A funny thing happened to me yesterday......

In the post came a copy of a registration of a puppy I had sold to a very pleasant woman from Wales two years ago. Phoned up KC to see why I've got it, and they say someone had requested it, but as they had never transferred the registration, it was sent to me.

Soon after, phone rings with mother of purchaser on phone, asking what bitch's pedigree was, as she'd just had her hips scored. Daughter has had divorce, mother has now got three flatcoats. and papers lost. I ask why she has had hips scored - 'Oh, I suppose to breed a litter'
Me 'Haven't you got enough flatcoats with three of them now'
She 'Oh gosh Yes'

Now the papers had been endorsed (luckily) with breeding and export restrictions, and the puppy sales contract was signed by original purchaser to say she understood what this meant, and that it could be lifted if there were a BONE-FIDE reason to breed after proof of necessary hip score and eye test.

Do you people think that if the original purchaser transfers the bitch to her mother, the sales contract still hold good, or could a subsequent owner (who had never signed it) do what the ****they like?

What would YOU do with the copy registration?

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I asked the KC this, and the endorsement still holds good.

I would send the new owner the registration document, pointing out that the papers are endorsed, and that you would sign the transfer box if they returned it to you with the note you have enclosed to say they understand the endorsement!

That way you have signatures re endorsements for both owners, then you can sign the reg for them to transfer the dog to their ownership.

Even without this though the KC would not remove the endorsement, but it is nice to have it even more air tight.

Hi Jo
I agree with Brainless. Stick to your guns.
However, as is commented by Pat sadly this won't stop them breeding puppies without KC reg! :(
Nicky

Jo Hi, do you think in some cases they will go ahead and breed anyway ?
you hear so many stories of breeding without papers now adays ,some people just see
the £ sign in front of their eyes .Pat xx

Did I not read something recently about the kennel club removing endorsements when a dog had been sold to a new owner on the basis that the new owner had not been informed of the endorsement by the breeder! I remeber thinking at the time that sounded a bit off. I think that may have been what Gwen was talking about during a recent discussion about registrations and I seem to remember she was of to investigate further, maybe she will read this and comment.

This can happen, usually if the papers were not to hand when pup was sold. So now to stop any doubt all the KC ask is that something is signed signifying that the buyer knows about the restriction. As most breeders use some sort of Puppy agreement, it is eqasily covered. this ignorance thing applies to the original buyer, they will not remove the endorsement when the dog has been passed on to another powner who is unaware of the meaning of the endorsement, and they will not remove them!

No it wasn't to do with getting the understanding that there was an endorsement in writing from the original purchasers, Brainless, I think it was something to do with the dog changing hands again and therefore negating the original agreement, but I am not sure.

Hi, yes I was talking about this on another thread. I am still waiting for written reply from KC, the problem is over the phone you often get different opinions! The person I spoke to a couple of weeks ago said that whilst in theory, if the endorsement was correctly placed, and paperwork handed over etc. at time of purchase, then the endorsement should only be able to be removed by breeder. However (as we have discussed before) if the endorsed paperwork is not available to be handed over at the time of the sale then it can be lifted if purchaser says they were not aware. Similarly, if someone buys the dog from the original purchaser, and the paperwork with the endorsement isnot handed over at that time, then it has been known for this subsequent purchaser to have th endorsement lifted, if they can prove that they were not aware of endorsement at time of purchase. This is not an automatic type thing, and I gather on the couple of occassions it has happened some sort of legal proceedings have been going on at the same time. However, it means that endorsements are not full proof, although not easy to get removed. Still waiting to get this in writing.

Gwen

I would say that as the original purchaser bought a KC registered dog, they are probably legally entitled to have the signed transfer paper. However, I would definitely enclose a copy of the signed puppy sales contract with the form and remind them what the endorsements mean and that this was agreed to. I would also send a copy to the KC, and inform the owners that you have done so.

With my puppy contract I take the view that (as discussed on another thread) these documents are not legally binding, and it is therefore in my best interest to make myself approachable for discussion, negotiation and any rehoming requirement.

To that end, I'd send a very pleasant note with the form and copy contract, saying that you'll be very pleased to discuss whether it's appropriate to consider breeding from her when hip score is returned. Also, without scaremongering, remind them that it can be hard to sell large litters of puppies when they are registered, never mind unregistered.

Out of interest, how did they get her hip scored without this information?

Hi Jo,

No expert on the breeding but some knowledge of Law.

One. I would not send any papers regardless of what you are told until you call KC and tell them whole situation.

Two, I would not send any papers neither until they send you a signed and witnessed letter saying that they fully understand that there are breeding endorsements on the bitch. Don't send papers in the hope they will then send you a letter as it won't come to you.

Three, Why now is there a problem with the papers and why has the real owner not registered the dog in her name.

I would sit tight on it just now ...someone else has said the people bought a KC reg dog..Well regardless if you are the registered owner or them it is still KC registered even if it stays in your name. The only reason it would appear to me to at this time need it is for breeding or showing.

I would be careful why all of a sudden has the papers been asked for. Don't want to alarm you but we have all heard of scams.

This is only a story and may not be the case.( Careful what I say) but I have heard of people rehoming the dog in hearsay only getting new papers and then breeding the dog with the endosments lifted and it was the first owner that had the dog but changed into a freinds name.

There are a few scams going on...

Anyway as I say don't want to panick you but something is smelling iffy to me..

Pam

Hi Jo,
That is a good point. I would ask for a letter from the original owner that you sold to confirming that they had sold/passed the dog on to these people, before you let them have the signed reg docs. Of course don't l;et them have the docs until you are happy, and they realise they can't breed KC reg pups without your say so!!

Hello everybody.

I must say my automatic reaction was to hold onto the papers anyhow. I guess my puppy contract is not a legal document, but notwithstanding, I have a copy of it (the purchaser had a duplicate).

I do think there may be something fishy going on here - you get a second sense about these things sometimes. The mother of the purchaser said she had bred cocker spaniels before, but had not an inkling of how the endorsement system worked, nor the hip scoring.

However, I don't want to be in dire trouble legally for witholding the registration. The purchaser was most certainly were provided with one in the first instance.

Now, of course, I'm scared that they will breed regardless of registration, which is worse, as there are no
limits set on anything as far as I can gather.

They didn't know the pedigree, which is why the mother phoned up ; in my eyes that shows a lack of basic interest. I have looked at my hip scores - they also need the reg. no., which she didn't ask for - I wonder if the KC would have given it to her over the phone?

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

this is what has recently happened too me..............

i got a Bully bitch my breeding but bought her in i got her aged 8 months.
i had her maybe 2 months and in that time had some bad experiences with her temperament.
in the end and the last straw she bit me.............badly.

Anyway i decided i have tried everything and basically she was nuts..........she would circle my legs then grab my ankle........pace up and down the kitchen at 3 am barking at nothing.
so i decided i had to do the worst.
i called her breeder (there first litter if u can call them breeders) and told them the situation they agreed and gave me permission too put her too sleep........
i got very upset on the phone and broke down the breeder offered too come and pick her up and take her too his vets as i was in a mess crying etc.

i agreed and he came straight away...........nice man
any way he told me she was too be destroyed at 6:30 so i spent hours looking at the clock and crying.
he called me weeks after and aked me for her papers (which i had ripped up)
i asked why and he said that he had rehomed her..........i had a fit on the phone and made sure my feelings of reproducing this bitch and passing the buck by rehoming her was not on.........as she had a terrible temperament.
i put the phone down and called the K.C and arranged to have the endorsement put on progeny not to be registered.they told me as i did know that the new owner has too agree and sign too say they understand.
i also told a porkie saying the bitch was in my posession.
cut a long story short i phoned them and told him that she was endorsed and he didnt understand so i explained.........
i got him to sign a document saying he understood and he agreed.
at the end of the day if someone does breed her i will NEVER take off the endorsement in my opinion that bitch should never be able to produce that temperament ........yeah maybe its not hereditary but she carries my Affix and ill be damned if she does produce it that i have my reputation dragged down.
thought id share that with u.
and now ALL my puppies are endorsed for both export and breeding they sign an agreement and i will lift it when i see evidence of health tests and i see the dog and its temperament........
my right as a breeder.
vicki

Terrible Vicky but you did the right thing.

it is terrible we can't trust people nowaday..

Pam

JO,

Don't worry about the legal stuff..

it takes more than this to get you into trouble..

Just you hold fire and keep us up to date if you like . I am sure we all agree to wanting the best for th dog. It sounds strange.

Pam

HI Jo, I had a "do" with someone years ago. I sold a bitch puppy as a pet, with breeding endorsement and a "tie you up in knots" contract stating amongst other things I must be given first refusal on any eventual re-homing/sale. Everything was explained and agreed with the purchaser, her signing the contract to the effect she understood and agreed to everything in it. Water tight you would suppose? 14 months later (when she was probably in season) I had a call from the then big walla Mr.L. from the KC saying that the owners had tried to apply to have the endorsement lifted saying that the owners knew nothing about it. I supplied a copy of the contract that we both signed and all seemed to be well. He phoned again a few weeks later to ask again if I would lift the endorsement as the owners were still hassling him, I said no, absolutely not, and he said - wait for it - that he could lift the endorsement himself if he thought fit. I explained why I did not want the bitch bred from a) she was too young b) she had a fault - which had been explained to the purchaser and was in the contract. He agreed to keep the restriction on. However it was very worrying to hear that he could lift it without my permission or even without my knowledge. This was about 10 years ago, so I dont know if things have changed since then.

I would agree that this is a concern. I have known the KC do some very strange things with regard to transfers and endorsements on behalf of a breeder I know, who fortunately was doing them for the right reasons with puppies she had bred that had been rehomed. However, if she had been doing them for the wrong reasons, they wouldn't have known.

I would maintain that a) the contracts aren't legally binding and b) the best legally binding contract is completely useless if you can't find the dog it relates to as it's been rehomed - so the best thing to do is keep things friendly and try and work it out. If you are in discussion with these people, you can talk about the problems of still having half a dozen pups at 6 months old because homes can't be found, particularly if they aren't registered and how much money and effort goes into a litter.

I'm waiting for the phone to ring with the mother again - will only be a matter of time. One of those occasions when you wish you'd bought one of those BT caller display gadgets!

Interestingly, but not so serious in consequence - I read in the BRS that one of my dogs (again endorsed not for export) had an export pedigree granted to him for Australia. I knew that the owners had moved - they'd told me, but at no time did I sign anything to lift the endorsement. As it happens, the owners have a lot of integrity, and I trust them - I would have lifted it anyhow, but that's not the point.

There isn't a lot to stop people forging a signature on a piece of paper to the KC - shouldn't think they bother to check, do you?

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Hi all again from a legal point of view I would not accept the KC saying some of the things they say neither.

If like WL you put endosements on for good reasons, you have explained fully the implications of them and the KC lift them without proof that they had reasonable doubts about the breeders reason then you CAN sue the KC.

I am 100% confident about this comment you would however need to show that there has been a lose suffered, for example you kennel affix name in disrepute, health reasons that could affect the dog or puppies.

If I called the KC and they said that to me I would be telling them 100% straight that the documents ARE Legally binding that is why the KC invented the things and that if they lift them you will be seeking legal counsel with the view to raising a civil action against the KC. See how cocking they are then.

AS BREEDERS YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO PROTECT YOU DOGS AND THEIR OFF SPRING, LIKEWISE THE KC should support you in doing so.

What a sad world we live in really.

Pam

Hi Pam, I am sure you are right, that the Kc could be sued. Trouble is, would one then "be bringing the KC into disrepute" ? If so, they possibly could refuse to register puppies and bring complainents before the general committee !! Complain as I might, the wrath of the KC is something I would rather avoid! :-)Very scary.

Do you suppose anyone on KC committee reads this ever - would be interesting to have a 'mole' wouldn't it? Anyone on KC committee please hold their hands up now................

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I totally 100 % understand what you are saying but when right is right it would take more that the wrath of the KC to make me back off on a point of morally right or wrong.

I must sound like a big bully but not at all, It is sad for people to spend time building a good reputation and have lovely lines and then have people take that and tarnish it and likewise someone at the end of the phone telling you they will do what they like.

Of course this would only be the case when someone is doing harmful things to your business and lines.

I know of an instance recently where a good breeders name was mentioned in the same sentence as a skin disorder which was connected ot another dog. This breeder although one of their pups was used in the breeding was not I think the problem.

Now how many people would avoid this breeder because of this comment.

If this was you or any other breeder with a good name previously I think you would challenge the KC after that and likewise I would happily be behind you.

We as people tend not to know enough about our rights and things companies can and cannot do. Likewise 8 years ago I would have been cautious about challenging certain bodies but after 8 years of working not only with legal matters but being heavily involved with large business contracts etc I now am far more confident about legal matters. I have seen far bigger fish than the Kennel Club getting fried for stepping out of line.

As I said earlier I am not challenging you or disagreeing with you. You will be amazed how much people back down when challenged in a legallt correct and professional manner.

BFN

Pam