Just came across this clip of the dog and handler featured in the 'this dog can dance'. It's a collection of various clips, including some puppy clips. Brace yourself for some emotional music as well!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlKTYyjDwnI

hmm, seems odd to me that people are always going on about animals in circus'speforming tricks, yet people think this is different? Cant see point myself.

Likewise, Sam.

Anything that gives people an incentive to train their dogs can only be a good thing!

Too many owners train their dog to walk to heel and come back, then take it for the same walk at the same time every day for the rest of its life.

If more people did something with their dogs, obedience, agility, HTM, working trials, whatever, we'd have better owners and well socialised, happier dogs.

Completely forgot one of my main points :rolleyes:

In training class most dogs enjoy learning tricks more than obedience exercises. There is nothing different between training a dog to sit or bow, both involve the dog learning a natural action on cue but strange things happen to their owners.

Successful sit trainers reward the dog, give it a little smile and are relieved that their dog hasn't shown them up. Dog thinks it okay.

Successful bow trainers reward the dog, big smile, the rest of the class/family smile. Dog really enjoys it.

Unsuccessful sit trainers get stressed, in a class situation they are frustrated that everyone else has good dogs, body language and voice tense up, its the end of the world to them and they will never be able to sit stay, sit at heel, sit for titbit/dinner, etc. When the dog finally does it they get a treat and a grudging smile, dog isn't sure if it was right.

Unsuccessful bow trainers don't mind too much, they wish their dog could do it like the others but they will never have to use it.

In general dogs prefer and are more successful at learning tricks. I teach some tricks in my classes specifically to show people how their reactions matter in the hope that they will train serious stuff in the same happy way.

The key feature of this dog to me is it's obvious joy. It's not being forced into anything, and it's tail never stops wagging. The owner loves and cares for her dog, who is now 13.5 years old. Where's the harm? As for point of it - to have fun! Which clearly both parts of the team are having!
To me the problem with 'circus tricks' was the way they were taught using punishment. The animals were to entertain the public, being dressed up and the like, with their welfare of little importance. They were tools for people to earn money.

There are many people who don't see the point of breed showing and breeding or are even outrightly against it, yet a post where somone is celebrating a win or remembering the successes of their dog's life time would not be the place to air such thoughts.

>To me the problem with 'circus tricks' was the way they were taught using punishment.

So there'd be no problem if they were all clicker-trained, for example? :)

Many years ago I saw a circus act featuring performing dogs, doing the sorts of things that service display teams do, jumping through flaming hoops, riding on the shoulders of someone riding a bike etc. Displays like that are still warmly applauded at agricultural shows all over the country. Logically, why is it any different if a dog does the performing rather than any other species of animal? Just curious.

Addition, because I left it too late to add to the original post :rolleyes: :

Don't misunderstand me; I too have a feeling that performing dogs are somehow 'different' to performing tigers. But I can't work out the logic behind that feeling, and need to justify it. I don't know enough about tigers (for example) to be able to state categorically that they're happy doing tricks, whereas I've met loads of dogs and they appear to be happy doing it. But I also know that people like to clicker-train their dogs to do all sorts of things, like wag their tails or stop wagging their tails, so now I know that's not necessarily a natural response. It gets more complicated the more I learn! But as I believe all species deserve their 'dignity', then I can't claim that it's okay for one species to perform in front of the public and not another. So probably that makes me a hypocrite. So be it.

If they were clicker trained, for me it would be a great leap forward. But I would still want other criteria to be met, such as the animal's welfare to be of greater importance than making money or entertaining an audience. I would also never be comfortable with animals being dressed up for people's own amusement, even if they were clicker trained to accept the clothing to the point that they were postively excited about getting clothes on. I suppose that makes me a bit hypocritical, and helps me understand why HTM moves bother people, as it simply means I draw the line at clothes, while others draw it at tricks.
I believe part of the difference is that if a circus animal didn't perform, it would be cast off as un-neccesary. Whereas if I had a dog that for whatever reason didn't throughly enjoy doing heelwork to music/breed showing/agility etc. (perhaps because it had bad hips and wasn't comfortable with much movement) it would still be a much loved pet.
I suppose theoretically if someone had a tiger and clicker trained it to do circus-like tricks, kept it in an environment that met all the tiger's needs, and if it ever didn't feel like performing the tiger wouldn't suffer as result, I wouldn't have a problem with it. In reality however, I doubt anyone could meet the requirement to keep the tiger in an environment that meets all its needs. With dogs however, a domesticated animal with far less demanding needs than a tiger, and whose needs we probably understand better, it is much easier to meet these requirements.

I truely emphasise with your comment that the more you learn, the more complicated it gets!

Of course you can then add the need of conversation into equation. Perhaps you can't provide a tiger with all it needs, but by keeping one or two in confinement you can help inspire interest in people to donate thousands or pounds in the interest of protecting wild tigers - does that make it acceptable?
I don't think I'm quite ready to decide where I stand on that one! It's quite exhausting figuring out and putting into words exactly where you stand on an issue! Although I've been happy to discuss this =)

I really appreciate that post, Brak3n, because you've understood that I'm not being critical, just trying to analyse logically where the difference lies; whether there's a difference in fact or merely in people's perception. And you've met me halfway and thought and discussed impersonally. Thank you for your sensible, open minded reply. :)

I think posts like this are good as I often question my feelings about different topics.

I'll state my interest right away I do a bit of HTM, do train with clicker and am too lazy to get over ambitous:D I see your point about circus animals though in fact I feel the same way. Never knew that was your issue Sam mind you I've never asked you.

I think it's the circumstances that an animal like a tiger would live in that would worry me but can see point about how it could be used to bring people's attention to plight of wild tigers and endangered species in general. Can the end ever justify the means?

This is going off at a tangent but it does relate in a way. I've never had a problem with the idea of feeding snakes rats etc UNTIL I got myself 2 pet rats and now I feel totally different . Silly or what?

The opinion on traditional circus animals versus dogs doing tricks differs because of their classification and natural environment.  The issue with animals such as lions and tigers is that they are endangered wild animals taken out of their natural habitat (wide open deserts/jungles/savannah/plain) where their 'purpose' (for want of a better term) is to roam free and hunt, crossing acres of land per day.  To take them from their pride, cage them and transport them around a country on a lorry, only stopping to be released from their cage for ten minutes a night to perform unnatural acts for the purpose of human entertainment has to be ethically wrong.

Whilst there is some crossover into the fact that dogs doing HTM such as in that video are also performing unnatural acts for the purpose of human entertainment, the dog is a domestic animal who feels most at home being 'mans best friend' - going where the owner goes, doing what the owner does etc. and if a dog thoroughly enjoys doing HTM with their owner then although some might class what they are doing as an 'unnatural act', they are still doing what they want to do - being alongside their owner in adaptable situations.  A dog travelling from town to town in a vehicle with its owner, doing ten minutes of HTM a night is no less ethical than a dog living in the same house every night, doing 10 mins of HTM in the garden.  Even if a tiger thorougly enjoyed performing, and was clicker trained rather than punishment trained, and happily ran into the ring each night doing what it loved best, it would still be unethical on the grounds of the environment it was kept in, in order to do this, being unnatural.

(before anyone mentions that dogs were originally wild animals and should therefore be treated equally as wild animals like lions, they are now domesticated animals so it applies to their current natural habit!)

Now don't even get me started on performing dolphins, dolphinariums or 'swim with' dolphin attractions!

This is a personal opinion and by no means critical of other posts but I feel very uncomfortable when watching HTM.  It seems very unnatural to me and I would much prefer seeing dogs do what they were bred to do, even if that is extended in some way, e.g. guide dogs.  I like my dogs to have a purpose.

Jackie, please could you expand on your opinion.

Are you also uncomfortable with dogs doing obedience, agility, breed-showing? Are there any particular HTM moves that you find unnatural (or ones that you do like)?

I'm not a big fan of breed-showing but then I've got working dogs.  It's just not for me but I completely understand that the dog world would be worse off without it and other are more than entitled to do what they want.

Any dog jumping on two legs to dance reminds me of circus acts and I had hoped the world (at least part of) had advanced past the need for that.

Dogs don't need to dance. That's just my opinion - sorry.  I feel just as uncomfortable with dogs who sleep on owners beds, get dressed up, and have jewel encrusted collars that cost obscene amounts of money.  Personal opinion that's all.

Oh you'll hate me then! :-)

My dogs "work" in obedience, HTM and agility and they sleep on my bed (their most important job).

They don't know that they "dance", as far as they are concerned they do a series of tricks, exactly the same as they do in obedience and agility.

I agree - 'walking' on two legs (I've seen dogs trained to walk on only their front legs as well as only their back legs) isn't a natural movement for a dog, and so is being done purely for the 'human amusement' element - the selfsame element that is the main objection to circus animals. I feel uncomfortable with performing animals generally, but I appreciate that others see nothing wrong with it, and it's still (just) a free country.

No Karen, I don't hate you - infact I don't even know you.  I would dislike a particular activity your dogs do but that's a different thing altogether.  I am happy with everyone to have their own opinion and don't feel the need for everyone to conform to my own standard of beliefs, but to maintain their own interests and opinion too.

im not really into HWTM,so i dont do it!
theres no way though im going to slate something that dogs & their owners enjoy & get loads out of! likewise with showing,def not for me.....so i dont do it. & likewise agility!

i enjoy obedience,i love training it,i love doing it,love everything about it! but i realise its "not" for some!

i find the use of the word "circus" quite insulting & negative to people that put ALOT into their dogs,training etc.

we should all embrace each others differences!

basically if we all do "kindly" what we enjoy,then thats that!

jackyjat.....flynn has a "bling" collar & is allowed to sleep on the bed(though he dosent often chose to!)

jackyjat.....flynn has a "bling" collar & is allowed to sleep on the bed(though he dosent often chose to!)

I wonder why :D :D (New bed etc ;) )

I will sit on the fence on this one :D

I'm not sure why you should feel insulted at the use of the word circus; the dictionary definition of which is a travelling company of entertainers; including trained animals.

i HATE the circus,think the animals all looked under pressure & unhappy,& all the whips & stuff....no no no!

>& all the whips & stuff

In the public perception there's little difference between a whip and a target stick. It's only since coming on here that I've learned the difference - perhaps that would be an area in which to increase public awareness? Just a thought.

>I HATE the circus

That'd be why you find the term offensive, then. People who like the circus obviously wouldn't. :)

:D :D

>theres no way though im going to slate something that dogs & their owners enjoy & get loads out of!

That's all right then, because nobody's slated anything! ;) People saying they're not comfortable with something, and trying to rationalise why ;) isn't slating it. It's putting forward a personal opinion, which we're all equally entitled to, so there's no need for anyone to get up in arms about it.
:)

perhaps then if it wasnt meant as a negative term,more thought should be given. the term "circus" was used for a reason.
people that enjoy this sport,are going to be offended by it.
i know i am,when people refer to obedience as "circus" tricks.

I'm still checking this thread hoping that someone will explain what moves/tricks they don't like.

We've only had a couple of people who don't like dogs standing on their back legs. Which is understandable, some dogs are the wrong shape and size to do it and considerate owners don't ask them to, but some are naturals (I have a friend with a terrier that spends a lot of time on his back legs without training or reward, they don't do HTM).

I can understand people not being interested, it not being for them, but I don't understand people being uncomfortable/offended. It''d be really interesting if anyone can mention any other moves that they hate.

I feel the same about HTM as I do about any 'performing' animals - I know it's their job, but there seems to be a difference between dogs working at herding livestock or apprehending criminals or assisting the disabled, to performing actions purely for entertainment. JMO, and no offence intended. :)

Believe it or not there are people who take up herding other peoples animals and train the "tricks" involved in criminal/disabled work, for their own entertainment.

But for those of us who don't have livestock, criminals or disabled people, what should our dogs do (they have to do something to use their brains)?

I'm not trying to argue, I am genuinely interested - it could be the start of a brand new hobby! :-)

But for those of us who don't have livestock, criminals or disabled people, what should our dogs do (they have to do something to use their brains)?

Anyone got any suggestions?

Michelle, the word 'circus' is purely descriptive and not negative - look at the popularity of the Cirque du Soleil! It's only derogatory if you choose to make it so. But that's not how it's meant. :) I can't find another word in the dictionary that suggests animals performing actions for the entertainment of humans - perhaps you can help me out?

When used in relation to animals "circus" implies either cruelty or trivial. Circus's without animals can be quite popular.

I'm not sure about everyone else but saying you hate circus tricks doesn't help me understand what people don't like. What are circus tricks? I haven't been to an animal circus, (stereotype) do they just jump through hoops and walk around on hind legs?

Your definition could also describe breed-showing, agility, obedience but I'd feel quite uncomfortable calling all of those "circus" tricks.

It's many years since I went to a circus, but there would be animals of various species performing actions (it doesn't really matter the actions were) to entertain the public. This is where a lot of the discomfort with HTM comes from; it's fine in the privacy of your own home, but the exhibitionism element is somewhat distasteful. Yes, agility, obedience and breed-showing can be included - if there's a paying audience. Do away with that and the perception is less exploitative. :)

hwtm is a "sport" though,in the same way as ob & ag& wt are!

So is greyhound racing - classifying something as a 'sport' doesn't mean everyone has to like it! ;)

when did i say you had to like it!i was just saying that HWTM is more that a "act" it is a sport now! so not just put on a a "display/act"

i think those dalmation trials when they show their horse & carriage work is lovely,really good. dogs doing stuff.isnt that a sport/exibhition<sp?>

dunno why you really brought greyhound racing into it.dont know many hwtm exhb that breed loads/dump/cut off ears etc with their dogs that havent made it.i cant see any comparision at all

>i cant see any comparision at all

I was following your own definition of a sport, Michelle. Cruelty to dogs isn't an essential part of either activity. :) But is HTM a sport? Are there championships and awards to be won?

And yes, the carriage trials are good - just like sheepdog trials or gundog tests, where a breed demonstrates that it still has the ability to do what it was designed for. It's not done for 'entertainment'. :)

>hwtm is a "sport" though

Yea well, when they allow sychronised swimming in the olympics you just have to accept that sort of definition :D

:D :D :D

>It seems very unnatural to me and I would much prefer seeing dogs do what they were bred to do,

I can see where you are coming from, but like many others I don't have access to a flock of sheep for my collie, if I had a gundog I would feel uncomfortable with a bird being shot for my dog to retreive.  As for the bull breeds, enough said.

I feel at least the dogs doing obedience, agility and HTM are using their brains, building a relationship with their owners and I can only speak for my dog who enjoys any training I put her way.  It is an alternative to a working dog being bored and we all know where that can lead.

I don't do HTM, but I believe certain moves are banned at least in this country, standing on their front legs is one of them.

Karen, I'm not saying your dog shouldn't do HTM, I'm merely stating that I don't like it!  You posted a clip, I watched it and made a comment.  I don't expect you to agree with my point of view but then that's what makes us all different.

Jacky, I haven't posted any clips but you're right, I don't agree with your point of view but I would have liked to understand it.

Jeangenie is the only anti-HTM person who has actually explained why she has that opinion (thank you). :-)

>Jeangenie is the only anti-HTM person who has actually explained why she has that opinion

She's maybe the only one articulate enough :)  I don't care for it either but it is very hard to describe why, well it would have been if I had not read JG's posts :)

Sorry my articulative skills have failed. :rolleyes:

Did you have a go? :)