friend phoned me last night and asked if this can be done, and i honestly did not know, there where three in the class the judge placed 1st and then witheld 2nd and third she said there was a bit of an uproar outside the class when he did this,but she said she did not know the outcome as she was getting ready to go into the ring with her dog, so i thought i would ask on hear,
i know that they can withold but what are the rules governing this , if any
carolann

Yes, the judge is perfectly at liberty to withold prizes, although this is very rarely done in a class as the idea is to place the dogs in front of you in the order in which, in your opinion, they most closely conform to the breed standard. CC's are a different matter as the criteria for awarding a CC is that it should be awarded to a dog, (or bitch), which in the judges opinion is worthy of the title of champion.IMO judges who withold prizes in ordinary classes are power crazed meglomaniacs and appalling show-offs.

As Saxon says, yes they can withhold for lack of quality/temperament issues. I believe that if third place is withheld, no further places can be given - someone will correct me if I'm wrong. Very rarely done these days, so does create a bit of an uproar.

Some judges will withhold in Crufts qualifying classes, as they are aware other judges will probably qualify the dog but don't want it going with their name on it. Having seen some of the dogs at Crufts which I wouldn't even consider good looking pets, I can see the logic of this.

>IMO judges who withold prizes in ordinary classes are power crazed meglomaniacs and appalling show-offs.

I vary between agreeing with Saxon and thinking that a few more judges should have the gumption to do it. I've seen places withheld at a breed club champ show, causing major consternation, but had to agree that the quality wasn't there in the class where places were withheld. Said judge then placed the dogs in later, non-qualifying, classes which probably confused people even more but I could see the point.

M.

Happened in cavalier bitches recently

KC Rules & Regs F(1)3.58.21.n is the rule that covers withholding places & has to be on lack of "merit" & yes if 3rd is withheld the lower places cannot me awarded

Happened to me once :rolleyes: I knew a particular judge didn't like my type but it was a local champ show so I just entered my puppy. She'd had 3 best puppy in breeds already at the 3 champ shows she'd been to, and a puppy group placing. Got to the show, saw I was the only one in puppy bitch and the only puppy dog was a dog I had beaten previously. Started looking through the catalogue to see who was doing the group, in the days we had puppy groups at most shows. Ah the pride before a fall... went into the ring, puppy moved well between bouts of puppy behaviour, wasn't particularly worried about it until the steward walked round the ring saying in a very loud voice "ALL PLACES WITHHELD"   Skulked out the ring, gave puppy a hug and went home. Same puppy got BP at the breed show amongst stiff competition. Judges critique said 'places withheld due to lack of quality' The people who later awarded her CCs seemed to think she had plenty of quality - but that's showing :)

I disagree with saxons idea of judges witholding in classes. Yesterday I saw a class of 2, one of which was lame & should have been withdrawn & the other was so untypical of the breed it was an embarassment. If I had been judging it would have been witheld & I wish more judges would have the guts to do this as it might maintain some of the quality in a minority breed.

same with stud book numbers, there are some dogs (one is particular that im thinking of ) that have stud book numbers purely due to numbers in the class when really they are a cr@p example of the breed.  The same goes for crufts, there were some really pants dogs at crufts this year which would never have qualified if it wasnt for small numbers in the class.  Im thinking either places should be withheld if only 3 in the class, or maybe there should be a rule that its only a qualifying class if there are more than 5 dogs entered.

Maybe we should go back to only 1st place winners qualifying for Crufts, that might sort the wheat from the chaff?  Or have the qualifications in line with the stud book bandings?  In my breed, even the most mediocre will qualify for Crufts, if you go to enough shows, eventually.

In certain breeds classes of 30+ aren't uncommon; sometimes all 7 places are high-quality dogs. In my breed (I don't show any more so have no axe to grind!) great dogs might never get their chance if there's one stunner around at the same time.

the judge was perfectly entitled to do what they did, the KC does say judges should withhold due to lack of merit. It does happen rarely and I dont think judges do it lightly, and dont do it to be power crazed etc as suggested by Saxon. Indeed when I have withheld a class place - have doe it twice - in both cases doing it was neither easy nor pleasant, but you arent there to be popular.

I may be slightly biased. Many years ago I had 3rd place withheld from me in Junior, in a class of 3. I got a friend, who was an extremely well known exhibitor, to take my dog into post grad, and he was placed 2nd in a class of 8.

Tsk, tsk - not just totally bad judging but poor stewarding too :rolleyes:  Seen dogs should be placed apart fron new exhibits in the class and the judge reminded of their placing (or lack of 'em ;) )

When I raised this very point with the steward, he was very embarrassed and said he had just had my dog marked down as unplaced in his previous class and had been confused by the change of handler.

I honestly wish judges would do this a LOT more, as is done in cats. In cats I have exerienced, more than once, getting a 2nd or 3rd in a class of one. That way you know any placing is well deserved regardless of whether there are 1 or 30 dogs in the class, and in numerically small breeds you avoid less good specimens qualifying for Crufts. :) It seems rare in the UK though, although I have seen it with continetal judges at the BSD breed champ.shows.

I agree - although I believe it only appropriate to withhold on merit at shows where CCs are on offer. 

For some people (sadly rapidly dwindling in number these days) showing is a hobby that they enjoy for the social aspect as much as anything else.  Their first or even second dog may not be up to scratch for the seriously competitive scene yet be all that they are able to keep.   In those circumstances I think it would be unnecessarily hurtful were a judge to withhold an award at a limit, open or non CC class at a champ show based solely on merit (different matter if a temperament issue of course).

For eg, dogs so far removed from the breed standard that they resemble another breed should, however, be penalised at higher levels - difficult decision I'm sure for any judge but IMO part and parcel of their duty.

I'd hate to have to do it but would if necessary :( (reckon I'd hate it more if it happened to me though :D ) 

Very good point Teri, and I do agree. In cats something like 99% of all shows are champ.shows with CCs on offer for all fully recognised breeds so I didn't think of the fact that in dogs it's different. It would be totally unnecessary at open shows for instance. :)

Unless of course it's a premier show for which BOB qualifies you for Crufts...

BOB has to be declared, whether of merit or not.

At a champ show a few months ago the judge witheld all but First place in Open Dog, saying in his write up that he didn't feel the others were good enough for a Stud Book number. I wasn't there, so unfortunately have no idea which dogs were chucked out like that! I think it would be very petty at an open show to withold though.

I'm 100% in agreement with Saxon on this. Our KC breed standards do don't have any disqualifying faults included in them. So for a Judge to withold any class prize is cruel and unneccessary, IMHO, they should place the dogs infront of them. Of course they are under an obligation to only choose a CC winner that they feel should be a champion, so witholding there is reasonable, but shows need also rans too.

Dawn R.

One of my dogs was unplaced because of the judge withholding and this was at an open show   My boy had a lot of problems with male judges due to having his testicles nipped at 7mths old by a very rough male judge.  I entered an open show under a male judge a few months after the incident, he checked my dogs bite and shoulder placement and as he was moving his hands towards the rear end my dog jumped out of the way.  He tried another time to go over him but no luck and I explained about the current problem.  So he asked me to move him to see if that settled him (I suspected it wouldn't) and still he couldn't get to go over him.  Bearing in mind my breed (weimaraner) is short coated and so apart from the bite you can see everything on the move.  Anyway, there were 4 in my class and instead of placing me 4th he placed 1st - 3rd and withheld my placing !

I was absolutely mortified, gutted and went home in tears.  I had only been showing for about a year.  In hindsight I should have spoken with the KC to see what they had to say about it, not sure how supportive they would have been, but an incident like this could easily have put me off showing.  As it happens I'm a stubborn bugger, knew I had a good enough dog for showing, carried on, got him over his fear of men and he now has his stud book number and is proving to be an excellent working dog who will do the job he was bred for and is happy to be shot over :-)

The day my boy got his testicles nipped was only his 3rd show and I have it on video so I can see exactly what happened.  There he was standing, waiting to be gone over with a lovely waggy tail and when judge got to his backend he leapt about uncontrollably.  That day has caused me no end of problems which through time, care and shere determination I have got my boy over.

But I'll never forget those incidents, or the judges involved, and I'll never ever give those judges another entry.  Judges have a lot to answer for IMO.

What a very mean and petty thing to do. You were right to feel so upset.

I think that the withholding at an open show was a little harsh. However championship shows are another matter, I disagree with Nursey that you should never withhold - what about if a dog has a very suspect temperament to the extent that you cannot touch it? Or a dog that is a very poor specimen in a small class? Just as well that those who dont like withholding are not showing in FCI, where if you dont get the top grade you leave the ring and take no further part.

I hear what you are saying bazb, temprament is paramount, but in general witheld places are not because of temprament, it is done because of lack of merit. I have seen a dog dismissed from the ring for biting the Judge and I have seen lame dogs withdrawn, by their owners.

Being third out of three or whatever, is enough of a judgement without going to the extremes of witholding, I don't feel it achieves anything but upset to the exhibitor. I would be hurt and humiliated beyond belief if it ever happened to me. I think it's rude and discourteous for the Judge to be so high handed.

Let's face it, the owners of these dogs eventually conclude that theirs is not up to standard and stop showing them anyway, there's no fun in losing consistently, and anyway, so what if they qualify for Crufts with a third in a class of three. The qualifying criteria for Crufts was not to restrict entry for reasons of quality, or lack of it, it was introduced to restrict numbers, no more and no less.

Dawn R.

Has happened twice in Tibetan Mastiff's in the last couple of years, Jean Lanning the first time and second time at Crufts ths year. Some of the dogs had got best of breed under other judge's