Both my labs went in for their hips checked (great scores came back) unfortunately the vet put them both in teh same cage until xray my bitch was in season.  we took her to the vets 28 days later and yes she is having pups.  The vets have said they will do everything to help and I have also been in touch with the males original breader, who has given great advice.  My father has always bred dogs but unfortunately died earlier this year so cannot ask his advice now.  This will be my first litter and I am anxious.

I would be taking the vet to court . :(

Hi welcome :)

What an awful thing to happen. Did you not tell the vet she was in season?
well whats done is done and I'm sure you will get advice/help when needed :)

Dee

Before giving you any advice, can I ask some questions?

1.    How old is the bitch?   I take it she is over 12 months, to be hipscored.

2.    Have you got the hipscores back from the BVA, or are you going on the vet's opinion - if this is the vet that had them crated together, then I wouldn't be too happy.

3.     What breed are they?

It's just to get a better idea of where you are coming from.   Frankly, the idea of Christmas puppies appalls me - and you will see from one of my posts, I've had to take Freya for the "morning after" injections because of the timing.

Margot

my bitch is 2 1/2 and both dogs are yellow labs.  hip scores are back and they are both low.  I can assure you they will not be going until well after christmas, 

hip scores back within 28 days?   That must be a first !!!  What were they?

Bitch 5/4  dog.4/3

...............and the elbows and eyes, both tests recommended by the KC for this breed?

Excellent scores!  

But I would still question the wisdom of going ahead with the pregnancy unless you can be sure that you will be able to call upon someone to give hands-on assistance at the actual birth.   I'd advise you to get The Book of the Bitch (available on Amazon) and make it your bedtime reading for the next five weeks.   Also - if you are in work - make sure you book a week's holiday (at least) - or alternate between you and OH for holiday for between 2-3 weeks once the puppies arrive.

And start working on a puppy questionnaire/waiting list now - remembering that you can't advertise on the Forum - you have to have advanced membership of Champdogs to advertise on the webpages - too many people think that that can "advertise" a litter in a roundabout way on here - those threads get pulled PDQ ;)

Margot

Surely you can't go back to work after just 2/3 weeks?

at home 24 hours per day, i'm lucky that way, I have also  got homes for 3 of the dogs to family.  We have always had labs and as I said previously my dad was the bright one.  The males original breeder has said that the bitch can go there if necessary.  

It always amazes me when people say this.  No member of my family would pass my vetting procedure just like that because I would instantly think, if you wanted a dog so much and had the necessary lifestyle at this point how is it you have not got one before, how is it you suddenly want one when I have one to home.........perhaps cheaply?

wrong, we have always had labs and my 3 family members now have chiildren that have now grown up and left the nest and i know i can trust my family if you can't yours that your problem

You are missing my point it's not a question of trust it just does not make sense.  When you want a dog you set about getting one not just wait around for a relative to have an accidental mating.  If they do, you have to question how much they really wanted one.   The other thing to watch out for is the number of people who say, sounding quite earnest, I would really want a puppy from that bitch.  In some instances it is just flattery, when push comes to shove they drop out of the deal.  Genuine, away from family and friends, enquiries are far more reliable in my experience.  They also allow you to call the shots in refusing if something does not meet all your criteria such as garden security, working hours, age of children etc which is often difficult when they are family or friends.

If she is 29 days she will whelp around about 13th October, the puppies will be 11 weeks old on Boxing day.  Not sure how many you can expect in a labrador litter but I hope you have a large house and a local fire crew willing to come round and clean up the mess every morning :)

Purdey's last litter was 14, we reared 10.   We've always had between 8 and 11 lab pups in a litter - and before anyone shoots me down in flames, I'm talking about 7/8 litters in 35 years :D

Margot

when she had her scan he could see 4 for definate but he asked us to take her back at the end of September for another scan

My vet said that, 3 or 4, she had 10

I believe puppies can be medically aborted up to 42 days but your vet will be able to advise.  There are a very large number of labrador litters born every year I don't think bringing an unplanned one into the world would be helpful to all the others desperately seeking good homes.  What age is she, another consideration before, maybe, deciding to have the litter?
If you advised your vet she was in season I would insist on getting the treatment for free if you didn't maybe they will do it as a goodwill gesture.

the vet has been very good about it and no fees have been charged.  I did inted to breed eventually once I had learned more.  I have another appointmet at the vets next week

What sort of vet didnt notice 2 dogs getting wound up and about to breed while in a cage, or a tie or anything infact to tell them what was going on ?

he vet has been very good about it and no fees have been charged

Why did your vet agree to hip score a bitch in season ? Medically it is better to hip score bitches midway between seasons, just spoken to my vet I use for hip scoring & she will not X ray for scores in or near seasons no matter what ages the dogs are

TBH your vet hasn't been negligent unless you instructed him not to crate them together explicitly.

You are very lucky as a first time breeder to have matched pedigrees in your dogs & for your dog to be the very best match for your bitch is also very very lucky

Best of luck with the litter there are 322 litters on the KC site alone & we are not into the Xmas puppy season yet

I disagree, unless i asked for 2 of my dogs to share a crate or kennel then id not expect them to, how would a vet know they got on ?

I think it's reasonable for the vet to expect to be told of any reason why two dogs from the same household could not be put in together.

Dogs  that might get along could behave different if they are left or stressed, if they are seperate then nothing can happen, there is no risk to either

I feel it should be the other way, unless i ask for 2 of mine to share a crate id expect them kept seperate, if in this case they had been then we wouldnt have this thread

I have used this vet for 10 years and never have my dogs been put in teh same cage we don't even carry our dogs in teh same cage in our car. 

Had you told the vet she was in season?

yes.  Young assistant took them from the xrays and put them in same cage.

Well, I suppose it is hard to imagine within an hour or two of an anaesthetic :rolleyes:.

the dogs go in at 8am and no dog can be collected before 6pm in the evening.

the dogs go in at 8am and no dog can be collected before 6pm in the evening

Do vets still do this with hip scoring ? I go with my dogs for X ray at a pre determined time, stay whilst they have their pre med & X ray(having a coffee etc whilst the dogs are X rayed not in with them)have a chat with vet whilst X rays developed & they shown X rays & given(an extremely accurate)guessimate of score whilst dogs come out of GA & then go home ususally within an hour ! Ten hours at the vets for a hip score

I was never actually shown the x-ray but the vwet said they looked ok

I'm amazed that they were physically able to mate when they were recovering from a GA!

I think that one wants writing up in the BVA journal :)

they didn't have anethstetic they were just givren calmants

A litter before even you yourself felt you knew enough does not seem like a good idea to me.   Have your dogs done well at shows or in the field and have knowledgable people advised you they are a suitable match?  I think I would be going back to see the vet as soon as possible and getting this stopped if you cannot even reach a basic criteria for the justification of breeding one more litter of labradors.

both dogs are gun dogs bought from good reputable breeders who have also trained them for me.  As I said in my thread the males original owners trained him in teh field we did not purchase until he was older and they have been really good with us. 

It's not just being trained but demonstrating that they are good, generally by being placed and receiving awards, which justifies their use in the gene pool, I would say.  Why was he sold to a pet home so young?

Please stedy on, Linda is asking for advice after what has happened, it's no good getting on at her now!

I think that Linda is getting very good advice.  It's never a good idea to produce puppies without being fully informed of the relevant information.:)

But she didn't actually plan to produce the puppies... it was an accident.

Bit harsh this thread and I think Linda is handling it really well!

I agree - if I had found that my dog was about to produce puppies (totally unplanned and prepared for) I'd be more than happy for family members to have some of them. Far better than try to find 'better' owners in a very limited time scale and with no experience of vetting them. Sometimes, needs must. Positive help and advice would be far better than the negative.

Daisy

I guess we will just have to disagree that pointing out that she does not have to continue with this accident in the light of the labrador situation is the negative choice.

Wasn't actually the bit of negative advice I had at the forefront of my mind :)

Daisy

  You've stumped me Daisy :)  Can't think what else can be construed as negative, PM me, I need to know :)

That might be true if it was a fait accompli but as it is not inevitable that the litter must be produced it is worth getting her to consider fully the sense and justication of it.  As you say, she is asking advise and that is mine.

I am feeling a little sorry that I now asked for advice.

Sorry that you feel that way Linda - but you did ask.

You will get excellent information from the first two posts under the heading BREEDING - the first entitled WARNING and the second entitled SHOULD I BREED FROM MY PET BITCH.  This is good, dispassionate advice.

You may be getting some disapproving vibes from us ..... this is because we are all so passionate about not breeding unwanted, unplanned litters.  Labradors and Staffies are the most widely (and sadly badly bred) dogs in this country, with over 30,000 labrador puppies registered with the KC alone each year - and heavens knows how many un-registered litters.    They are also the dogs that are most likely to end up in Rescues (ask Mattie, from NW Lab Rescue just how many labs come through their doors in a year).

They say the path to hell is paved with good intentions.......

Margot

46,000 KC reg last year & probably an equal number not KC reg :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I stand corrected :) - so Linda, you see there are more than 50% more than the figure I gave (which is probably for 2004) - so you must see why we are concerned.

Margot

BTW - where did you get your bitch scanned so clearly at 26-28 days ?