHORITY but only a 3rd generation kennel owner who has been breeding all my life and I am almost a senior citizen.

I would like to hear what you think of this information.  Seeing your link with the Intervet logo made me what to hear what they had to say. He asked where I got the information. Not thinking at the time, I just told him a link on the Internet, but later wished I had mentined the UK. The UK is a great place.  I LOVE IT and have traveled it extensively as I am retired British Airways staff.

Everyone's situatiojn is differnt I guess and I wanted to hear exactly what the expert would say from the manufacturer. After reading all the posts and seeing the link you provided, I am wondeing if the liquid has been approved in the UK or not. You would not think they would not put out a sheet like that if it has not been or there might be legal ramifications.

>and she is kept off dirt and grass. It makes sense that if a bitch is not allowed into an area where she could contract worms, then why the need for all the wormer day after day?

But who in their right mind is going to keep a bitch on concrete for the weeks of her pregnancy? No, she's going to be going for her usual walks running in the park in the park or in the fields and mixing with other dogs every day. Also the majority of the worms she's passing on to her pups aren't recently picked up but are ones that are already encysted in her body and activated by the pregnancy hormones - so it makes no difference where she goes, she's still going to pass on worms to her unborn pups unless treated.

Dogs can be kept of grass and dirt during pregnancy by walking on sidewalks or keeping them inside. Certainly it's not a bad idea to be more protective of a dog in whelp than non whelp. Who wants thier pups to be born woth worms or anything else?  Who in their right mind does not want what is best for their dog is my question. Worming on the 50-56th day of whelp for 3 days only leaves a two week period until whelping and besides this is a time when dogs usualy take it easier themself as they are larger and uncomfortable...just like people. Who wants to feed poisons every day for 25 days in whelp? What is good abut that? It is certainly bad for intestional flora. Besides, in a kennel situation dogs ARE MUCH BETTER OFF to never touch dirt or grass as that is where they pick up everything. It promotes better health, without a doubt. Ask any vet and they will tell you the same thing.

I'm not sure you are understind what was posted. Sure, she has ones that are already encysted in her body and activated by the pregnancy.  Wormed at 50-56th day will rid her of these and the period of keeping her off grass and dirst is the period from the time of worming on the 50-56th day until whelp. Then if she is not on dirt or grass she has no way to transmit these to her puppies unless he goes on grass or dirt afterward.  It's not that long of a period

>Besides, in a kennel situation dogs ARE MUCH BETTER OFF to never touch dirt or grass as that is where they pick up everything. It promotes better health, without a doubt. Ask any vet and they will tell you the same thing.

Not any of the vets I know and work with. They recommend that dogs are allowed off-lead exercise on natural ground (ie, not pavement-ponding) every day. And pregnant bitches need to be kept very fit - whelping is hard work and a flabby, unfit bitch is very likely to get into difficulties. So plenty of free exercise, on forgiving ground so that they don't damage their joints with the added weight, is far healthier for them.