In no way a reflection on the dog, I'm sure he's a good'un ... just me pondering.

Another BIS win at WKC yesterday for the Visla. From the number of dogs entered, which must contain a fair number of 'stars', why do dogs like this seem to get a really good run of top level wins? Is it that he has just reached his peak, is in particularly fabulous condition mentally and physically to make the most of himself - or is it a degree of publicity and hype, do you think?

M.

I would think it was a bit of all you mentioned. I have watched the visla in his breed classes and he does have that "star" quality. His movement is  fabulous, very smooth and effortless with amazing reach and drive. JMHO

I was thinking about this the other day as it does seem to happen.

There are lots of super dogs at the CH shows but how come some dogs get a run of winning BIS?  Then another breed will take the BIS and for weeks after will always be on the front page of the papers.  The same occasionaly happned with tickets.

Do some judges play follow the leader?

Havent seen the Visla in the flesh, would love to as they are a super breed.

i think that some judges do play follow the leader, i am sure that the dog is wonderful same as the tt that had multiple BIS and the Giant Schnuzer that had multiple BIS.

We were there on working day and utility day both of those group winners were really super dogs to, the akita was outstanding,

But there is always more judges outside the ring than inside , so there will be many different views.

But i do'nt think that will be the vizlas last BIS, as like i said some judges will play follow the leader

Peanuts

I'm not capable of imagining just how it must feel to have this much show ring success, it's the stuff dreams are made of. I'm green with envy. What I wouldn't give to be that lucky, and I don't doubt for one moment that this is a very special dog, a once in a lifetime dog, but.................I'm so bored of seeing his name. I think it has got to a point where Judges could be afraid to not put him up.

I wish he was mine :) :) :) :) :D

Dawn R.

I'm sure he is a wonderful dog and it seems everyone else has about the same view as me. I would love to see him. Those 'once in a lifetime' dogs really do make the hair stand up on the back of your neck.

I can remember a few - don't know if people in the respective breeds would agree - that I considered had real star quality. The Afghan, Viscount Grant - the Dobermann, Sallate's Ferris - the Poodles, Montravia Tommy Gun, Topscore Contradiction - none of the breeds, apart from the Dobermann, particularly my cup of tea but just such movement, presence and attitude that you couldn't not watch.

(Of course, there are also some 'emperor's new clothes' dogs that, no matter what the hype, I can never quite grasp too.) ;)

I just always find it a bit odd that so many judges come up with the same one, particularly as the other group places seem to get a wide variety of different names appearing.

And of course I'm green with envy too, but in a very remote way - I'm glad to get a place with either of my girls and don't ever expect much, so I'm with Dawn in finding it unimaginable.

M.

The one thing about these imports that do a lot of winning is the fact that would they have been imported if they were rubbish? I don't think so. The Viszla had obviously won well abroad and was brought in to help the gene pool in this country (and also to win ;) ) His owners have spent a lot of money bringing him into the country so would expect him to win. Though I'm sure a lot of hype hasn't done him any harm :D I've spoken to the Giant Schnauzers handler and met the dog. What a lovely friendly dog he is. Deserves his wins too. Dogs that do a lot of winning have to have that certain presence that makes them good. It oozes out of them :)

Very true, certainly in my breed anyway.

Jenny

Yes and remember with the GS that did a lot of winning a couple of years ago this was the owners first show dog I believe and I've got to say the wins did not go to his head.

He stopped me at one of the South Wales Champ shows with my Spanish and said what wonderful dogs they were and he was so down to earth and approachable!

Nice to see, I must say!

As I say, I'm in no way claiming the dog isn't worthy. I just find it intriguing that out of all those dogs and all those judges, the same one gets such a lucky streak.

I loved the GS, thought he was a fabulous dog - and actually got to see him a few times as he's the same show day as me.

M.

Ok, here's the Devil's Advocate....

Winning an Australian/NZ title isn't exactly the hardest thing in the world to do, if you're prepared to clock up the miles you can make a dog up without even having been up against another of it's breed.

And methinks if I was on the other end of the lead.....I wonder if it would've done the same amount of winning considering I give CC's in no breeds?????   ;)

Have met the dog in question he is stunning and has that "star" quality he oozzes style and his movement is superb. I have watched him get a couple of BIS and to be honest though other dogs are stunning they don't quite match him on the day! which is what it is all about. (Though I loved the Akita on Sunday)

D

And another BIS today at SKC ... again, with a mix of names in other group placings.

Fabulous time for the owners.

M.

firstly he is a nice dog with lovely movement no denying that but as for the imput to the gene pool, he is bred back to Uk lines in the 4th generation any way, he is also being used a lot with several litters with quite old puppies still available being advertised on the net.

He is a really superb dog, great ones are rare which is why they often come out on top so much. IF I had a Viszla bitch I would want to use him before he returns home, and having recently judged one of his sons he is well worth using.

yes I agree he is a good dog ,but in small gene pool should he be realy used so much ? what if a hereditory problem developed with him in later life you could wipe out the whole of the vizsla gene pool. also if there are puppies still available at 14 weeks of age why use him why not purchase one of the progeny needing a home?
I would also be interested to see him complete some working tests he has proved beyond doubt his conformation is excellent but as yet no evidence he can also hunt point and retrieve! ! a vital componant in a duel purpose HPR.

kao kate, forgive me if I'm wrong but I would be more than happy to use a dog whose 4th generation are going back to UK lines which are in my dog.  I actually think in most breeds that's necessary rather than going to total outcrosses?  Unfortunately the old puppies being still available and being advertised on the net is not good :rolleyes::rolleyes:  Especially in a breed that isn't "common".

As they say, there, can be too much of a good thing :d

edited to say of course I would only be happy with the fourth generation bit if the dogs in that generation were good

I think ChristineW has it in a nutshell. It would certainly appear that to do well, you also have to be a judge :rolleyes: ;)

It is sad that some think the Viszla only wins because of his ownership or connections. Of course there is no way of knowing whether he would do so well in other hands, or whether thos eother hands would be so good at handling or conditioning him. And what is with this 'can he work'  business as an attempt to denigrate what is a truly great dog. One of the essentials in becoming a really good breeder or judge is to appreciate the value of other people's dogs, and realise that most dogs win because the judge genuinely likes them the best.

As I said when I started the thread, I am in no way disparaging the dog in question ... or indeed any other dog that has such a run of luck. I just truly find it intriguing that (I perceive) so many judges can find a good selection from show to show for the other group placings, but that one dog so strongly appeals for a period of time. If I have the time to follow up this bee in my bonnet this weekend, I'll do some research to see whether my perception of the other group placings is correct.

Just as an aside, the top breeder in my breed at the moment has, as far as I know, never or barely judged but wins consistently, generation on generation.

M.

Well said Bazb :)  I don't show anymore but when I did I used to get so fed up of people moaning about 'facy' judging, and how judges always look up the leads. I've never believed this. The 'faces' are faces because they have good dogs, they prepare them well, handle them well and know what to look for in a pup.

When I wanted a borzoi to show I went along to a few championship shows, knowing nothing, asked lots of questions and researched lots of pedigrees. I decided on the type of dog I liked, the current top winning dog and got one of his sons. My pup was the last in the litter to be homed, but very well bred. I asked lots of advice on presentation and worked hard with him. He became a champion and champ show group winner despite having a nobody at the end of his lead :D  For me showing is about breeding, conditioning and preparation not who's holding the lead.

so can we presume from you statment that because this dog has correct conformation this bypass`s the requirement for him to be able to perform the actions he is bred to do?:rolleyes:
no this not trying to critisis this dog more than half of the vizslas at stud have never proven there working ability, equally many have worked and have not made the grade in the show ring.
My argument is this dog is very popular and getting a great deal of press at present and it would ne nice to see him completing in working tests as well to prove he can do both! he  is advertised as a duel purpose dog  from duel purpose lines so it would nice to se the other side of the duel purpose as so far all we have seen is ability to impress judges in the ring and no one is trying to take that away from him as he is a lovely boy and a real showman.
Edited to say another essential to becoming a good breeder is to have a clear idea of where you are going and what you want to achieve and not to follow the flock and jump on the band wagon just because a dog is doing well in the ring doesnt mean he is compatible to every vizsla bitch!!

I do think a lot win on faces.  But the Giant Schnauzer that did a lot of winning was definitely not getting his wins due to this.  This was the owners first real showdog and from what I've seen at the shows it definitely didn't go to their head, they seem a lovely couple who also pass nice comments about other peoples dogs in other breeds :d :d

Its nice when people enjoy the winning but dont get all high and mighty about it ,I must say that the vizslas owners are very humble about his succsess it must be very exciting for them to bring him here and for him to do so well. :)

I just dont understand all this about if you have a Gundog it must be worked to show it is of value. In my opinion when judging you should apply what the breed was designed to do and look for those qualities regardless of breed. We dont say Collies arent any good unless they round up sheep. Not everyone ha sthe time to go out shooting, not everyome has the inclination to do so, does that mean they (we) shouldn't own a Gundog breed?
To answer the original question there will be definition only be a few greats around at any one time. At the moment the Viszla is not only a very well made dog, but also in great form. I watched him win his class and CC at SKC, he was in really wonderful conditioning and probably at his peak. That doesnt mean he is unbetable, or that other dogs will not get past him, after all some judges in the breed have preferred other Viszlas. But greats can tend to dominate for a time, the Schnauzer did for a while and there were others before, and will be in the future. Lets just appreciate quality and strive to equal or better it.

We dont say Collies arent any good unless they round up sheep.

Border Collies are only Show Champions until they pass the working test & i think there hse only been one champion to date so actually yes the KC do say they are not full champions unless they round up sheep

I always thought the HPR like GSPs & GWP & Vizslas were meant to be dual purpose unlike most of the other members of the gundog group

BTW I for one think that all dogs that are deemed pastoral, working, gundogs, hounds, terriers & some of the utility group should all prove they can work before becoming champions

>I for one think that all dogs that are deemed pastoral, working, gundogs, hounds, terriers & some of the utility group should all prove they can work before becoming champions

As the saying goes, "Handsome is as handsome does". A dog might be beautiful but if it can't do the job it was meant to do, then it's not true to type. IMO that includes the Toy breeds too, which were designed solely to be companions. If they're bad-tempered and snappy, then they're 'not fit for the purpose'.

If they're bad-tempered and snappy, then they're 'not fit for the purpose'.

No dog should have this sort of temperament in any breed not just toys. Any dog can be trained to pass a temperament test & still have a poor temperament so how would you test a toy breed for being a companion ? Incidently some dogs in the toy group originally acted as personal guards & watchdogs hence them sometimes being "yappy"in the eyes of other dog owners when in fact they are just doing the job they were originally bred for

What about the breeds that were bred to guard, would they have to prove that they are aggressive before they could become champions. A lot of the pastoral breeds were actually bred to guard sheep rather than herd them. Would they have to kill a wolf before they could become a full champion.

What about the breeds that were bred to guard, would they have to prove that they are aggressive before they could become champions. A lot of the pastoral breeds were actually bred to guard sheep rather than herd them. Would they have to kill a wolf before they could become a full champion.

:rolleyes: Guarding breeds have to show courage not aggression & TBH most current guarding breeds are way too soft to do the job they were originally bred to do to make them suitable "pets"

Flock guards are used today to drive off & not kill coyotes(actually seen a young Anatolian(sp)doing this & it did not kill the coyote) Flock guards are also used to protect goats etc from big cats & they are not expected to kill the Bigs Cats

GSDs do both guard & work sheep & there is an adequate sheep test for them BTW

So what will we get the Ridgebacks to do, or Bulldogs? It is true that temperament in the guarding breeds has been made 'softer' to accomodate the current times, after all most dogs bred are family pets - surely this is a good thing. we have to all live in the modern world.

Going back to the subject......

I found a copy of Australasian Gundog magazine this morning, the last copy printed in 2004, with a feature on one of the State's Viszla champ shows - with the mentioned dog featured winning Baby Puppy in Show!    I must say from the other photos printed his angulation (Even as a baby) looks to be better than the adults there!

About Viszlas working - on our shoot we have 3 who work wonderfully...so when I was asked to help training a year old viszla bitch, I jumped at the chance.   Well, she came. and she was absolutely beautiful - to see her against the heather behind our house was a picture.    Stunning.   Owners don't show, but should.

BUT, and a big BUT... I could no more get this bitch interested in anything - toys, dummies, balls of all shapes and sizes, cold game of all sorts - everything in my repertoire - she just didn't want to relate to anything.

I hope that she is unusual in the breed - maybe there is a key to training that I haven't worked out.    She was very very hot on deer scent, on a  long line, and this was the only spark we ever saw.    But a dangerous spark in the novice hands of her owners.

Maybe Viszla owners could comment, as beautiful as this BIS we are talking about  is - he really should be proven to be trainable at least, shouldn't he?

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I have to say that my vizsla has no interest in playing with toys but i have trained her to retrieve dummies. They work particulaly well for clicker training and praise but i am not sure if that is appropriate for gundog training.

She does retrieve very happily as she gets such a fuss when she does.

Not sure if my dog is funny aswell tho as she is very nervous around dogs which is not common either. Maybe i am not the best person to judge the puppy against

JoFlatcoat  -  why??  maybe we should see if the group winning Bull Terrier will kill other dogs in fights? Or perhaps show judges should take fresh game in the ring and throw bits of it around.

If a breed's original purpose is still legal then it should be a requirement of championship title that it can still do the job. A retriever that has no retrieving instinct is just a dog - not a Retriever!

Bull terriers were never used for fighting, by the way. The breed was developed for its appearance.

thats why gundogs are called shch until they have passed the correct working tests to become a full champion

Sunbeams has just sent me a link to Australian shepherds competing in round-ups in 2005 - to see these dogs working is awesome .....makes you realise just why we say "Aussies are not for the faint-hearted!"

Margot

LOL - you only have to see Tara rounding up joggers :D :D :D (Although she doesn't do it these days :) )

Daisy

Lily Mc, I loved Viscount Grant too - owned by Chris Amoo, a pop singer - me and my cousin got his autograph at crufts when we were about 10