I am a relatively new dog-walker for the local branch of a national rescue (no names, no pack drill). 

I have been hearing about 'Bonzo' (names have been changed to protect the innocent) a Great Dane X of apparently legendary dominance who, on the advice of the behaviourist, is now in what amounts to solitary confinement.  There is to be no voice, eye or hand contact with this dog, no walks or interaction of any kind for at least a week or until he shows signs of 'knowing his place'.

Now I am a mere beginner in this dog-lark but this horrifies me. Dogs and people are both social species, which is one of the reasons we generally get on so well (or so I thought) and very few people's temperaments are improved by total isolation - in fact isn't it regarded as a method of torture? 

Or am I just being a big soppy dog-bothering ignoramus who should go and read a few more books - a little learning being a dangerous thing and all that...

Any views? 

PS I have never seen 'Bonzo' so can't offer any doglish insights.

poor bonzo
"regarded as a method of torture"  I would see it as this. I know of a dominant rottie, and he's always been that way, but he was never shut away and left. I don't know enough to make any comments of use, but i feel sorry for the poor lad-he's probably completely misunderstood. Awww.

Is Bonzo dominant with other dogs or humans? I only ask out of curiosity. Not that that should warrant him put away like that in either case, how sad :(

Sorry, but I suggest an anonymous call to the RSPCA...

Well not a behaviourist I would use, what possible  outcome does she/he expect to to come of this treatment.  Dogs live in the here and now, they dont do future or past, they dont reason or reflect,  so sending him to solitary confinment is going to teach him what???????    

I can't imagine what a week in solitary is supposed to achieve that isn't going to be achieved in a much shorter time  :rolleyes: Depression and confusion come to mind tho :(
If the dog is 'dominant' surely there are better ways of managing it??  who has decided the dog is dominant? dominant to dogs or humans? sometimes a dog can appear dominant yet not be ;) 
Even if a dog is dominant there are ways of re-educating the dog without totally depriving it of interaction and company.

>Sorry, but I suggest an anonymous call to the RSPCA..<

Yep,same here!
I can only imagine this method of 'torture' would be doing only harm,and no good :( I would also give the behaviorist association a call and drop this persons name,tell them what he's doing.Perhaps they'll have some info on him.

I've been trying to look at this post in a different way to try and understand how this would work, not being a behaviourist just someone in sinc with how dogs think and work, I still can't work it out.

Just as an example:

When we have pups, especially teaching bite inhibitions when a pup bites and OW!! does not work a pup is sent to solitary for a few minutes in another room or a crate, then let out , if it does it again same happens until it clicks that biting hard is a no no. Same with other behaviours this can be a good method and the pup will learn, 'if I do that I am sent away', (this works with minutes though) and is a way of teaching.

A dog being on it's own in solitary for a week is torture, a dog would go mad if locked up alone. This dog no doubt will howl and scratch, perhaps walk around and around in it's cage?

How can this dane be being taught anything? How does it know why it is in solitary? This is not behaviour correction, as it is not even being pointed out to the dog why it is there. Perhaps if dominant and then put in the cage for a few minutes would teach, though not a methold I would use really for dominance.

No doubt when finally approached it will go potty and be oh so grateful, but what has it been taught, does it know it should not now be dominant  I would never train a dog like this, it serves no purpose as far as I can see apart from the human in charge getting a kick out of being lord and master to the dog. Maybe that is the point.

Yes, actually this is the point isn't it to make it so miserable, so worn down, to feel totally out of control and to now know that the human is in control that it is worn down and quite submissive when released, but would this work long term and what an utterly cruel way to get the message across. :-(

If you feel that strongly about it then why can't you say where this rescue is. Also even if you are new to this and you have strong feelings that it isn't right then you should have a word with them and ask what the real reason is behind it. In my opinion it isn't right and someone should be told.

Thanks to all for replying.

Jumbuck - I am keeping my powder dry at the moment. I am a very new volunteer and would rather gather a bit more clout before embarking on any campaigns for change.  If I started now I would gather nil support, be ostracised by other staff/volunteers and not change Bonzo's situation in the slightest.  Also - who am I to talk?  The first thing I would be met with is 'What are your qualifications?' Answer: None (in the canine world at least).  However I will continue to observe and analyse until the time is ripe. I am no a shrinking violet so don't worry, the time will inevitably come.

(BTW: a call to the RSPCA?  How ironic!)

after Daisy has virtually been in solitary for over a month now, solitary will not solve anything, even though Daisy is now physically better we have now have to sort her mentally, she had limited contact to prevent spreading of the mange to the other dogs and this has turned her into a bored dog, a bored dog that has resulted in wrecking everything that is put to help relieve her boredom, when there is nothing left she barks continuously, this however will now be able to be sorted as in two weeks time she will be out of her 'prison sentence' and will once again be able to live life to the full

solitary confinement is not the way to go

tanya

Each RSPCA rescue centre is managed as a seperately run charity so a call to the RSPCA help line itself would not be out of the question, infact it seems the best course of action to me as they could very easily have a word with them about their methods.

Thanks for that Isabel; I will let you know how I go on.

I have no qualifications as a behaviourist so I really could not say if there is any merit to the methods being used or not but hopefully the RSPCA will have the necessary qualified people to check this out with.

It's a horrid waste of time to treat a dog like that.

Ironic that the dog is being further damaged by the system in place to protect it in the first place!

Please do keep us posted of the outcome!

I know that I'm not qualified nor know the circumstances first hand but I do so hate this outdated dominance theory nonsense!

What on earth is any dog to learn from the solitary confinement described? Presumably that its "place" is a cold, hard world where humans are to be mistrusted. And I can't see how any dog can benefit from that sort of lesson.

It's difficult, though, to always know everything that is going on when it comes second hand.  For instance the person relating this to M-in-B may have got the wrong end of the stick.  Perhaps the behaviourist has merely asked that the staff distance themself to enable her to develop a stronger working relationship with the dog but the staff member was not given that extra detail and has jumped to their own conclusions as to what they are up to.  Who knows, I just know it would not be the first misunderstanding created by hearsay :)  What ever it is, if the RSPCA take the trouble to contact the branch perhaps the whole thing can be looked at with the full story and assess it for themselves and if it is as told I expect they will offer their advise on the situation ;)

What are the assessents of the dog based on?

If the dog is in kennels just how dominant (hate that word! ) can it be? is it just refusing to sit to have the lead on, or pushing for dinner, or what? Do you have any more info on the dog's behaviour? :)

There are some behaviourists who would suggest ignoring a dog (eg 24hour ignore) but this would be in an owner/dog relationship and for a very specific reason, after there would be lots of building up and a deepening of the bond between dog and owner. This should always be the ultimate plan, at the end of the day.

Try to find out a lot more about what's behind it all, and if there is a specific reason. I'd be interested, as would everyone I'm sure, to hear more.

Lindsay
x

To find out more you could say you were interested in the behaviourist's work and could you chat with her to learn a little more about what she is doing with this particular dog.

I am nowhere near experienced as any of you guys but even I dont think this can do any good.  I went to a training class last week for aggressive dogs and the trainer spent time explaining the signs of a dominant dog which a lot of the ones there showed but at no point were they recommending segregation - in fact they were all allowed off lead to play.  I add in a secure area and muzzled.  I think lock them away is a very easy thing to say - must have been quick money for a behaviourist to turn up and say that!  I thought the idea was that they helped you with how you manage the dog in your situation not recommend take it out of the situation and ignore it!  Sorry - I'm rambling I know but it disgusts me that people I would trust because I am not experienced could recommend such things - how many other dogs has this course of action been recommended for - could be loads for all we know?  I'm just glad I found this site with lots of 'second opinions' available to me at any time.

  

Hm! sorry, are you saying that it is the RSPCA that have done this?

We have the words 'National Rescue' in the first post???  I don't blame her for not saying, all the facts are not known by Muttsinbrum herself even and to be honest I think we all feel like phoning up and reporting it, and if we knew where! some of us proberbly would, so it is proberbly best for her not to say anything as everything is just hearsay at present, we could all do more harm than good, not really knowing all the facts, our opinions on what we know are all leaning the same way.

Absolutely Carrington - I don't have all the facts and maybe not any. 

This info didn't come from a member of staff (they don't seem to have much to do with us volunteers - too busy) but the 'senior' volunteer and of course she may have merely overheard this in passing. Which is why a) I don't want to go off half-cocked and b) I genuinely want to know if there is any merit in such a strategy.  There are several methods of dealing with attachment disordered children that are described as 'counter-intuitive' (i.e. not what you feelyou should be doing) but which are ultimately both effective and healing. This may be thinking in this case - things change all the time.

I will let you know how things turn out - but please remember I only volunteer once a week!

Whatever the reasons - from what you've said Muttsinburm, we are only talking about a week when the dog is in isolation - not a lifetime!   If a dog who will not focus and is continually demanding attention only gets attention when it is behaving in a positive manner, I can see how this might work.   The dog is much more likely to focus on even the smallest amount of a reward - such as eye contact - if it's spent a short time without it.

I can't believe you have just said that.:rolleyes:

At the aggressive dog class I went to - avoiding eye contact was they key - not solitary.  And I wouldnt have said 1 week was a short time.....