Hello,
I have recently been asked to lift the breeding endorsements placed on a bitch that I have bred. Obviously this will not be done until the agreed health checks have taken place but in all honesty I am not really happy about lifting them anyway and would like some advice. If the owner had said originally that she had wanted a puppy for breeding then I would not have let her have her and I really do not want the bloodlines ending up in the wrong hands. I also am not convinced that the dog she is going to use is health checked as I have asked for more details on him but she doesn't know his name yet alone anything else. It would also be a christmas litter which isn't ideal either.
Anyway, is there anyway that I can lift the endorsements on the bitch but with restrictions only allowing any resulting puppies to go as pets, so with endorsements on them??? I will get a contract made up with this being the conditions but would be much happier to do this through the kennel club also to avoid any future problems.
I don't want to be a meany and think I am being a bit over protective but, I don't want to supply the local puppy farmers with yet more cavaliers.

I hope someone can help.
Debbie

I tell my puppy owners that I won't ever lift the restrictions, simply because I feel that it's putting the bitch at risk if the owner has no experience of whelping and rearing a litter.  Before I used restrictions, an owner rang out of the blue, and asked me what stud dog to use on her pet bitch.  I tried to explain why it wasn't a good idea and she put the phone down and used a dog up the road.  I received a very sad letter from a VERY apologetic owner saying that the bitch had a discharge that she didn't notice and had died 6 weeks in whelp. :(  That was when I started using restrictions and will not sell to pet owners who say that they want a litter.:(  I think that I might be tempted to say that you don't consider her to be good enough quality to be bred from, regardless of the health test results. ;)
I do, of course, lift restrictions for experienced exhibitors/breeders. :)

Dont think you can stipulate restrictions on resulting puppies via KC.
But perhaps if you try to take the 'mentor' role of this person then you
can try and 'guide' them in the right direction and help them make the 'right'
decisions. Afterall we all have to start somewhere...and with the help of a mentor
well it can make all the difference to which path you choose.

Advise that if she doesn't pass her health testing that you won't lift restrictions.
That the reasons for doing this is to protect the breed -
Try and get involved and ask re the dog she thinks she has chosen that she would like to use as a stud, ask to go with her to see him, his pedigree etc.
Say that you are making sure that they both compliment each other etc etc.
Show/advise her the process of how this is done properly

Perhaps advise her to buy and read and re-read the book of the bitch. Which identifies all the potential problems that you can have
when breeding your bitch.
Perhaps if you have a breed publication with all the health problems that Cavaliers
can suffer with that she can read and digest and understand why both parents should
be health tested. Especially if she's breeding to keep a puppy herself.

Perhaps share your concerns re the Christmas litter and advise that it's easier having a spring/summer
litter especially when trying to toilet train the puppies etc.
That what was most foremost in my mind when I had my litter (Boxers) - I was always thinking of the practical things...

Good Luck
Kirstine

You can't put restrictions on resulting pups and if you only put in your contract that they have to do the required health tests on the bithc that they've bought from you and they do do them, then I don't think that you'll have a leg to stand on unfortunately!

Afterall we all have to start somewhere
Sure, but how about starting with a quality bitch and not one sold as a pet? :rolleyes:
If she'd talked about this when buying the puppy, Debbie may well have steered her towards another puppy in the litter and would have been happy, I'm sure, to mentor her through this?

There are more than enough poor quality, pet bred Cavaliers out there, I agree Debbie. :)

As it is a Cavalier Bitch then she must be MRI scanned & should not be bred from unless she does not have the malformation etc Add to this heart screening by a cardiologist clear & eye screened clear by a ISDS/BVA/KC pannellist, Hip scored for HD(yes HD is a concern in Cavaliers just been speaking to a lady who had had four cavaliers with severe HD from 4 different UK "show"breeders & no she doesn't over feed or exercise her dogs) & of course be over 2 1/2 years old

Then the owner needs to find a dog who has had all the same tests done & then you should consider lifting the restrictions

TBH if I sold a dog as a pet with restrictions unless it was an outstanding example of the breed I would never lift the endorsements

Double post

TBH if I sold a dog as a pet with restrictions unless it was an outstanding example of the breed I would never lift the endorsements

Now, that's what I was trying to say! :D

LOLOL Val ;)

I was going to mention the MRI scans! If you've made it clear that she will have to pass this scan before lifting the endorsement, you probably won't have to worry as so many of our lovely Cavs have positive scans. :-(

When you sold the puppy they must have been aware of the restrictions.  Can you remember if you said that you would lift the restrictions if they decided to breed in the future.  If you didn't say that and you do not feel happy with this , then don't lift the restrictions.  Provided you haven't discussed this with them then I don't see why you should.

The dogs that I have bought or co-own or bred are part of my family first and foremost...
anything else that we achieve with them is a bonus.
Granted I had done my homework before buying or co-owning a puppy with hopefully a longterm
view of perhaps being my foundation bitch or one that I hope to restart my lines with. I was also open and honest with the breeder/s.
Saying that I wanted a bitch that hopefully would be a) good enough to show and b) once passed
health tests for my breed I may *consider* them being my foundation etc.

I'm alsovery lucky to have someone who has at least 5 decades of experience within my breed
that I consider my mentor. I have been in my breed for 17 years and I started somewhere..maybe not with the
best but I learned and took in all I could about the breed etc. I myself have only bred one litter, but have been around when others
have had litters so I've experienced the pitfalls, roller coasters and highlights of breeding.

Trouble is when someone people come to view a puppy the thought of having a litter/breeding said puppy
when they come of age etc isn't even on the radar..it's only when others perhaps say 'wouldn't it be nice if....'
that they even think of breeding.
It is very hard to weed those out that have every intention of breeding regardless of best intentions of the breeder
to protect their bloodlines/breed by placing breeding restrictions on their pups. I wasn't implying that the woman concerned should breed merely that hopefully
Debbie could steer her in the right direction....perhaps even being able to put said woman off breeding if she gets to read and
ingest all the facts/risks of breeding etc..hence why I suggested getting the lady to read the book of the bitch/breed info on health etc.

If someone is really determined to breed they often find ways round it..like the alternative registry:rolleyes:
But at least this woman has come back to Debbie first so perhaps there is some hope of turning the situation around?

I can understand folk not being honest about saying they are looking for a bitch of a good enough quality to breed with.

I spent over 12months trying to get a bitch and every single breeder I was honest with and I either never got a reply or a vague one of I may have something in the new year.

I then had an Email from a breeder after I commented on her lovely dogs on her website, I mentioned my search and my hopes of a bitch to start breeding, she said her Mum and her had been breeding that breed for 26yrs [and showing some of that time]and still have problems buying in a bitch,waiting 18months on one occassion. We spent alot of time on the phone [2hrs at a time] exchanged emails and pictures of my male and his pedigree, she said there was going to be 3 litters this year that she knew of and would try and sort me out with something.

She said the same as has been said here if only folk were honest from the beginning they would be matched with an appropriate bitch or dog and not a pet quality pup. She too has people come back and ask about which stud etc. she also tells them to go away and get all the health checks and then before she lets them use one of her studs she needs to see the dog and make sure it conforms to standard etc.

At the end of May'06 I got Chase,she is beautiful,loving,cheeky and a joy to have,I will still need to wait till she is older to decide finally,she was PRA tested by the breeder and is clear. I now need to get my male tested,I wasn't going to pay out the money if I wasn't able to get a bitch. The breeder has agreed to mentor me and has seen a lovely stud for me use first time who is also clear of PRA, the owner of him bred Chase's dam. That wont be until spring 2008 by my calculations.

I too will put breeding restriction and export restrictions on my pups.  Can you tell me does it have to be the whole litter or can you put it on certain pups only?

Well that is my experience of being honest from the outset.

Rhona

yes you can put restrictions on certain pups, each one on the kc form you fill out will need name colour and then yes or no to restrictions, so if you say only wanted restrictions on the bitches you can do this

Thanks sara1bee I will keep that piece of info stored somewhere in my tiny mind.

Rhona

When I get enquiries for a bitch puppy to breed from when the person hasn't taken the time and trouble to go to shows and learn about the breed, then I don't have any available either! ;)

On the other hand I've recently had an enquiry from a man who used to show and breed GSDs with his parents.  He is now interested in my breed for his family.  He's been to a couple of shows, asked me about health testing in great depth, has read books and already has a foundation of knowledge about the breed and has visited my girls.  He is interested in a bitch puppy to show and IF she grows to be a good enough example of the breed, would THEN like to have a litter for his next puppy to show.  Now that's a VERY different attitude to someone who rings and says that they want a bitch puppy to breed from! :(  This man I will help all I can, whether it be with a puppy from me or from another breeder, because we need the next generation to be guardians of our breeds, but not people who just want to breed puppies. 

Have you shown your male that you want to use RHODAP ?

No I haven't,my work schedule of working nights doesn't allow it,I have attended a few shows whilst off on holiday. I have been told that my male is a good example of the breed and took him to see the breeder when I went to pick up the bitch.

These breeders I mentioned were each told about my experience with the breed and some of the knowledge I have built up over the years. The breeder who finally gave me a chance was very impressed with my knowledge and my acceptance of advice on various matters,she didn't bombard me with questions she aquired the info during our chats as I did about her.

The stud she has suggested has just been imported and is a USA champ,I have his name and owners name,his parents from what I have been led to believe are from the Uk originally. I hope to visit a show and meet him and his breeder before long and gain some more info as I have only known of his existance for a couple of weeks.

At present I can't drive far due to a painful knee which I am waiting for surgery on.

Rhona

You do have a difficult time.  I hope that your work schedule changes and your knee improves before you have a litter. :)

>Can you tell me does it have to be the whole litter or can you put it on certain pups only?

It's done individually, putting a mark in the appropriate boxes after each individual pups proposed names. However it's impossible to tell at registration age which pups will be good enough to breed from (it can be easy to tell which ones definitely won't, but others can never be anything more than 'promising') so most good breeders endorse the whole lot, even the one/s they intend to keep themselves.

I completely agree with everything everyone has written regarding not lifting the endorsement at all. But playing devils advocate here you can't actually stop her breeding, all you can do is stop her registering the pups. I think a lot of people buying pets won't mind if they're not registered or even if they are dog lovers registered :rolleyes: so I don't think it's a good idea to alienate the owner. You can try explaining about the things that can go wrong and you can strongly advise her to have health tests done and hope that it ends there. I wouldn't tell her straight out that you're not lifting the endorsement for fear that she would go ahead and breed without bothering about testing then.

Hi all,

Thankyou very much for your replies.
Unfortunately the only stipulations on my contract at that time were that Heart and Eye tests were to take place before breeding endorsements would be lifted, to be honest I have only ever sold puppies to people who were looking for pets unless they were interested in showing first. I have changed that recently but, it doesn't help for this situation and I am getting nowhere fast trying to reason with the owner. It doesn't matter how many times I have told her that these tests cannot be done by her regular vet and are to be preformed by specialist only. The answers I keep getting are that her own vet has said her heart is fine :rolleyes: This in itself rings alarm bells with me and just to make matters worse she has rang this morning and told me that the girl is in season now and it just so happens that the stud dog is staying with her at the moment whilst his owner is on holiday She just seems to be one of those that isn't going to listen no matter what I say and will be mating up the girl this season whether or not she can register the pups.
She has said that she will get the eye testing done in September at the next local clinic but is not interested in the fact that she could fail and what on earth would she do then if she is already pregnant. I have also told her how difficult winter puppies and christmas time can be and how much better off she would be waiting till the spring time but to no avail. The girl is 2 1/2 years old and was a very promising puppy but I haven't seen her since and I just feel that she has had plenty of time to get these tests done but just hasn't bothered.
Anyway, moaning isn't going to get me anywhere and I do apologize. I will try and help her to do the right thing but I do think I am fighting a losing battle some people are not interested in doing things properly.

Thanks again

Debbie

I think that you're fighting a losing cause too!  The fact is that she hasn't done the checks that you DID stipulate and so you don't have to lift the restriction and the pups cannot be registered.  The most suitable stud dog happening to be staying with her is just toooo much! :(

If she rings you with any queries, I'd just keep telling her to take the bitch to the Vet and hopefully she'll have a safe bitch bit a bill Vet's bill at the end! :(

I really don't think that you can win with some people - and this is one! :(  If only we'd got crystal balls eh?  I'm gonna ask for hindsight for Christmas! ;)

I agree with Val. Sounds like the owners are determined. :( But have NOT fulfilled your criteria for lifting the endorsement so I would not do it.

But! you could argue both ways, if the owner is going to breed anyway, and you don't lift them,
the pups will not be k.c. reg. that means they will be sold cheaper and may get into the wrong hands.e.g. puppy farms, I would be very worried. I think it would be better to say you will lift the endorcements, when the health checks are done and she has found the right mate.
(I would want to know what she was doing.) They many have beauitful puppies.
Best of luck

It's a pity your contracts did not say "could" be lifted but she has not fulfilled you criteria anyway so I would lay it down crystal clear to her that you will NOT be lifting them in the event of an "accidental" mating taking place, it just might make her think twice but as you say she might go ahead anyway but at least if they are not registered you have not condoned it.

i agree- dont lift the endorsements! if this woman doesnt care about the tests who knows how irresponsible she may be if you lift them? maybe she will have 6 litters?! i wouldnt risk it. at least she will realise selling unregistered puppies is not so easy.

I agree too, if she hasn't met the terms of your contract, you are not obliged to lift the endorsements.  I used to mention lifting the endorsements in my contracts, but I now don't mention lifting them at all. 

Isn't the stud owner supposed to witness the mating to be able to sign the papers? If he/she is on holiday  how is he able to honestly say they did mate and it wasn't some other dog?

Am I being naive here and this sort of thing goes on regularly?

Rhona

Isn't the stud owner supposed to witness the mating to be able to sign the papers?

Yes

Moonmaiden

Thanks for your reply,I didn't think I was wrong

Rhona