Has anybody heard of Pam's methods?

I'm trying to calm a hyperactive Springer.  She has been diagnosed with mental problems.

Unfortunately she has been prescribed Prozac as she is so hyper.

She will not listen to any training and will run around the house all night.

She has also just started to bite arms and ankles again, not sure if this if for attention.

She is 8 months old now and I was hoping to train her to work, but it is impossible to train her, she finds it impossible to learn.

All she wants to do whilst out is chase feathers and leaves, and does nothing else, her hearing is switched off.

Any help about this type of problem would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Hi
who diagnosed her 'mental problems'?
what type of training have you been trying and how old was she when you began?

A working English Springer, by their very nature are a hyperactive breed...and will literally go on to the point of sheer exaustion, usually adrenalin induced... and at 8 months old will be bang centre of 'Kevin' mode...  a nightmare in the laziest of breeds, but in a ESS, can be the devil incarnate itself.......these are not mental problems, but a very 'normal' ESS....

So it really would depend on what the diagnosis actually was, in terms of 'mental' problems...

As for Pam Whyte, I would not discount her completely... I have, not used, but have taken some of her way of thinking and partially applied it to one of my girls (a Lab with adrenalin induced hyperactiveness...who I have fondly named the Spawn of Satan :D ) She has just turned 10months, but has always been this way...
She is completely untrainable in the conventional way... any command will not be heard, completely bypassed in her exuberance, and the louder I speak, the more hyper she becomes...therefore I have taken all spoken commands out of the equasion... The world we live in is a silent one....she lives to please but never gets it quite right and we have come to an understanding... I dont speak to her, I touch her and massage her, (she wont tolerate being cuddled) she is a nightmare to live with, but will show her little socks off in the showring, and becomes the very essence of how I want her to behave, yet remains completely untrained.... I have 8 other Labs by the way, and have had 2 working ESS.

So yes, if you think that Pams way would work for the both of you, then I would not rule it out.... be strong and have the patience of a saint, you will need it... but never give up

Have you thought of using a crate, to stop her running around the house... maybe with a light blanket covering it... giving her, her own special place and safe haven

what are pams methods.????

i dont know if id consider giving prozac to a DOG,esp a pup :(

Hi Michelle, Pams methods are all completely natural, using understanding, love and extreme patience combined with consistancy... she abhors any other method...ie: no check chains, not squirty things, or shouting... but a simple calm long haul, but get there approach.... Pam uses the theory, and I quote "There is no such thing as a disobedient dog - only a confused dog."

Her book, 'Living with an Alien' is wonderful, very informative but also very amusing...it gives an insight into the world of dogs, that many of us have never considered....

Jollyboys
I really dont think your dog is 'suffering from mental problems'. I honestly believe that if you have not even tried to train her until she is now 7months old, then it is simply your lack of knowledge on the breed....Thats is not the dogs fault, but she now has to suffer the consequences....and now that she has reached the Kevin stage, you really do have your work cut out.... but get her off prozac.... that will be confusing her even more....how can you consider training a drugged up dog??

ESS should begin training at around 8weeks, as soon as you got her home....

I have a girl who is a complete 'Alien' ;) and would never dream of giving her any drugs whatsoever....(I actually missed that part when reading your original post) :(

pam methods sound good to me then!

She was diagnosed by a pet behaviourist, she came around to the house and watched her behaviour for about 4 hours.

She witnessed this obsession with blowing things and said she was untrainable and over hyperactive even for a Springer.

We then had a professional dog trainer come and see her, she said exactly the same, after 1 hour of trying to get through to her she gave up and said she was untrainable, until we can lower her alert levels.

I'm worried why she started to bite again after stopping from her early days.

I can never let her off the lead as she would never come back.  It took me hour and a half to catch her last time I let her off on the beach.

I have only started training her in the last few weeks about 7 months old.  I have just been trying heel, and 'hup', and 'hup' stay.  I have abandoned the recall for now as she just simply will not hear anything whist off the lead.  At least with the lead on I can try and get her to do stuff.  No retrieves at the moment either, same reason as the recall.

I have taken her to a pro gun dog trianer who thought she was completly deaf, as she would not do anyhting for him.

Am i reading this correctly, or have you not trained anything for the last months or is it only gundog work you are starting now?

She's still very young for doing anything other than sit stay and recall.  I wouldn't be introducing anything more until she was over a year old.  If the basics aren't 100% in place then don't move on.

"mental problems" is an awful phrase to use and belongs in the dark ages.  Sounds typical springer to me! 

Which 'pro gundog trainer' did you take her to?  PM me if you'd rather.

I've been looking into working cocker spaniels recently, and I kept reading that it was strongly recommened in the gundog world that any sort of training doesn't start with cockers until they're 12 months, unlike springers which you can start training much earlier such at 7 months!
I think I would be tempted to find a large enclosed field or buy a long line, encourage the dog to run about to try and burn off as much energy as possible, and then attempt some simple training one the dog is tired. At agility training there's two lurchers that insist on having 'lurcher moments' where they sprint around at full speed, and when eventually they start getting a bit tired and slow down, they are then more in a mind frame to focus on the training.

That is taken to mean specialist gundog training - not the general recall, walking to heel on a loose lead, sit, down, stay etc. It's taken as read that they'll be pretty much in place by the time the formal gundog training starts at around 12 months. Not that you leave a pup totally untrained till then. ;)

Well I would hope so :)

A friend of mine had 2 springers. Totally the wrong dogs for her. She made the mistake of thinking more exercise = calmer dogs. It didn't. More exercise meant madder, fitter, more desperate dogs. At this point one of them became completely obsessed with any moving lights on carpets and walls - you know, the type of reflection of a watchface in the sun - and nearly lost the plot completely. He looked like he had a mental problem - but really he had nowhere calm to expell his energy.

They were absolutely mental. Trashed her house (she went out to work  full time - could it get any worse!?), trashed their kennels, and drove the neighbours round the twist. She rehomed them in the end...

She was diagnosed by a pet behaviourist, she came around to the house and watched her behaviour for about 4 hours.

She witnessed this obsession with blowing things and said she was untrainable and over hyperactive even for a Springer.

We then had a professional dog trainer come and see her, she said exactly the same, after 1 hour of trying to get through to her she gave up and said she was untrainable, until we can lower her alert levels.


This seems unbelievable to me. First off, have you consulted anyone who deals with clicker training? Secondly, have you tried changing the food as certain foods make dogs hyper active! I really do not believe there is such a thing as an untrainable dog......especially not a pup.

Hi,

Ok, so we need to get her hearing switched back on, which is really hard for a very hyperactive dog, but it can be done. (I take it you have had her hearing checked)

Bring in our good old friend the whistle! :-)

I would start from scratch again now, blow the whistle at feeding times to first associate her with it and it being a good thing.

At home, then blow the whistle for her to come and take some chicken, chicken wings or mince meat from your hands, do this for a few weeks, this is the start of recall training for her, even in her hyperactivity she will come to realise whistle means food. And whistle means good.

Once she has got the concept of that, then you can gradually train, it will be very slow and you will have to be very patient, some of the most hyperactive dogs can end up being the best of working dogs.

A lot of Pam Whytes methods seem to be around the fact that a lot of hyperactivity/aggression may be caused through a dog not being full, and that slim dogs are a big no no as far as she is concerned, as we know foods in themselves can cause hyperactivity to be worse, personally and others may not agree with me, but I would have her on a BARF diet to see if this helps at all.

It is worrying that you have had two experts tell you that she has 'mental problems' and a gundog expert say she is untrainable, maybe they are right we also suffer from hyperactivity, attention defasite (sp) and dogs can have problems just the same.

Sad to hear she is on Prozac, is she trainable on Prozac?

As for the biting, I would give the same advice as to any pup, a big OW to show her it hurts, and then pop her in time out everytime she does it for a few minutes, let her back in big fuss, and if she does it again, another big OW and repeat.

Do you have other dogs at all? I feel a hyperactive dog is better with other dogs to run and play with, if she is lead walked all the time (which I understand due to recall) then she is just not burning up her energy enough, Springers have a lot of energy, to make up for this play ball with her in your garden for upto an hour, I know she will not retrieve, but have a few balls let her chase and catch and then throw the next.

Feed and exercise her well, and you may just have her chilled enough to train.

Unfortunately, with ESS, excersise is NOT the way to deal with excess energy, by there nature they will literally go on until they drop with sheer exastion....the adrenalin rush simply pushes them on.... Brain work is the only real way to harness this..... playing with balls etc, will only stimulate and push for more excersise.... not calm the dog down.... A Springer will work a grid for 10hours or more, where a Lab will go in for a retrieve, and lie down and snooze between commands....

clicker training is an excellent idea, if nothing else, will get the dog to concentrate on the clicker noise, even if training is not going to plan... its still brainwork.... ESS NEED constant brainwork...

Personally, I would go right back to the very beginning... no long lead, no recalls etc. but simply on a short lead and persistant heel work.... heel work is training and it is a brain drain, dont move on until you have her walking to heel.... sorry, but a working bred ESS is not the same as any other dog when it comes to training.... they are highly intelligent, and geared up for anything.... they are not placid, they are forceful, adrenalin induced working dogs.... and do not, in general, make ideal pets.... But once you get there, they are an absolute delight to own...

few behaviourists have dealt with working springers, they deal mainly with pet owners, not working

Join a gundog club, perhaps the URC, (United Retriever Club) and go on their training programmes, these people are working their dogs, day in, day out....

Have you spoken to the breeder of your pup?

edited to add this little bit    "Labs are born half trained, springers die half trained" ;)

This sounds so like my daughters springer Kaycee, she was like that when she got her at about 1 yr old, untrainable, or so we were told.

To see her now she is a completely different dog, the only thing she does not like is being put on the lead, but this we know why, as her previous owners had her tied up in their kitchen 24/7 and she was so cowed it was unbelievable.   My daughter has put in a lot of hard work with her, she still has a way to go but is getting a lot better, she loves chasing balls, if we are down the beach and if we see anyone with a ball we have to ask them to pick it up or she would be away with it, she always has a ball in her mouth and when I go to visit she always wants you to play with her throwing toys for her to retrieve.   We dont have any papers for her so do not know what breeder she came from, but, I think by her actions she is from working stock.

I will be seeing one of the members of this board shortly and will have kaycee with me, (she doesnt know it yet, )but I am going to ask her to have a look at her and let us know if she is a proper springer or maybe a mix as its a breed I dont know anything about. Kaycees "tail" is always wagging, so pleased to see you and just wants to be loved which she is by all the family.

You will have to keep her mind active as they are a breed that is "on the go" all the time.   Good luck, but I dont think she needs Prozac, I dont take them now, never mind giving them to a dog, ive never, ever, heard of that one!!!!!

I just found a article on Pamela Whyte and I do NOT like it. Point number 1, she actually TRAINED 4 Pitbulls (so they could be kept) that had bitten a man so severly his leg had to be amputated? Sorry,but to me that is irresponsible, a dog that has done that kind of damage should be PTS....... Secondly, she keeps going on about wolves and being a pack leader, so she seems out of touch with modern methods.
http://www.trustworthydogs.com/rapport_article.html

Oh, didnt know that :( I have only read her book.... which is quite amusing (personal opinion ;) ) but have to agree, that is completely irresponsible... after reading this little peice, I would not recommend going by her methods, certainly not as a novice dog owner....

oh gone off her abit now :(

its like alot of things though..."pick & mix" what suits yourself & the dog!

I don't want to hear all thins about "mad springers from working stock"

Daughter & OH, after 12 dogless years (because they were abroad in the Far East), now settled in US, have gone and bought ....yes.... a springer puppy from working stock:rolleyes:

They decided against a lab (which they had beford & which both have grown up with) because.......they have a lake at the bottom of their (unfenced, as per norm for Conneticutt) "back yard"

I can see Sarah having to do lots and lots and lots of training :rolleyes:

Margot

" Kaycees "tail" is always wagging" I then looked at the beginning of the post and light dawned - sorry, kayc :-) :-) :-)

:D  at least you can tell the difference between us then... my 'tail' simply wobbles :P

Sorry Kayc !! I should have worded that differently but her name is kaycee!!!!! LOL!!!! I did not want to say she is a docked springer.

hi,

Just wanted to add a response in defence of "working" springers.  Both my springers were gamekeeper bred from working stock and I have had both since puppies purely as pets.  They have been the best dogs ever, easy to train and they are both very laid back and unspringerlike! Whether we have just been lucky, I don't know, but from my experience would have another working dog again.

Nikki.

All,

Thanks so much for your posts.  I'll try and answer some of the questions within.

Kayc - She did go to puppy training school for socialising and training.  So sit, down, stand, recall, etc.  She did not do to bad at this but when she got to about 5 months she just started this leave and feather chasing, so any training outside was pointless as she could be dragged away from the leaves and feathers.  All gundog trainers say never start proper training until they are at least 6 months old, until this time just do play training, which I tried but she was always preoccupied.  I joined the local gundog club, one of the guy's there said she 'needed a good hiding', I've not been back.  What should I ask the breeder, how could he help?

lucyandmeg - see above for training history.

goldmali - the behaviourist and trainer suggested clicker training, but she just walks off when we try, she gets bored after two clicks and treats.  If she is distracted she will spit out food treats and not eat anything that is put under her nose.  Even hot dog sausages or chicken.

Springerhouse - you are a very lucky person, I envy you.

Re:  Clicker training, where have you been trained?  If YOU haven't had any training then more than likely you are doing it incorrectly and that is why your dogs not interested.

I ahve a very hyperactive Spanish and she loves clicker training and does understand it, but you have to ensure that you are doing it at the right time.  Plus you don't start off clicking her to sit stay, you are best letting her do her own thing and if she sits and looks click at that and give her food.  If she lies down click that and she'll soon understand that when she does certain things and not the mental behaviour that she gets something.

Clicker training for people is not as easy as you think.  A great game to play with people is doing the clicker game and it just shows you how bad you really are at it :d :d  Even more fun when you've all had a few to drink and especially if you are all manic Spanish Water Dog owners!

Oh LOL we did that at training once -I was SOOO bad at it but I still ended up with loads of chocolates. :D :D

Yes, that's a good game!   :D

Lindsay
x

The behviourist showed us what to try and do.

But food is not really a driver for her.  she ignores hot dog sausage and chicken, we have tried all sorts of treats, but not one comes above chasing stuuf in the wind or sunlight.

I knew a dog that had this sort of chasing shadows etc. problem.  He really was a difficult pet and, although I'm not a behaviourist so it's just a layman's opinion, his problems were more intractable than the average cat/deer/sheep chasing, barking when left or poor recall problem.   His owners were extremely dedicated to helping him.

He was medicated, which I know many people are against but he had such a lot to overcome and the medication was to help him with that.

It turned out that the owners of the dog had made the mistake of thinking that this dog was so active, that he needed constant stimulation, when the reverse turned out to be true.  When they stopped taking him to classes here there and everywhere, stopped walking him every couple of hours, throwing balls and frisbees for him etc the dog started taking deep, therapeutic sleeps.  With less activity, he became a calmer dog.

Unfortunately he died before they could do much more with him, from something unrelated to his behaviour.  As I said, I'm not a behaviourist but having witnessed the above, I know that there are times when it can be more thorny than just a training issue.  If the training methods aren't working, don't beat yourself up about it, look elsewhere for the solution.  If you think you have gone as far as you can with a behavioural approach, perhaps you should seek veterinary referral (incidentally, were you referred to the behaviourist by your vet?) and get to the bottom of these "mental problems."

Good luck.

It's strange that you mentio this Lillith.  Someone asked me about 2 pups which they were having problems with in my breed.  Both parents had a working brain and I asked that although we say that you have to keep their mind occupied were they doing too much especially with it being the school holidays?  I've not heard back but I had a feeling that this may have been the problem.  It will be interesting to see if I get any feedback.

This is quite interesting!  While Xanthe is totally exasperating at home and garden, she is amazingly calm when in the showring etc... walking to heel on lead has never been a problem and is reasonably good offlead, as long as I keep another dog on lead with me.... she will stary very close.....

At home I have seperated my 2 older girls fromthe pack (mainly because Tia and pups, not a deliberate ploy)and Xanthe is with them 22hours out of 24 and is calm and relaxed (they wont tolerate her behaviour and are old hands at knowing how to deal with wayward pups ;) ) so in this respect I am very lucky.... so I do give her as little stimulus as I can but still maintain a little training (as much as kevin stage, and attention span will permit :rolleyes: )

which means, out in the run with the older girls, she relaxes and is quite calm, but the moment I appear she is on a bouncing roll again... wall of death round the fence, paws hit the ground for trampoline use only

I had never really thought about it like Diane, perhaps their is something in that theory...

Although with my springers, the harder they worked, the more they wanted to... Megan was very hyper, but very, very focused... to the point of shaking with anticipation of a command....

Ach, I'm waffling again ;)

its hard! i cant use one at all...im clickerexic

>she actually TRAINED 4 Pitbulls (so they could be kept) that had bitten a man so severly his leg had to be amputated?<

Am i the only only one to see this as a positive thing? Pamela must be one heck of a trainer to rehabilitate 4 'aggressive' pitbulls!No matter what they had done,she managed to turn them around and save them from being euthanised!I'm sure to their owner she's worth her weight in gold.

I think her methods sound good,i would definately give them a try.

Jollyboys,what brand food do you feed?

She's on Royal Canin Junior for medium breeds.

We try and ignore all the behaviour issues she shows in the house, but she just continues to wreck the house.

I take her for walk at night and train with her twice a day 10 minutes a time.

NO dog, regardless of breed, that has injured somebody as seriously a sthat should be kept.

Some thoughts.

One of my dogs was totally hyper until I changed the food, total transformation within a week Some foods definately make a dog hyper ;)

Is it possible that the dog is overfed?  I ask this because the only dog I ever had who didn't respond to treats was actually getting too much food, a little less food and he was really interested ;)

Are the treats on offer valuable enough?   Many commercial treats are a waste of time, ask yourself what you'd work for, something really tasty and smelly (eg. smoked salmon/garlic chicken ;) ) or something bland? (eg. Bread and butter)  sometimes it takes a while to figure out what food gets your dog excited :)

Personally I wouldn't try to train any pup for 10 mins at a time, it's too long for them and they get bored ;)

I've been more successful training pups and older dogs (and children) with the little and often rule.  Start with a minute every half hour and work up to a few minutes at a time with a maximum of 5 minutes once the dog is really 'into it' and paying attention.  The dog will learn more and have more opportunities to get it right, and you will have more patience and won't feel frustrated at the dog not getting it ;)  I'd also stick to absolute basics until the dog is totally reliable in them.

Hi,

As said above you need to try a lot of different treats - there is bound to be something that gets your little one salivating, however while clicker training is easiest with food as the reinforcer as it's quick and easy to deliver, it doesn't have to be food, the reinforcer can be a toy, say a ball on a rope or even a feather, just something your dog loves that will make working for you and concentrating on you worth while.  If you do use a ball or similar just short 20 second plays after the click and then put the ball in your pocket again.  You will be able to do it, it just takes figuring out what makes your dog tick.  As others have said he just sounds like a normal loony excitable pup.  Have fun with him and the training and don't make sessions too long.

Karen

Oh, and just use the reinforcer that you decide on for training sessions, so it stays special.