Firstly i just want to make it clear that my westie Tommy is not a nasty dog at all.
     

On  thursday 10th aug. my family life had been  quiet.but after tea my 13 yr old daughter who takes Tom for a walk most evenings(unless my family and i go for a walk too) ,came in crying i didnt know what the matter was, because she was screaming. my next door neighbour (who shall we say isnt  a dog lover) banged on my door screaming that her 6yr old granddaughter had been bitten by tom. she shouted at me she was going to ring the police and get tom put down.
i was in shock, as tom had never bitten any of my family or friends ever.when my daughter calmed down she said that the little girl had been pokeing at tom and my daughter with a stick and thatTom  was only defending my daughter
.i ask the neighbour had Tom drawn blood she said no. when i asked if there was a mark she said yes but refused to let me look.it was also strange that when i went out to  them. the little girl was not screaming  or crying or  looked as if she was upset.
so i rang the police myself i was sobbing my heart out while explaining to  the police what had also happened with the neighbours grandaughter.
im not saying that it wasnt  naughty of tommy but  it was`nt completely his vault. the worst thing is that my neighbour use to have a dog(i say that loosely)that was aloud to walk the streets wasnt fed properly. never  taken to a vet .use to jump over my fence poo in my garden and jump back into it`s own and use to scare  anyone passing.the dog  went missing 2-3 years ago then i was told it had been knocked down on a road.and died instantly.....but they didnt seem upset at the fact.my husband is sure but cannot prove that the girls dad has also poked sticks at tom or thrown something at him.speaking of which the next morning the father came out of his back door and threw a bucket of water at tom for no reason.

I am a responsable owner  i dont let tommy go out of the garden(unless with me or my husband or daughter who is also responsable.) he is checked every year by the vet
i have insurance for him too and because of this iv just paid £80  to have him castrated.  and he is chipped.  We never let Tom off his lead
do  you think i am in the wrong? well i dont, but it`s always the same those who dont look after themselfs or there animals  seem to get away with it.
By the way the police told me  Tom wasnt  going to be put down and  i should just make sure i put a muzzle on if he`s out. 
well thats my story .thanks ally.

What a dreadful tale, I feel for you, your daughter and also the neighbours Grandaughter

It does remind me why I would never let a child take a dog out for a walk though :(

Glad that the Police are not insisting that Tom is PTS

I think it's just one of those unfortunate things, the other child should certainly not have been poking your daughter or Tom with  a stick !!! and nor should her own father be throwing buckets of water over him in his own garden.

I'd just be very careful and not let your daughter take him out for her and Tom's safety - unless she is supervised by you or an adult. I hope things settle down
quickly for you,

best wishes,

Lindsay
x

you are right about the father not throwing water at tommy in his own garden. as i wrote Tommy is usually with myself or my husband it was just one of those things that i asked my daughter to take Tom for a walk. one thing i didnt mention is the little girl is a very nastie crule girl with other animals .but thank you anyway. i feel im not alone.

What a terrible shame, just keep Tommy well away from these people and live your lives as usual.  They can't do anything to Tommy and there wasn't even a bite mark from what you have said.  Don't allow these people to intimidate yourself your daughter or Tommy.

I'm afraid if they threw water at my dog, I would fill up a bucket and chuck it back on them. Tell them that is what they will get if they do it again!

But I do agree with the comment about children walking the dog, as responsible as your daughter is, children don't have the foresight of an adult to see what is going on around them or predict a reaction as we would.  An adult would have seen the neighbours child poking Tommy and moved him away or told the child not to do that, a child will not react quickly enough.

It is a lesson learnt by all. Try to put it behind you now, take comfort that no action will be taken no matter what they say, you have it from the police yourself.

I'm afraid that I wouldn't allow a 13 year old to be responsible for walking a dog who had aggression problems within the family as recently as January this year. :(

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=651880;hl=;hlm=and#pid651880

Oh dear! Having read the link that Val posted it appears that Tommy has a history of aggression doesn't he? I realise that he may have had bad experiences before you got him that may be at the root of his behaviour but certainly, he may need careful watching and for sure, needs to be walked by you or your husband and not your daughter.

My 13 year old daughter does occasionally walk my dog but he has to have a halti on and his lead at a length that he really cant walk any other way than right by her side - so that if he pulls or moves to get to anybody the halti tightens and she can steer his head away.  I made this decision because of one instance that scared me.  You dont mention what steps you are taking to work on the agression but I'm sure you must be.   I have had so much good advice on here that believe me has helped, it includes using the halti, using a crate, contacting a behaviourist (first appointment 4th Sept) and reading books. If you havent got around to doing any of this I really recommend it.  I hope you get this all sorted.  Max.   

Oh , That link from Val does put a slightly different spin on things, and means it is not a first time unexpected reaction as I thought.  You must take every precaution that it never happens again and it certainly does mean that only an adult must take charge of him.

Searching for previous posts can give a lot of background behind a situation. ;)

I must say that  val seems to be very negative towards my dog .my point is that over the past few months he has calmed down quite a lot.(remeber we got him from aanother family who didnt look after him)if i were to poke you with something are you saying you would let me do it? no of course not. if you have read my message i put ,we have taken him to the vet. and are hoping to get him into a training programe.this girl in question is not a nice person to poke anything at anyone.there was`nt any mark, that`s what i am saying. i put my message  on for support not to be critisised. The family in question are not fit to look after themselfs, never mind an animal. as for tommy he is the one who need`s support  yes i have put a message on here about his snapping but that doesnt make him a criminal.as for my daughter taking him for a walk that was my mistake. I am at fault for that, and i have said  usually I or my husband take Tommy for a walk and he is never aggressive with anyone else. Are you saying that no other dogs growl? well all my family have different breeds of dogs and at one time or another there dogs have done the same. i must make this clear  Tommy is not a nasty dog. What ever you might think. I might not of got the support  i wanted from Val but please let me assure you. All my other neighbour`s and my friends &family all agree &support me  how can it be that my neighbour  are the victims when they are the one`s who started this. have been horrible to Tommy in the past,& throw water at him (Over my fence) and  shouldnt be able to have animals in there care i have done everything for tommy.Please dont leave a message if all you are going to do is   criticise  I  came on here  because i thought you might be able to help and support me.

I think what Val is saying is that with a history of aggression, allowing a child to walk the dog is incomprehensible.  My dogs would not retaliate in this fashion, they might whine and try to get away but when mishandled in the past by children in the process of learning how to treat dogs they have never shown the least tendancy to bit them.  It is not normal behaviour for a dog and should not be treated as such.

You asked in your first post

'do  you think i am in the wrong?

People have given you their honest opinions. No one has said that you are a criminal but people have said that, given the dogs past history, it probably wasn't wise to allow a 13 year old take him for a walk. *That* is an honest opinion.

allyb, I cant see where Val has negativity towards your dog... she simply brought up a very relevant previous thread.... If people are to help you, they need the full facts..... :)

if i were to poke you with something are you saying you would let me do it? no of course not.

But this is a dog, and dogs react differently, ideally knowing he has a 'history' you need to not put him in situations he can't handle.
If you know about this bloke and his family then you shouldn't have let your daughter take the dog out incase this happened.
Val was just making a point that this isn't a one off incident.

I wouldn't say tommy was a nasty dog he needs to be understood more, which is going to take time and gentle handling of situations.

Personally mine and many dogs prefer the "runs off and hides behind legs" tecnique not the retaliation approach :)

Ally - way back in January we had this discussion with you about dogs knowing abour "right" and "wrong" and then, we all advised you to seek the help of a behavourist .

Back in January - which is now 8 months ago, you said (and I'm quoting from your post of 19th January here) !but he can get very agressive with people,even my mum  he doesnt like.he doesnt usually like it if i am cuddleing my children  he has even gone to snap at me and it`s just im  concerned he  might hurt someone.

Did you ever see a behavourist?    If you didn't go down that road then, then I would strongly urge that you do so now.

Margot

I can't see any negativity towards the dog in Val's comment.  She was stating a fact about the dog and an opinion about allowing a child to walk a dog with a history of aggression.

I don't think anyone is criticising you for the sake of it - far from it - but you know that Tommy has a history of aggressive behaviour. Presumably you have taken some of the advice received back in January of which mine was:

It's very easy to let small dogs get away with behaviour that wouldn't be tolerated for a moment in a larger breed and sadly, I've seen far too many terriers who are actually terrorists because their aggression hasn't been dealt with. Worse, it gets excused because the dog is "nice" at other times.  Having had an iffy puppyhood, your dog almost certainly has "issues" that developed before you had him and unless you are totally confident in dealing with his aggression I would also recommend an early visit to your vet to discuss referring him to a behaviourist. 

And to be honest, that advice hasn't changed except to say that it really isn't fair to ask your daughter to manage the sort of situation that has a certain predictability to it given the way your neighbours behave towards Tommy and Tommy's potential for biting first and asking questions afterwards. You say in your post that your 13 yr old daughter takes Tom for a walk most evenings and this is clearly not a very good idea unless she is accompanied by you or your husband.

I can't stress how careful you must be to avoid this sort of thing happening again because at the very least, you could be taken to court and end up with a hefty fine and at worst, poor Tommy could be pts if it is proved that he is out of control. Please, if you haven't already, get some behavioural advice because the older he gets and the more opportunities he has to be aggressive, the less easy it may be to help him.

I am sorry if i sounded harsh. but  I  did not know that my neighbours would be out in there garden, when this terrible story started. yes you are right about one thing  we are seeking advice from a behavourist since i wrote in January tom has  been more calmer  but I have 2 niece aged 3&8 and my own children if i thought that Tommy was a danger i would of moved him from our family home .he is sitting at my feet a sleep at this moment  not knowing how much heartache and stress i have gone through. I love my dog  he is my life as much as my children are I know he is not a savage  he may have problems but he is still  A loving dog to me and my family but what has happened has really scared me and iv only tried to explain that the people who caused all of this  dont care about anything if they did they would of looked after there own dog better. please do not think bad of me
it is a week today this all happened and it still upsets me  I am aresponsible dog owner and do everything  i can to make sure tommy is looked after. how i would want to be treated.may be Tommy and I are alike as i can be snappy too.
thanks for your advice

may be Tommy and I are alike as i can be snappy too.


I'm glad that you mentioned that, as that is the whole key to the problem, :-)  Some dogs like people can be friendly, happy and not have a bad vibe about them, just as Tommy is at home, but the minute a person is provoked or approached aggressively some of us will become foul mouthed and violent towards others.

When people are like this the ones with common sense will get some type of therapy to help them to sort it out, and this is what a lot of us are advising for Tommy, so that when he is put in a bad situation his first reaction is not retaliation, that retaliation should be his last.

This is only a small proportion of his character, and if kept away from anyone provoking him he will probably be a happy go lucky dog.  Unfortunately you have neighbours who do not respect dogs (and probably people) so for Tommy's sake try and find a good behaviourist who will teach him how not to react.

I'm really pleased that Val posted your previous post, as it helps us all to help you much better. :-)

I am aresponsible dog owner
Telling yourself that you're a responsible dog owner, as you keep doing, is very different to behaving like one.  7 months is a long time to be arranging for someone who can teach you how to teach a snappy dog what is acceptable behaviour.  You need help to sort out Tommy's problems and accept responsibility for them.  You didn't listen to the good advice that you were given in January, I do hope that you will listen to what people are saying to you now.

If I hadn't posted the link to your previous post, you would have got advice relevant only to the part of Tommy's story that you told and posters would not have had the full picture.  As you can see by the later replies, they are very different to the first responces, and you would have thought that Tommy's behaviour was OK, which it is not. :)

I recently needed to see a behaviourist with one of my dogs (its not a story I really want to tell here for various reasons) and what I did was make an appointment with my vet which took a day or two, then he filled in a referral form, and within 14 days we saw the behaviourist. :)

Isn't it actually the law as well that no child under the age of 16 is allowed to walk a dog on their own? It's what we have always been told at dog club.

I have never been told that a child under 16 could take a dog for a walk now iv seen the message i will take note of it.

On this site it says that a child under 14 walking a dog will not be considered to be 'in charge' of the dog, and the responsibility for its (the dogs) actions will be on the habitual owner.

I can't find a law about the age at which a child may not legally walk a dog.

No this is what I was wondering, whether there is an actual law or not. I know the law for the proscribed breeds on the DDA says 16, but that's different.... Still, basically then it means nobody under 14 is considered responsible and then really it makes sense they should be accompanied. I know I would not let any of my children walk a dog of mine on their own (oldest is 14), not necessarily because I don't trust them, but because I don't trust other people and THEIR dogs. Breed matters too -I'd let my husband's children (almost 17 and 19) walk my Golden Retrievers -friendly breed, easy to train, obeys everyone, not small -but I would not let them walk a small breed (in case of a large aggressive dog attacking) or a Malinois (difficult breed who tend to just listen to their owner).

I think this may go on for ages as iv put at the top of this message that usually my husband ,myself or the whole family take tom for a walk. i have said i was at fault  for letting my daughter take tom on her own  .Do you really think i would knowingly let Tommy out if at the time i thought he wasnt safe for my daughter to take out ? no is the answer.he had never ever ever bitten anyone .the girl was the one who poked my daughter& Tommy (outside my house)with a stick
Tommy didnt just snap  he felt treatend
thank you for the good advice and the not so good i feel now that this will continue regardless of my replys or not .thank you again ally.

Ally the girl was horrid and in the wrong but Tommys response was n't good either. Maybe it reminded him of past experiences from before you got him. However what people are saying is that you need to deal with these lingering problems. He has obviously improved in the house with you and your family as you now describe him as a loving dog, but as a responsible owner you need to take things further and make sure this cannot happen again. I doubt you are going to be able to change your neighbours behaviour successfully so you have to make sure Tommy's response to them is more appropriate. Please take him to your vet explain what has happened and get a referral to a behaviourist. Then people will be more supportive and be more prepared to give further advice.

I just wanted to say im sorry if iv sounded harsh in any of my replys`. I have been in shock for most of this week after what happened.I will be seeking an behaviourist(as soon as i can find one in my area and saved up the money)so thank you  .I might not of agreed with everything  but i am greatful all the same
untill next time.
ally

If you have Tommy insured, you may well find that you are covered.   Do not leave this too long, or you could find youself in a position that none of us would wish to find ourselves :(

Margot

Ally, make sure you get your vet to refer you and Tommy to a behaviourist - please don't just pick one from adverts, because there's no guarantee they'll have any qualifications at all. :( Some are mere franchisees with very little practical experience of dogs, and could do more harm than good.