where is the choice for those on a lower income?

My income was so low that I didn't pay any income tax for 12 years.  Is that low enough for you?  And I claimed no benefits except the extra £4 per week or whatever it was for being a single parent family.  I worked part time and changed my situation according to my priorities.  I get fed up hearing what people can't do.  If I can do it - anyone can do it, if they don't keep making excuses and make whatever other sacrifices are necessary.  Every decision has a cost.  Every positive has a negative.
It would be nice if we could all have everything that we want, but that's not the real world. :(

My income was so low that I didn't pay any income tax for 12 years.

Well I must be missing something here - how were you able to choose an area and move to there?

If I can do it - anyone can do it, if they don't keep making excuses and make whatever other sacrifices are necessary.

I agree if people set their minds to it and want something badly enough, then they can go and get it.   OK you say you were on a low income - but then how were you able to move?

Your daughter passed the test to get into the grammar school, but if she had only been able to go to the local comp. would you still feel as happy?  From what you say about your local comp. I don't think so. 

but everyone still has a choice - to make the best of themselves as they are from where they are ......

I agree, but in a system where everyone (who pays tax) is paying for an education system, why should they not all receive the same quality of education.  I know not everyone can have the same, I know everyone can make sacrifices, and I also know that if I was in a position where my child had to go to a crap school, I would do everything in my power to change that.  I just do not think it is right that some people do not have access to a good education for their children!!

The whole education system is a vicious circle - at least here it is :( All the comps in our town (there are 6, I think) are poor. Most parents who care about their children's education try to get them into the school just over the border into the next county where the schools are so much better - but it needs dedication, perseverance and MONEY to pay the fares or drive the extra 8/9 miles each way and the time to sit in traffic james :D Because a lot of the brighter children or those with dedicated parents don't go to the schools, they don't get the good exam results, so people don't want to send their children there and good teachers don't want to teach there. It's been like it for 25 years since they took away the sixth forms. Several of our friends used to teach in schools here - they all left when the sixth forms went. The sixth form college/community college that replaced the sixth forms has a terrible record too and very poor facilities (at least, I know, for science subjects). What do parents do ?? Who is brave enough to chance their child's future and use the local school :( I'm afraid that we didn't :(

Daisy

Who is brave enough to chance their child's future and use the local school  I'm afraid that we didn't

Most parents who care about their children's education try to get them into the school just over the border into the next county where the schools are so much better - but it needs dedication, perseverance and MONEY to pay the fares or drive the extra 8/9 miles each way and the time to sit in traffic james

Exactly so the children who do go to the local school are those whose parents are either not bothered, or can't afford to send them to a different school.

I realise I am lucky (I say lucky because I was able to get a good job, buy a house, car, etc), although not wealthy I can afford to drive my son to a better school.  Shame others can't realise some are not as fortunate. :(

Incidentally, the cost of driving lessons is also out of reach of some people.

Incidentally, the cost of driving lessons is also out of reach of some people.

They always have been.  I had to save for mine from my Saturday/holiday job when I was 17 and my daughter had already earned enough money to buy her own car and her driving lessons by the time she was 17.

There is no such thing as REAL poverty these days - it's all relative poverty!

There is no such thing as REAL poverty these days - it's all relative poverty! 

This is what I meant by 'Let them eat cake' .  How can you say that?  Maybe where you live, but go to some areas and you will see it first hand.

Have you seen how cheap Tesco Value cake is? ;)

Seriously, how many children do you see going to school without shoes nowadays? How many families think they've had a good day when they've had a single meal rather than fasting?

Have you seen how cheap Tesco Value cake is?

LOL

Seriously, how many children do you see going to school without shoes nowadays? How many families think they've had a good day when they've had a single meal rather than fasting?

I admit I personally don't know of any families that poor, but I do know some that have to work long hours just to be able to provide the bare minimum.  They do not have anything they can sacrifice!

That quote is attributed to someone fabulously wealthy. so hardly appropriate to apply it to Val :rolleyes:  I agree there is no real poverty in the UK.  Everyone has everything they need in terms of nutrition, shelter and clothing if they want it, children especially.

That quote is attributed to someone fabulously wealthy. so hardly appropriate to apply it to Val   I agree there is no real poverty in the UK. 

You do not always have to have the same circumstances to have the same attitudes surely? And it seems it is not only Val that has this attitude. :)

Everyone has everything they need in terms of nutrition, shelter and clothing if they want it, children especially

But we are talking about education.:rolleyes:

Some people in this country feel it is important enough that they even try to provide for children in other countries.  I am not even talking of anyone providing for anyones else's children.  Some low wage earners do pay tax - so they are paying for an education system they are not getting.

>But we are talking about education.

OK, I add education to my list of what every child gets in the UK :), again if people don't want the basic they should either prioritise to pay for something more to their ideals or consider whether they can afford to have and raise a child.

>Some low wage earners do pay tax - so they are paying for an education system they are not getting.

  They are entitled to state schooling.

They are entitled to state schooling

But if it is not providing an education they are being short changed surely?

Did you vote for the party that you believe thinks education is important? And if the quality of education provided by the state isn't high enough, where have your protests been directed? I complained to my MP.

Unfortunately, some children (or their parents really) get the education they deserve because the children are not supported by the parents and cause disruption at school, need lots of teacher input re: behaviour, extra help to read and write which could have been given at home by parents who are too busy at the pub etc etc etc etc etc etc It makes my blood boil that so many parents let their children down so badly by not encouraging their education :( How many parents actively encourage non-attendance by molly coddling children or taking time off to go shopping etc .

The education is there for everyone - unfortunately a lot just don't want it and their actions detrimentally affect the others. How much better would things be if all children actually attended school every day, paid attention, tried their hardest and behaved :) Decent teachers might actually be attracted into the profession :)

Daisy

Bring back the truant officer!! :D

Trouble is with human rights, they wouldn't be able to make them go to school! :(

>You do not always have to have the same circumstances to have the same attitudes surely?

Why not? To think otherwise is to believe that stealing from someone because they have something you can't afford to buy is acceptable. Poor people can have the same credo of honesty as rich people.

>Some low wage earners do pay tax - so they are paying for an education system they are not getting.

Sorry, you've lost me. The state education system is paid for by all tax payers, whether or not they have children in school currently, or even at all. If anyone has a gripe about the quality of that education then they must take it up with the people responsible: the Council, the LEA, their MP, the Government. The less tax paid by everyone, the less money available to spend. Our choice. And if people, after they've paid that tax, wish to spend more on education why on earth shouldn't they? The clever thing would be to improve the quality of state education so that it surpasses that provided by the private sector. ;)

> The clever thing would be to improve the quality of state education so that it surpasses that provided by the private sector. 

As it is in some European countries where the children being educated privately tend to be those that are failing in the state run schools.

You do not always have to have the same circumstances to have the same attitudes surely?

Why not? To think otherwise is to believe that stealing from someone because they have something you can't afford to buy is acceptable.

How did you arrive at that?  Surely people's circumstances can vary enormously, but they can still have the same attitudes to life, etc.? Simply because someone is poor for example does not mean that their attitude to theft is any different from someone who is very wealthy, even though their circumstances are very different.  Surely you cannot disagree with this?

Sorry, you've lost me

I will say it again - some low wage earners do pay tax, so they are paying for an education  they are not getting - if the school local to them is not providing an education for their children, that is not right.

The clever thing would be to improve the quality of state education so that it surpasses that provided by the private sector.

Well I am sure there are some state schools that do already surpass some private schools.

And if people, after they've paid that tax, wish to spend more on education why on earth shouldn't they?

I don't remember saying anything to the contrary on this?

>if the school local to them is not providing an education for their children, that is not right.

The school must be providing an education.  If anybody leaves with any qualifications the education is there to be had.

>some low wage earners do pay tax, so they are paying for an education  they are not getting - if the school local to them is not providing an education for their children, that is not right.

But there is a school, and it does have teachers? So if the children who leave are illiterate and innumerate it's the parents' responsibility to organise change because it's Law that every child is entitled to an education. If the councillors aren't abiding by the law then the local taxpayers must oust and replace them. It all depends how much the parents want change.

Maybe where you live, but go to some areas and you will see it first hand.

I now live in Somerset (I've moved again to a cheaper area to live in now that my daughter is married :D) in a town where there are no well paid jobs - all minimum wage and a lot of unemployment.  I see no children without shoes as there were in my day.  I see no children thin through lack of food.  I see no children with torn or darned clothes.

I have also worked in some poorer areas of Yorkshire and again saw no children malnourished, unclothed etc.  This is a relatively wealthy country where people are now always expecting more to be provided by others.

Maybe you're a lot younger than some of us on the board who have seen just how things have changed over the years?

people are now always expecting more to be provided by others.

But our taxes (which most of us pay) are partly for education and if some children are not getting an education I personally, do not think this is right.

Maybe you're a lot younger than some of us on the board who have seen just how things have changed over the years?

Well I haven't personally seen anyone with no shoes, etc, but have been told of this (not that I'm that young unfortunately :)).  I don't believe though that advancement comes from thinking 'well we have it better than what it was', but always striving for more.  Surely you, from all you have said, also think this?

people are now always expecting more to be provided by others

Again I agree there are some people like this.  But I still believe that education should be a basic right in this country.  I would be extremely miffed if, as the law states I have to send my child to school (I know you can home educate) to be educated, my child then never got that education!  I can't see why people are disagreeing really.

People on here have complained in the past how they don't really get much for the amount of tax they pay.  I am just arguing the same case for lower wage earners - and before anyone says it, I know they don't pay as much as some, but that is how our system works.

>But I still believe that education should be a basic right in this country.

It is :)

Have you ever watched, on television, schooling in poor, third world countries ?? What always strikes me is the standard of behaviour and the hard work and attention that virtually, every, child gives :) Often the school has very, very little in the way of facilities, yet the children manage to get a good basic education at the very least. Why - because the children know how important and education is and how fortuante they are to get it - even if it is at a basic level. What does this teach us, CDers ??? Perhaps we should be concentrating far more on the behaviour and work ethic of our children here in the UK, than moaning about the standard of education ???

Daisy

To be fair, in Africa at least, corporal punishment is fairly lavishly used   although I agree the children understand, perhaps, what is at stake.

Is it coincidence that the educational standards started to fall in this country when discipline wasn't enforced so rigorously either in school or outside it?

Ooooh I don't know.  There is discipline and there is discipline, African school children can often expect pretty harsh physical treatment.  
I think discipline can be maintained in other ways though such as the insistance on showing respect for teachers.

And how do you 'insist' on respect nowadays? You can talk till you're blue in the face but you can't use any sort of force.

Isabel, how are you going to insist on showing respect when the child has never been taught to show anyone any respect ???

Daisy

I agree it is more difficult when they have had no grounding from the parents but if the rules from day one at a school are to call teachers by the correct title, for instance, the process can at least begin then.  As I said earlier in this thread sink schools have been saved by the appointment of competent heads so we know it is possible with the most difficult pupils.

I think that you are a little optimistic, Isabel :) Once children are used to having no/little discipline etc, it will take more than a nice teacher asking them politely to behave :)

Daisy

By the time children start school (4 or 5) they have already had enough influence from parents to ruin them for the teachers. Training for children needs to start from day 1 IMHO , much the same as for puppies :)

If you could HEAR the children of age 11 that my husband has to deal with on a daily basis ..the abuse they hurl that they consider normal and the disrespect ...it is truly gobsmacking......and of course, let's not forget that Teachers hands are firmly tied as to the *punishments * they hand out ;)

Too true, Mel :( :( :( You have only to look at the programme about the nanny to see the appalling behaviour of some four year olds :( :( :( Where did they learn to swear I wonder ????

Daisy

I can't remember the name of the woman who came out of retirement to take charge of the school where Phillip Lawrence was stabbed.  She totally turned the place round from a sink school to a desired one.  There was a recent programme about her.  She did a bit of nice polite asking :) but much more along the lines of motivation stuff but certainly not corporal punishment.  I have read articles about other such leaders, mostly from the private sector :) that have achieved similar, so, therefore, the potential for any group of apparently hopeless children to be redeemed has been demonstrated more than once.

I think that the point I was trying to make is that it would be far better if the children came to school (as, in general, they did a long time ago) expecting to behave and respect the teacher :) If a bit of corporal punishment, as a threat, is necessary I would have no problems with that :) My husband attended an East End secondary modern in the late fifties/early sixties and remembers well the respect that they gave an ex-army teacher who picked up and threw a desk across the classroom - tough kids from tough homes, but they knew what respect was :D :D Most parents expected the teachers to dish out any necessary discipline to their children. Some children now don't even know what discipline is :(

Daisy

No, I would not like to see a return to corporal punishment, especially now it has been demonstrated that it is not necessary.  I think it is one thing allowing parents to smack the children that they love but quite another to allow someone else.
I think home life does lack discipline in so many cases, too few decent male role models for a start, but I don't think we can do anything now from that angle of things.  However, as some "superteachers" have demostrated that they can reverse it from the enducation angle it seems to me the answer is to provide the resources for better training for other teachers to understand and learn their methods thus, perhaps, raising children who will make better parents and hopefully tackle this cycle our society seems to have found itself in.

> However, as some "superteachers" have demostrated that they can reverse it from the enducation

But, they shouldn't have to :) Teachers should only have to teach and the 'super' teachers are very, experienced and that can't be taught to trainee teachers :)

Daisy

No, the junior teachers are not going to have the experience immediately but then they don't have to, it will be many years before they are vying for top positions but meantime they could be taught to apply the methods that these superteachers have found so effective.  I don't agree they should only be teaching if you mean merely a subject or two they are all involved in developing children within the school from the outset including motivating, teaching self worth etc.

Stephen could be a Super Teacher ...he actually talks to and listens to the children in his classes, he tries to instill some self discipline in them and the children love him  ...however...the school have told him he needs to stop it :D He has to be more disciplined and concentrate more on getting the grades up (his grades are up anyway ;) ) He needs to have a silent classroom :D

It is not down to just teachers ...it needs to start at home ..respect and listening ...Stephen gets paid a pittance for the work he does and then he gets slated by his bosses as well LMAO

Sad, sad world we live in ;)

But it is the job of parents to raise their children in a way that is acceptable to society and the blame should not be put on the shoulders of teachers. If all parents were to raise their children to believe that education is not only important but a necessity then the majority of problems that schools face today would not be an issue.

Teachers are there to educate our children but so many of them spend the majority of their time policing rather than educating due to a lack of parenting abilities or interest from some parents. Yes there are superteachers - as in any profession some will be outstanding  and there will also be some who are not the best example of their profession at all - BUT the discipline for learning is something that is grounded at home and then expanded upon by the teaching profession and is not the sole responsibility of schools.

Parents have to be more accountable for their children - after all a dog's behaviour is not blamed on the training class it has attended but on the lack of input from it's owner.

Here here , I couldn't agree more if I tried :)

The government have taken more and more power and responsibility away from parents and now we are suffering the consequences

I don't disagree with you two, I just don't think we will ever have that much influence over how so many parents behave.  I don't think the Govenment is to blame, though, by taking away power and responsibility from the parents, in fact I don't really understand what you think has been done there   It is simply society has changed too much which started long before this present Government.  If anyone is to blame it think it is rather more likely to fall into the lap of the womens liberation brigade .  As I say too few male role models for a start.  I think the only chance now is to improve the way the next generation of parents are educated.
I don't blame the teachers as they have it now, either, Mel, as I say I think we need to give them much more resources to improve their skills in handling this lack of discipline and motivation so I suppose we could blame the Government on the other hand would they get elected if they wanted to put taxes up to pay for those resources in which case we are all to blame :)

Whilst I understand what you are saying, I don't agree with you .....the responsibility for children lies firmly on the shoulders of parents and I speak as a parent here ..it is up to us to teach our children how to behave in a responsible way, not teachers

Until parents wake up to the fact that their little darlings are actually out of control, spoilt little darlings who have no respect for anyone over the age of 15 then we will continue getting worse and worse

Agree 100 %, Mel :) Unfortunately, if the parents don't know how to behave themselves, what hope is there for their children :(

Daisy

>if the parents don't know how to behave themselves, what hope is there for their children

Exactly, we need to look at ways of working without the cooperation of these parents because, in so many cases, we are simply not going to get it but the children are, well some :rolleyes:, still in the education system and have the potential for influence.

Oh yes, I agree parents are fully responsible for their childrens behaviour and teachers should not have to take it all on but I think we need to be realistic here.  I think there is far more likelyhood of achieving some changes in society via a group of already responsible, intelligent and educated individuals than coming at it from the other end and trying to get the sort of parent that is creating the problems on board.  That is just the reality of it surely.

I do think that it is a problem that society should be tackling as a whole. Not only are the problems in our schools getting worse but these problems are being seen in many other areas as well. Anti-social behaviour in all walks of life is on the increase and it has to be dealt with now. Not an easy one to deal with I know but it needs to be checked before it spirals out of control.

At the same time they have also taken all meaningful disciplinary power away from the teachers as well. Being reduced to telling an abusive 15-year old that he's a naughty boy and must go and stand in the corner isn't going to do a lot to bring him to heel. :rolleyes: Utter madness. Teaching must be hell now, and I'm very sorry for the poor teachers who only want to do their job.

And are the parents of the 15 year old going to be at all upset when/if they find out he has misbehaved ??? :(

Daisy

Most probably not in the slightest. Going by what I've learned they'd probably back him all the way - that's where the problems start. If the parents ensure that they've taught their children the right mindset for learning then the teachers could do their job too.