Hi folks

I am planning to import a bitch puppy from France and the litter is now 20 days old and I will be going over to Provence in a months time to make my choice. The breeder will not keep her for the 9 months needed to comply with Defra rules under the Pet passport scheme and so I have two choices.

I have found someone in Normandy who will collect the puppy take it back to their place and raise it as part of their household ( taking her shopping, house training, socialising her with people and other dogs etc) ands well as making sure that all the vaccinations and paper work is done before entry to the UK - the only problem with this is that I will not be able to visit very often ( so could not be absoloutley sure that she is being treated well ) and  she will not know me , will bond with her 'foster carers' and it could be much more difficult for her to make the transition to our home later when she is 10-11 months old.

The second option is to collect her myself at 12 weeks and place her in a quarantine kennels which is only 2 miles from our house - this would mean that we ( and our friends etc) could visit every day , make sure that she is recieving the best care possible, give her blankets/toys etc that smell of 'home' so that when her quarantine period is over she will know us and settle in quicker. of course the BIG problem with this is that she will be kennelled for the whole 6 months - something I am not not at all happy with for such a baby. The quarantine kennels will meet me at Dover to collect her and prepare all the paperwork as well as ensuring that she has all her vaccinations etc - the costs are comparable - wth the French option being a bit cheaper but I would have to factor in my travel costs for when I am able to visit on top of this - and in any event I would not make this decision on cost alone.

Your thoughts would be very useful - I have to decide quite soon and I really don't know what to do for the best - HELP

Yvonne

Sorry for saying this but I'd personally do neither

option 1) I dont feel it would be fair to rip her apart from the people she has gotten to know well, and as you say you will not know how they treat her.

option 2) Just the thought of kennelling a dog for 12 months is something I wouldnt ever consider. Especially at that age, important months.

Sorry... I hope I've not upset you and really hope you make the right desision :)

In an ideal world we would have free movement of dogs between countries but unfortunately I do have to comply with Defra rules and these are the only two options. If no-one imported new lines to add to the exisiting gene pool within their breeds then we would soon breed ourselves into a corner.

Yvonne

i am doing the same  importing a dog from sweden.but he staying there untill he had all his test hip.eyes.elbows.patella ect before he come over.beacuse if he fail one of the test he will not come to the uk.the reason i bought him from aboard is for new blood lines plus to mate my bitches.so he got to pass all the test before he come over for that reason.
he 6 months old now and i went to see him a 5  month beacuse the breeder run on 3 male from this litter and she wanted me to go then beacuse they were older to see what they were like at that age a lot of change in a dog from  6 to 8 weeks. at 5 to 6 month you can see the picture of the dog plus mouth bite is rigth as well.eye colour.ect
out of the 3 between us we decside on the one we are having.so he been with the breeder untill now and he move on to a family home were they will train him four the big wide world.
he will come once he been tested at a year old if all clear he should be here bye march to may time.

plus i am going out to see him again in dec at his first show in stockholm. as well.
i think the way my dog beening bought up in a home is better than kennel.alot can happen in a kennel like catching kennel cough which can cause secondarly infection.injurys bye jumping up down the run.picking up bad habits like barking from other dogs in kennels.
plus it dearer  to go though quartine than stay in a family home were he be in a routine and comfort..
when i bought over a dog to stay for 6 months for sweden two year ago he had a get time he still down within a week in the house in fact he went back fitter and healthy.it was me that was upset losting him.
dogs do adjust it us human that dont thing they can.
after my trip to seeing my pup i will be happy for him to come  he was a happy out going naught fcr.

plus you could always travel to france to see the puppy to see how he doing plus emails and call to the person whos looking after him.
i will be better off bye a £1000 pound for not butting my pup in kennel.

if you need more detail on what i have done please give me a call or pm there are other things to talk about but i dont want to write it on here.

good luck

option 2) Just the thought of kennelling a dog for 12 months is something I wouldnt ever consider. Especially at that age, important months.

12 months ??? ???  when did the 6 months become 12 months ???

I've been down the Q route(pre PP days)& my dogs came out fine & all went in at the youngest age possible

Wouldn't do it again, but they the nearest Q kennels are quite a way away buty do allow as many visits as you want(& they are excellent)

I'm waiting until the planned changes to the UK PP rules are brought in(planned to be in force by 2010 at the latest)ie the PP is valid once the dog/cat has a positive titre test 28 days after vaccination

So puppies will only be 17 weeks old when they can enter the UK

lol it was a typo... I meant 6 months...

It is not something that i would like to do but if i had to make the decision i think i would go for quarentine.

My reasons:
a) I could visit everyday and do basic training  the way i like training.
b) I would like to know the exact experiences that my pup has had - you can never be too sure how the french people will look after your pup.
c) I would rather have a puppy with no experience of dogs than a pup that could have had bad experiences.
d) She will know you and when she comes home she will have something consistant with her.
e) I could never trust other people to train my dogs,  how i like. Also i would always be worrying about whether they were being kind to it.

However it is your choice so do what you feel best.
Hope it works out for you
Best Wishes
Anna

Just read my post again and when i put "you can never be too sure how the french people will look after your pup". I just wanted to say I have nothing against the french i just meant you can never be sure how other people will look after your pup.

Sorry

Friends and I imported a dog before the days of pet passport and I have to say I would not quarantine a dog again. We were able to visit as often as we wished, bathed and groomed him ourselves, played with him etc. but to leave him each time was heart-wrenching. Dont forget in such circumstances you cannot bring the puppy into contact with any other dog (even those in the kennels with her), no lead walking - the kennel and run is that dogs whole world while she is there and at that age she will need socialisation with other dogs.

Having worked in a quarantine kennel (only one!) I wouldn't consider it.  Mine wouldn't have allowed a daily visit, only weekly, they said that it disturbed the dogs too much.  And what the owners saw when they visited wasn't what happened for the rest of the time! :(

But I also wouldn't leave a dog in a home with people I didn't know and trust. :(  If I didn't know the breeders/foster carers personally, know their ethics and honesty, and they were keen to have a puppy in a show home in England, then I wouldn't be interested in the puppy anyway. 

Probably, on balance, I wouldn't do it at all.  Whilst I'm certainly not soft with my dogs - they are dogs - I've also never liked the idea of them being treated as 'stock' and wouldn't ship them around like a sack of potatoes.   Having exported twice, I won't do it again. :(

Just my thoughts but not very positive, I'm afraid.

Before the days of PP myself and my friends brought in 4 dogs via quarantine.  The three older ones coped very well but the puppy was the one with the problems when he came into the real world.  His owner that had him kenneled him and I think this was his main problem.  He was scared of all people and really didn't have a great existence until he finally went to a pet home with owners that were there with him all the time.  It took around 2 years to turn this dog around into the most gentlest dog!

My girl, Dilita, just sailed through quarantine, as she did everything else in life, but she was something special and not your typical SWD.

Luckily for me there were 4 of us that imported them so we would take it in turns during the week to go and see them.

I do wonder if a breeder is not willing to keep them for the 9 months necessary do they really want their breeding to improve the lines in another country?  I know it's hard keeping an extra dog for that length of time but I'd just be really pleased that someone abroad thought that my lines were worthy of doing that.

Hi,

I really don't know any thing about importing dogs/pups, but if it was something I needed to do then I would go for the second option for exactly the same reasons as anna above.  You can bond with your pup, do training the way you want it done and try and socialise your pup as best as is possible in that kind of situation, take different people in to see him, wearing different things,hats, brollies etc.  I'm not trusting enough to let other people look after or bring up my animals the way I would want them to be.

Good luck with your decision.

Karen

I agree quaranteen is bad enough for an older dog, for a pup to be basically in a kennel for the whole of it's 'childhood' which basically is what it is, with no socialising as we would socialise, no freedom to roam and explore the countryside, parks, life!  I would think it cruel to the pup. I would never do such a thing to a pup, it is not worth contemplating IMO.

The foster/carer have you looked into these people properly, if these people have dogs which are well cared for and properly trained out of the two options I would go for it, they can not be a fosterer of animals if they do not know what they are doing. They will socialise and train your pup, and give it as normal a life as possible, no different to giving your pup to myself or someone on here, all you need to do is ask them to train in the same way as yourself as you will be taking over at 9 months, you will have much more input and I am sure regualr e-mails, phone calls or written letters about your pup and you can visit a few times also. Your pup will be in a home enviroment, they are not going to abuse your pup, you would instantly know by it's behaviour, if you find anything wrong on your few visits, move your pup out and find another fosterer. But I would think all will be well, apart from the heartbreak for them when your pup finally leaves to come to you.

The only other option is to find an older dog from the same lines that you can bring home immediately, and so the pup can go to another owner.

Out of the kennels and fosterer though, the fosterer IMO is a far better option for your pup and may well have an extremely happy upbringing.

I would go for the French option, myself, this would enable the puppy to be fully socialised with other dogs which would be an element missed out in quarantine here.  I think a well socialised puppy will be a very adaptable creature and should soon settle in a new home again very well, most dogs do this far better than we would have imagined in my experience.
Is this one of the foster homes that regular do this as a business?  Friends of mine have just brought their dog back from Vietnam via such a home in France.  He is 13 years old, bless him, they got regular reports as to his progress via the internet and he has come home in bouncing, cheerful health :)

HUGE thanks to all who replied - it really does help to hear first hand experiences- these are the websites of the two options www.greenfieldkennels.com ( France) and www.ukquarantine.com ( England). They both look good and I'm just trying to decide which would be best for the puppy. I have asked the breeder to keep the puppy for the additional time but she is adamant that she will not do this ( she says that she will become too attatched and will not want to let it go at 9 months) - she already has many more buyers than pups available and if I want this puppy then I will have to find a solution myself. :rolleyes:

Yvonne

Yvonne do you know anything about the experience of the kennel owners in France?  All I can find on the site is that they breed pet Cavaliers.  The facilites look OK but they're no good without knowledgable humans! ;)

I can't find up to date quarantine info on the Defra site either!  I'm useless with this computer!  It used to be that you had to have 3 feet between all quarantine kennels, not next door as in the quarantine kennel picture, but maybe the regs have changed?

I would go with the foster carer,although i do not understand this breeders reluctance to keep the puppy on for 9mths,nor her paltry excuse.I think this would put put me off to begin with. Cant you get the breeder to check on pup regularly?
I could never quarantine a dog for 6 whole months,especially not a young pup,too many reasons to list....,this is an awful long time for a young one and as you know the most critical time of their lives.Should something go wrong in this time it may never be able to be repaired,

Ofcourse there are 'other' ways to get dogs accross,albeit not legal ones.How hard would it be to smuggle a dog through,for curiosities sake, and would it affect papers,showing etc doing it this way?

>Ofcourse there are 'other' ways to get dogs accross,albeit not legal ones.How hard would it be to smuggle a dog through,for curiosities sake, and would it affect papers,showing etc doing it this way?

That is truly one of the most irresponsible, idiotic things I've ever read on this site. :rolleyes:

Strewth I missed that bit.  What enormous harm that could potentially do to the dog population here, including yours Ktee

I didn't miss it, just thought that person wasn't worthy or a reply

Thanks for the websites. But, is there not a foster home available for the pup that the breeder can perhaps find, where it can live in a house with a family? The French foster home looks like a boarding kennel (well is a boarding kennel) would this mean the pup would be kennelled as the other dogs but have special treatments of extra socialising thrown in, this is not what I thought it was. Or will they take the pup home with them. Even so out of the two is still the best, as at least it can socialise with the other dogs and leave the compound.

>But, is there not a foster home available for the pup that the breeder can perhaps find, where it can live in a house with a family? The French foster home looks like a boarding kennel confused (well is a boarding kennel) would this mean the pup would be kennelled as the other dogs but have special treatments of extra socialising thrown in,<

I agree,but i have a real aversion to people keeping their dogs,especially wee pups outside in kennells!

Oh Yvonne you really must be in a dilemma,it's case of the devil and the deep blue sea i thinks! I know,i couldnt make this decision,i wouldnt end up getting the dog at all knowing me

No she would not be kennelled- I will quote direct from the e-mail I recieved from the French kennels;

" We will also guarantee your puppy a normal puppy life. From arrival on day one she will live with us in our house, mix with all our mad lot, go for walks and shopping and get house trained ( nicely) all in all get all the love and affection a new puppy needs at the start of it's life. we can also take care of all the paperwork for you so that her entry into the UK will be problem free ....."

They have done this kind of 'fostering' service before for other breeds apparently but of course I am totally reliant on what they tell me - for all I know she may be crated or kennelled for large parts of the day :( and I would not be able to check on a regular basis - they have also said that they will supply regular pictures and e-mails on her progress.

We are goung to check out the quarantine kennels this afternoon but I must admit that I am leaning towards the French option.

Yvonne

Hi Yvonne

Could you ask these people to provide you with references from satisfied customers and their contact details?  I would want to do that I think.

By the way, I do not think the breeder is being unreasonable in not wanting to run on a pup until 9 months and then let it go - I couldn't do that either!  I would find it too difficult to let one go after so long - I'm sure the pup would be fine but I wouldn't.

I think the references idea is a very good one.  The French home option looks better and better to me.

>The French home option looks better and better to me.<

I agree.If what they are saying is legit,it sounds like the perfect option :)

" We will also guarantee your puppy a normal puppy life. From arrival on day one she will live with us in our house, mix with all our mad lot, go for walks and shopping and get house trained ( nicely) all in all get all the love and affection a new puppy needs at the start of it's life. we can also take care of all the paperwork for you so that her entry into the UK will be problem free ....."

Good speak but what experience do they have?  Would you leave your puppy with someone who you met in the park who said the right things?  How do you know that they won't let their children take the puppy out and let it slip the lead??  Sorry but I wouldn't trust my puppy to anyone that I didn't know, let alone pay them. :(  It reminds me of my grooming clients who preferred to leave their dogs 'in someone's home' instead of the security of kennels and it slipped out of the front door and was run over. :(  What a dilemma for you. :(

for all I know she may be crated or kennelled for large parts of the day
You do have knowledge about what goes on in boarding kennels then! ;)

How about putting an advert in DW asking if anyone has put a puppy in a foster home in North France and could recommend?  There must be a lot of people doing it who don't want to quarantine these days.  Maybe a breeder of another breed who has experience in running on and handling young puppies.?

Let us know what you think of the quarantine kennels, I expect going there and seeing it and hearing all the right things will sway you towards that option with it being local, just don't make a decision, come home and weigh everything up. 

I have to admit, if I was the breeder with a handful of suitable people wanting my pup, I would not have let one go to be put in quarantine for 6 months, I guess there are different types of breeders, but even the thought would upset me terribly, I would insist on a foster home that I personally had approved and I would frequently check on the pup myself, this I feel is a good, reputable breeder, after all it is her name attached to the pup. I am shocked that the breeder is not setting everything up for you and the best for her pup. I don't have a problem with importing/exporting for breeding lines, we have all had to do it to get good blood lines, just the way this one is being left to you to sort out, with no prior knowledge of who to use etc.

I once kept a pup back for a fantastic home for a couple of months which was hard for me to let it go so do understand the breeder not wanting the pup for 9 months as it would feel like her dog, but I would have sorted out everything my self and not left you with such a dilema.

I truly feel sorry for you. :-(

"guarantee"  is there more on what this constitutes?  What are the conditions of the guarantee, where are they spelled out?  Who decides if the conditions have or have not been met?  What compensation is there if the guarantee has not been met?  I have no bias towards one option or another but the above should be investigated and decided well before purchase.

French home sounds better actually. I didn't reallise that they had done it before. References would be good.

Good luck in what you do
Anna

Hi Yvonne - I too would agree that the French home would be the best bet - what might be even better would be if you could find an English family, experienced with the breed, who live in France who could foster her......I'm just thinking in terms of training words.....

Margot

I would be worried they/she would get too attched. and where would you stand if she should go missing or they decided to keep her, its along way and anything could happen and you wouldn't even know, is there not another breeder who would keep a pup back for you until the relevent time, i'm not sure i would take the risk and what about the stress for you

Right - I've just got back from viewing the Quarantine kennels and quite simply I could no more leave a 12 week old puppy there than fly to the moon ! - my benchmark was " would I leave one of my own dogs here" and the answer has to be no :(. They probably do exceed Defra's reccomendations and are no doubt no worse than most quarantine facilities but I thought the kennels and runs just too small and lacking any kind of stimulation. Just row upon row of stressed barking dogs !. Now I am aware that they could have been stressed because we were visiting but it is still not the environment I want my pup raised in. SO..... that only leaves me the French option.

Of course there are other breeders but I have chosen this pup very carefully and for very good reasons ...her bloodlines are just what I am looking for and whilst another breeder may hold on to a pup for me it will not be THIS one ;).

I will talk to the breeder this evening and explain the dilemma just to see if she has any other solutions - if not I will go with the French 'foster' kennels and try and visit as often as I can.

thanks for your help - a problem shared etc........

Yvonne

PHEW!!!  I was so worried you would think it ok.

The pup will be in the best of the two options, if all is as stated on the French fosterer's statement, the pup will have a happy upbringing.

Good luck, gosh it will be like waiting for a full human pregnancy until you get to bring the pup home, you are sooooo.... much more patient than me. :-D

Yvonne,

I took the time to read this thread through very carefully having imported a bitch from Spain this year.  She didn't pass her titre test and needed to stay a further 6mths which I have to say were the l o n g e s t six months I think I've ever known!  The waiting is murder!!!

There were times when I wished we'd brought her over and quarantined her but the only kennels I'd consider using are 60 miles from us :-(
There were other times when I was so glad she was there as although she was in effect in kennels in Spain they were very different to our kennels and the dogs had alot more freedom.  She spent alot of time in the breeder's home and was well socialised and well muscled.  We also visited as often as work (and costs!) permitted and showed her very successfully in Spain. :-) :-)

I vowed I'd never go through it again......funny how just a few months down the line I'm considering it!!!! :-D

(((((((((((((Big hugs)))))))))))) for the forthcoming wait! :-)

Why did she need to stay a further 6 months if she failed her titre test, Debs? Surely this should only delay the process by 1 month?

M.

Oh how I wish it had only been a month Lily :-(

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/quarantine/pets/procedures/support-info/btest.htm

Failed blood tests

If an animal fails the blood test, the test must be repeated and this may be done following revaccination depending on your advice to the client. The 6 calendar month wait before entering the UK (see below) would start from the date that a subsequent blood sample that gave a satisfactory result was taken.

If Rjj's titre test hadn't passed he would have been revaccinated(depending on the actual titre level)& then 28 days later re tested & then the 6 months would have started a delay of 28 days not 6 months this someone has misinformed you or mislread the DEFRA site

As Moonmaiden says, you've been misinformed. I have a dog doing his passport in France at the moment, and he failed his first titre test but was re-vaccinated and re-tested a month later so will only be delayed by one month.

M.

Glad you've clarified your thoughts on the kennels at least, Yvonne.

Just to muddy the waters a little ...

If I remember rightly you have BSD? To be honest, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable that someone who breeds Cavaliers would be the best people to raise a fairly specialist breed which is so different from their own. My perception of Belgians (sure you'll correct me if needed) is that they are possibly somewhat sensitive and best with someone who knows the breed. I'm not saying the temperament is bad, not what I mean at all - just that they're 'different' and require understanding.

I think I'd be asking the breeder to sound out her breed contacts and see if anyone would be able to board the pup for you. Unfortunately, it's not sounding as if she's being too helpful on this front.

Our Hungarian boy was driven to France by his breeders to meet us there, then stayed with the owner of the stud dog until he could come here. Apart from going to the odd show, he probably left the premises to go to the vet and on perhaps one walk in the time he was there, but he was with people who know the breed, running with his own kind and he settled in to life here with no issues at all. He has one of the best temperaments I've ever known.

So, I guess what I'm saying is I'd be less worried about the socialisation aspect, and more worried about someone who understands the temperament. To prove my point though, you might say that this is not the right way to approach YOUR breed. :D

M.

Hi- yep this aspect went through my mind too - Belgians are very sensitive and can be ruined by the wrong kind of early upbringing - but on balance I feel that it would be less harmful if she was raised surrounded by easy going Cavaliers than a kennel full of frantically barking stressed dogs. Of course the ideal would be to find experienced show folk that could raise her as we would and take her to a few shows etc but this seems impossible. If they treat her with kindness, give her freedom to play and interact with both humans and other dogs and involve her in family life then this should be sufficient. I will of course stay in constant touch with them to try and forstall any problems - and visit as often as I can.

Yvonne

I feel the breeder could perhaps have been more helpful - could you ask her to put you in touch with other Belgian breeders, who may help - does she own the father of the puppy too - if not, his owner may be of assistance.

Hi Yvonne,

just read this (been away for a few days).  Is Karen H unable to help?  If so, she may at least be able to recommend a similar foster home for you.

I can appreciate the dilemma - but perhaps someone else within our breed will be able to assist with names of potential foster homes for you.

Wishing you the best - exciting, isn't it!
regards, Teri :)

Hi Teri

Good to hear from you -I have tried e-mailing Karen but have had no reply and really need to get this sorted ASAP as I am flying out to Marseille to choose my pup quite soon - I quite understand though why so few folk go down this road - it's quite problematic and made more so by the rabies restrictions. It IS very exciting and hopefully she  will prove  a valuable addition to the breed over here.

Yvonne

Hi Yvonne,
Have just read this too!  What a dillema!!  I have no experience in this at all, but I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide.

Hugs,
Sarah.

I have both done pet passport and quarenteen, I would think you mean the one at Turves?, Bora had to go into there because of problems with her European passport, The family that ownes the kennels did spend time with her and took great trouble with her eating , we went every day, took a book and stay with her. Took treats. They took very good care of her, I think she bonded with us more than the pet passport dogs, Then we had the langauge barrier, would they teach English commands to the dog in Belgium. We could only go over to America to visit the three over there a couple of times, I stayed 2 weeks with the lady that did the 10 month PP over there, they got to know me. THey were happy as larry when they came through Amimal reception at Heathrow.

Both ways they came to live at home as if they had always been there after a week. Tibetan Mastiff's are not easy breed but both ways they have settled in this country. I think a lot would depend on the temprement of the puppy.