HI

I have been adivsed by our vet, that a season can last anything upto 6 weeks, is this right?
We are hoping to breed from our bitch, could  you advise what is the best age

thanks

i havent heard of a season lasting quite as long as that but who knows stranger things have happened, well as to age, 2 years onwards  but wouldnt ever think of a first litter after 4-5 years old but please make sure that your bitch has all the relevent health tests for her breed and that you have them homes for the pups lined up and that you are willing to give an excellent after sales service if required by the new owners.

Before you even start to think about breeding from your bitch, please read the threads at the beginning of the Breeding questions.

You need to know a lot more about the physiology of your dog for a start - can I suggest that you start by reading The Book of the Bitch?  You have to start somewhere, and knowing more about your dog's makeup is the first step.

Margot

here here! that is an excellent book or breeders bible as its sometimes known.

Once you've read the threads at the start of this section, and if you still think you want to breed, then might I suggest that you start with the breeder of your bitch?    First things first - has s/he put any restrictions on her registration?  I take it that she is registered with the Kennel Club?    If your breeder has endorsed her "not for breeding" then you are NOT going to be able to register any puppies born.

Of course, most good breeders will put restrictions on their puppies, and, if at the age of 2 (which is the earliest that you should be contemplating breeding from any but a toy breed) she is considered to be a good example of the breed in every way - build, coat, colour and, most importantly, temperament - and has had all the health tests relevant to your breed (and I'm not talking about the vet checking heart and lungs here - I'm talking hip and elbow scoring, eye testing, blood testing for all those problems that can come up in your breed.  If, at that stage, you and your breeder feel that yes, you will be breeding FOR THE GOOD OF THE BREED then your breeder should be the person who knows the lines who should advise you on the best stud to use - who should also have run the gamut of the same tests.

It's not something for the faint-hearted - you have to be strong, to be prepared to take back any puppies that you have produced at any stage during their (hopefully) long lifetime - that is what a good breeder does.

You may well think this is all too much - and maybe it would just be better to go back to your breeder, and get another puppy from the same lines - it's the easiest way, I can assure you :D

Margot

You also need experience of keeping a good number of dogs for plenty of years.  If you haven't got extensive dog experience, then how can you give backup and support to new puppy owners with any problems that they may encounter?

If your breed is either labradors or staffies, then the breed rescues are already full to bursting without adding anymore pet quality pups to their burden. :(

Could I just ask why a toy breed can be bred from earlier than other breeds?  Thanks (just curious).

I don't believe toys should be bred from earlier than other breeds??!! I like to think they should all be around 2 years old...if you want to get a lot of litters then I suppose the puppy farms tend to start earlier...but to be honest there are so many dogs bred that I can't believe anyone would want a bitch to have more than 2 to 3 litters? All the best, Dawn

They mature much quicker than large breeds though, Dawn, in fact for some of the small breeds I think it is recommended to have a litter while the pelvis is young and flexible.  The breed clubs would probably set an appropriate minimum age I would think.

Ohh well, I was told, even with me little Yorkies it should be 2 years?? I know the smaller breeds mature faster than me Giants...but personally I would wait...there again...looks like I gotta do more research huh?? LOL HA HA Thanks for that Isabel (that's the trouble when you've always had giants lol) All the best, Dawn X

We've had pups from our Pomeranian's at about 16 months and they've been fine over the years, the SWD's though I don't have pups until they are two.  Some are having them much younger but when the breed lives on average around 12/13 years I don't see the rush myself.

It's not always a question of rush sometimes it just fits in better with other plans.  I don't see, once a bitch is physically mature, which will vary by breed, that people need wait if it does not suit them.  I'm afraid I don't buy the mentally mature bit and it's not as if they have to complete their further education or make themself financially secure :)  The breed clubs, I think, are the best judges of what is appropriate for their breed.

Cavaliers are certainly one toy breed that should not be bred from early in fact 2 1/2 to 3 is the recommended age & the same for stud dogs. My JD's sister had a litter before she was 9 months old :rolleyes: & the owner was not a novice either

The Breed Club recommends:-

>No bitch to be mated so as to whelp before she is 16 months old, and then only if she is considered mature enough to raise a litter of puppies.

I understand your personal reasons for having a different opinion but I think it is erroneous to tell people it that this is the recommendation generally.  The breed club will be the largest concensus on what is necessary or desirable.

The Cavalier recommendation is because of MVD.

Yes I aware of why MM personally recommends an older age of breeding but it is not the case that the breed club does so I think it wrong to describe it as the recommendation.  No doubt their health committee will be aware of all the issues affecting the choice of first breeding age.

Yes I aware of why MM personally recommends an older age of breeding but it is not the case that the breed club does so I think it wrong to describe it as the recommendation.

Don't you think it is a SHAME though that the Cavalier Club states 16 months and NOT 2½ to 3 years? After all, all other national Cavalier clubs I know of DO give a higher age, (such as the American one) and even the club here DO have articles on their own website recommedning the age of 2 ½ years and with parents at laest 5 years old and still heart clear...... It certainly isn't just Moonmaiden's personal views, it is a widely held view all over the world.

Perhaps it is, it would be hard for me to say but I am sure the breed health committee will be aware of all the various issues.  I have no doubt there are others that hold MM's point of view too but the breed club is the largest concensus of breeder opinions in this country and if individuals want to change the clubs opinion on this then they should lobby them but I don't think it is right to portray their own view as the recommendation unless they can achieve majority support within the club.  That is one of the reasons for clubs to establish a consensus on issues such as this.

Well the way I read it is that 16 months is the RULE that all members agree to abide by, but the higher age is the RECOMMENDATION. So surely not wrong to say it is the breed club's recommendation to not breed before 2 ½.

I suppose that is one way you could describe it :) although I think they have got themselves in an extraordinary situation giving two sets of guidelines in effect.  I don't think it is as complicated with other toy breeds.

Well the way I read it is that 16 months is the RULE that all members agree to abide by,

Hm my JD's sister was in the ownership of a club member when she was bred from at just over 6 months :rolleyes:

As members have to abide by the code of ethics, which is where it says 16 months, anyone COULD if they so wish make a complaint....... I looked into this in Goldens where the code of ethics say no stud dog owner is to allow their stud to mate a bitch with a hip score higher than average. One of my dogs has a dad of lower than average score but a mum with 3 times as high. I contacted the breed club and they said I could certainly report both the breeder and the stud owner. In the end I didn't as the breeder had retired anyway.

Having said that, having been involved ina case where a breeder WAS reported to a breed club, nothing came of it despite  plenty of evidence.

Actually that is the Syringohydromyelia recommendation as well IMHO of equal importance
Current breeding recommendations (August 2005)

Note- The age cut off at 2.5 years has been decided so as to tie in with MVD recommendations and because most dogs with symptomatic syringomyelia will show signs before 3 years of age.

The MVD recommendation is

...............

The UK Cavalier King Charles Spaniel scheme was set up about 15 years ago. Since then, the Swedish breeding advice added that breeding dogs should be over 5 or their parents over 5 years old and free of a murmur................

Proposed New Scheme

We should continue to assess dogs on an annual basis until they are 5 years old to detect any dogs that develop a murmur prematurely. This could be performed by a Cardiologist or the local veterinary surgeon. These will be quiet murmurs, so ideally, a Cardiologist should perform the examination to increase the chances of detection. However, there will be a cost involved.

The examination at 5 years old should become a major examination as this is the time at which we decide whether the dog and its progeny should be used for breeding. This should be carried out by a cardiologist, preferably from the VCS list, and should include:

   1. Auscultation
   2. Echocardiography


This is from the Cavalier Club Website

The Breed Club recommends:-

    >No bitch to be mated so as to whelp before she is 16 months old, and then only if she is considered mature enough to raise a litter of puppies.

I understand your personal reasons for having a different opinion but I think it is erroneous to tell people it that this is the recommendation generally.  The breed club will be the largest concensus on what is necessary or desirable.

See my quote from the CKCS club site What have I written that is erroneous ? BTW the ages I have quoted are the Cavalier Veterinary expert recommendation The likes of Geoff Skerritt & Claire Rusbridge aren't just GP vets but experts in Cavalier health matters

Please read my comments about a concensus :) I don't know anything about individual vets but I expect the breed club will be aware of their thoughts.

Hi Isabel,

I can't speak for a breed of the numerical strength of CKCS, or any with a large number of breed clubs, but I am certainly aware of a few breed clubs where the Committees are made up almost entirely of new people to the breed (i.e. first involvement with a pedigree club, shows, seminars etc) and some of which are not even yet contemplating a litter. 

Possibly this is more often the case where there are few people interested in joining and taking on the commitment required but, nevertheless, means that the "breed club" is nothing like a concensus of opinion of those within it's membership never mind those involved in the breed as a whole.

Just a random thought really but one which doubtless applies to several breeds :)

Maybe so, I could not say being a member of only two breed clubs but if you disregard a democratically elected leadership what are you left with? 

I do see your point and for most breeds there will be a "democratically elected leadership" however for some the Committee may well be an assortment of random folks co-opted on to fill vacancies at a poorly supported AGM. 

6 weeks!!!!! THAT`S A NEW ONE

You also need to do the necessary health test in your breed of which there are for Staffies.  I hope her parents had them before being bred from?

Actually I had a bitch that was kept away from the males for more than 6 weeks from the first day of showing proper colour, she had a litter of pups just over 9 weeks so it can happen!!!

A LM bitch I bred had her first season last 5 weeks (Yes!) so long seasons are possible.  She's never had one like that since.