My Mum[70] takes her dachsie out for a walk late at night to avoid contact with unruly dogs, Penny is on an extended lead which is shortened when any other dogs are spotted,it doesn't seem to matter where she goes or what route she takes they encounter a dog off lead with the owner too far away to be able to do anything. Penny was spayed nearly 2 yrs ago so there is no scent to atract them.

There is a weimeraner[sp] and a boxer who come and stand over the dachsie frightening the living daylight out of her,she has been roughed up by JRT's and the owners of these dogs don't even apologise.

Mum has started standing her ground and pointing at said dogs and growling "don't you dare touch her" several times,the owners of these dogs must be able to see what is happening if not hear as they are too far away,yet there is no attempt to recall their dogs and put them on a lead,some don't even appear to have a lead with them.

I was wondering if there is anything else Mum can do short of not going out at all. BTW Penny is epileptic.

Rhona

Hi Rhona,  Sorry to hear of your Mum's difficulties.  Not so sure it is a good idea for her to go out late at night, both from the point of view of her own safety and the fact that these other dog walkers have less chance perhaps of seeing the difficulties she is having (giving them the benefit of the doubt here, they may not give a toss of course!).

How about suggesting your Mum carries a water sprayer of some kind (like a water pistol) which she could use to deter the other dogs from approaching without harming them?

I have told her about the late at night thing but she still thinks of me as a kid at 50 so what hope have I got HA HA HA. She doesn't go far when it is dark and stays on the pavements,these episodes have happened when it is still daylight and if Mum can see the owners then they must be able to see her as these are not guide dogs HA HA HA

She goes line dancing 4 evenings a week and it has been too hot to take Penny and walk her at the nearby park and leave her in the car as she normally does during the summer months. So hence the late night walks,she assures me not on the parkland after dark.

I will look about for a water pistol or the likes that she can use on these dogs,thankyou very much for the suggestion.

I will let you know how thinks go.

Rhona

Well none of the dogs should be off lead on the pavements, and your Mum should not have hers on an extending lead let out.

I would contact the Dog Warden about the problem of people not obeying the law and keeping their dogs leashed on a public road.

As she is walking along the street she is less likely I would have thought to meet off lead dogs there in the day.

She could also shout out to the people that her bitch is in season(I know it isn't true) but it would sure make most people want to get their male on lead.

If you're going to try the water spray, one easy/quick solution is to use one of those Jiff plastic lemons, if your mum has one.  You know, the yellow plastic lemon-shaped thing which Jiff lemon juice comes in.  Empty it of lemon juice first though!  But it's the right size to fit in a pocket nicely and it looks nothing like a replica gun and isn't gun shaped, so most people don't feel so silly (or conspicuous) carrying it.

Good point 123, we don't want Rhona's Mum getting rid of the unwanted dogs but being surrounded by armed police do we!! :D

Brainless, when Mum is walking on the pavements the dog is on a short leash, only on the park land is she allowed to wander farther a field,I should have made that clearer. SORRY

I have stopped walking my dogs locally because of all the hassle from the inconsiderate locals. I prefer to put them in the car and take them somewhere they can run free on the extended lead. The Public Open Space which has been left on out estate has been abused,there is dog muck everywhere,I can honestly say I have never seen anyone clean up after their dog. I have recently bought for Mum and myself a pouch thing that fits onto the handle part of the extending lead,it has 4 pockets for keys poop bags etc which means everything is together and safe whilst out walking and not stuck in our waist bands.

I had thought about the Jif Lemon but wasn't sure you could still buy them. I agree the treats are not a good idea,she will have every hound in L'pool after her.

Thankyou very much for all your suggestions.

Rhona

Sounds like your local council needs to get it's dog warden patrolling that area for a while dishing out fines for not clearing up and picking up latchkey dogs, fining for dogs off lead etc.  Haven't seen  loose dogs around here regularly for years since the ones that regularly roamed got picked up a few times and owners had to pay over £30 a day to get them back.  Cheaper to dog prof the gardens.

Been a few fined last year for not pop scooping and that has sunk in quite well.

Needs the community to get the council to take the issue seriously.  Worth speaking to local councilllors etc.

Mum and several other dog owners go to all the meetings about the estate and brings up the subject of dog fouling each time but nothing seems to change,the local councillor is there too.The dog warden come once a week to empty the dogbins,there are now 2 one on each side of the road,which has taken about 2 yrs of pestering to get them,they are too small in my estimation. I don't mind taking mine home,I would never just leave it. There are not that many strays,one or 2 that are seen regularly.

A few weeks ago as I was driving out of the estate and waiting at the junction I saw one old dear let her 2 westies out onto the piece of council grass in front of her bungalow to do their business,I gave her a loud hoot on the horn and she quickly called them in,she was out of site when I got level with her. She had nothing with her to clean up after them and the dogs were obviously used to this routine,I don't think she has done  it again because that piece of grass now is clear.

The 0.9ml walk from my house to my Mum's is like an obsticle course of dog muck,the road sweepers seem to ignore it too.

I am always wary of confronting anyone,I think I will use the suggestions I have read on here and ask them have they run out of bags and give them one of mine and tell them to go and see the neighbourhood warden for some more and they will deliver some as the pass by if they can't give any at the time.

Thanks again for your input

Rhona

Rhona, When I was concerned about dog fouling, I found our council environmental health dept online, emailed them and got an immediate response both regarding inspectors who give out fines, and cleansing of fouled areas. (They also put through a request to another dept regarding broken glass in a public area which was dealt with immediately).
I found information on fouling in your area here:
http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Environment/Animal_welfare/index.asp
http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Environment/Street_care_and_cleaning/index.asp
There are details for contact, including email for Liverpooldirect.

Perhaps you would get a more satisfactory response from them.

THANKS FOR THE INFO

RHONA

The water spray is just what I was going to suggest, tell he to carry a water bottle or spray (one that can shoot a high powered stream of water) and when these dogs come to close, give them a blast in the face with the water,  it should get rid of unwanted dogs, if the owners of these unruly dogs have anything to say, tell you mum to say " I`m sorry but she/he has a contagious skin condition and I would`nt like  for her to pass it on"   bet you they wont let there dogs run up to hers again.   tell her to cut a chunk or two bald patches out of her dogs coat,  to back up her story,  have to agree though , it is not safe to go out late at night .

i heard a good thing the other day,as a alternative to the water spray. to carry some treats & when unwanted dogs come close,throw treats at them so they scatter & the dogs look for them

I disagree about the treats thing. We had a lady where I used to live who did this. All the local dogs knew her and looked out for her. Free treats ;) She was bothered a lot more when she used the treats than before. I would use a water pistol, or how about a loud whistle? That should stop the dogs, and make their owners wonder what is going on.

Maybe we should have a test (like a driving test) before being allowed to own dogs. At least then we would need to know the basics of dog ownership. ;) Oh well, back to the real world.

I'd agree with the advice about the extending lead - they can lead to the death of a dog if the dog runs out suddenly into the road, plus there is no real control, as any control relies on the lead going in and out, you can't really grab it in an emergency satisfactorily.

I'm sure she's used to it, but personally I'd prefer a long lead or line - once you get used to them, much better than flexi types. I actually quite hate flexi types although I appreciate not all do. Apart from anything else, they encourage pulling!

One lady I know has a small pop up umbrella which deters other dogs, but does not scare her own who are used to it..:)

Maybe we should have a test (like a driving test) before being allowed to own dogs.

Maybe breeders should charge 4 times what they charge for a pup ...so for a pup who costs £500 charge £2000 but with a contract to refund £500  when the pup passes Good citizen  puppy class, £500 refund for Bronze and £250 for silver and £250 for gold.

Vets/pet insurance should also offer financial incentives for reaching these very basic levels of training. I like the idea of rewards for well behaved dogs/good responsible ownership.

I still like my idea of as well as the on the spot fines for not cleaning up... a £25 on the spot fine for not being able to recall the dog to be put on lead by the third call.

>a £25 on the spot fine for not being able to recall the dog to be put on lead by the third call.

Who on earth carries that sort of money with them when they're walking the dog? If it was a law, and public knowledge, dog walkers would be at even greater risk of being mugged!

It's what you get hit with already for not cleaning up....can be more like £50 in some places.   You get issued with the fine on the spot..you don't have to pay it on the spot!  Or dropping a match or a cig end is £50. 

It's like speeding fines..if you don't break the speed limits you don't pay the fines!  So responsible dog walkers would not have to pay fines anyway would they!

>a £25 on the spot fine for not being able to recall the dog to be put on lead by the third call.

I'd be bankrupt :rolleyes: my boy has virtually no recall but he's not a hooligan, doesn't harrass other dogs or people, and doesn't stray far from us. He is just very independent and more into doing his own thing. Incidentally, he has passed his GC bronze and we are working towards his silver now.

Yep mine have their GC certificates, but I would be quite poor on the recall right away front :D

>>a £25 on the spot fine for not being able to recall the dog to be put on lead by the third call.<

Our latest dog would have had to go straight back to the rescue organisation when we went bankrupt. :-D

if you have good cit bronze you would have no problem in recalling your dog.... bit if a dog was comming to attack your dog wouldn't it be nice if the owner of it had also taught it a recall?

OKay..suit yourselves...lets keep it as it is and in which case would people here stop complaining about off lead dogs!  Either you lot want them to cause a problem or you dont!

I was joking but there is a serious point that well behaved dogs are made not born, and it takes time - time during which things will go wrong.  The thought of a £25 fine might discourage people from taking on dogs that have not had the benefit of kind and patient training and end up in rescue. :-)

yes... but I can honestly say that those who work hard tend to attract very few complaints... these type put their dogs on the lead if they see a fearful dog or something that will destract their dog and as dogs learn through habbit and through sucsess these type pof people really do not want to get into a habbit of causing  a social problem..okay yes you slip up once or twice ..my two are 18 months old now so yes of course they are far from perfect...( which I prefer as I like character! ) but no one has ever complained about them and it is the exception not the rule ..... and on the odd time it goes peear shaped I have the manners to say sorry when I make miss judgements and I would pay for any damages if needed.  to me though if paying the off fine meant better behaved dogs, less complaints about dogs, less attacks on small dogs and less social problems caused by dogs..( frequenty to other dogs...)

The biggest problem I myself have with unruly dogs is minir...stealing baslls... at £1 a ball it is not much but it costs me about £15 a year at least and means I dare not pay more for a greater variety of intersting toys. Some weeks a new ball will last two days before it is stolen... and the ownwers laugh while their dog chews it to bits and say they can't get it back.  They never pay for replacements!  I always carry 3 so at least my dogs can keep on playing but at times all three are stolen and I find I have walked to the park to play ball with my dogs but have no balls left for them. So already I pay quite a lot. This problem has driven heaps of people out of the park..especially people with Border Collies who like to chase a ball or have a favourate ball because it is really inconvenient to have the dog toys nicked all the time! Living in a major city wayward dogs can cause a huge problem as the dog population is so huge and we all share such a small space!

As well as ball theft... other people have vet bills...on average between £100 - £300 for bites and skin tears and infections from nips... as well as the three small dog deaths I mentioned... ( and two deaths to the the waywards dogs  themselves caused from running off into traffic. )  And this is just my local park which is safer and friendlier than most city parks!  Aparantly it was not like this a few years ago... so I am told.

Anyways.....there are so few dog wardens so it would not mean many fines..like with the dog poo. I only know of one local person fined for not picking up... frequently  only one person per park would get a fine..the message would spread and it would have an impact.. and soon the story would change and people think many more were getting fines!

>  a £25 on the spot fine for not being able to recall the dog to be put on lead by the third call.

Most people don't have their own private park, with distractions, in which to practise. You are very lucky if you've never had a recall problem with your dogs :D :D :D

Daisy

Thats why I say three calls....  in parks where dogs are running amock and causing problems and small dogs are getting attacked and killed... people knocked over   ....I firmly know in the past 4 years three small dogs have been killed in my park and several had nasty attacks..... then some way needs to be brought in so a warden who suspects a dog is our of control can ask the owner to demonstrate to them that the dog is under control.... not sure if your area is the same but where I live   they are actually supposed to be under control!  

Dogs in my park are permitted to be off lead...but they are supposed to be 'under control'... I do not let my dogs run free until I have a decent recall... If I have to call three times I consider my control too poor...if my dogs got into trouble or into a fight with a poor recall then no way could I call them off....that would make them dangerous dogs.

I'm not actually  lover of dogs  ...I'm only a lover of well managed well cared for and well behaved dogs.... not of antisocial dogs.

So I am not lucky with my dogs...I just put a lot of work and responsibility into handling and training and playing with them and I expect a good recall. If they let me down back on lead for more training....

At the moment I can't think of any of the regular 100 untrained pet dogs I know who walk in my park who would not be able to recall their dogs... it is a basic need to be able to recall their dogs! 

I guess you don't like the fines for dropping litter or not cleaning up after dogs....  or speed cameras.  I'm all for these myself... and for the ASBO...  very good at last to see efforts of social control.

You know you people don't like anything really do you.  Well... if somethings not done we will get USA style laws an dogs will be on leads all the time! Maybe in 50 years time but it will happen.  

Okay...let the big dogs do what they want and  rule the parks! Why have control over them! lol!   Little dogs should be walked at home on treadmills where they are safe!

> You know you people don't like anything really do you

Probably not :(

Daisy

Well this forun is a clear winner out of those I kbnow for having people all change their tunes and jump on someone for making a mild someting of nothing comment which supports the concept behind the theme of the thread!

There is a  huge amount of  pack mentality on this forum!  The forum is a lovely idea but would be better and more friendly feeling without being dominated by a well established  pack!

This forum is basically too frequently sadly very  low on the list of top most friendly forums! 

That's because it's not fluffy, but instead has people who aren't afraid to tell the truth! :) Sadly there are people who can't handle that. :(

Well said, JG !!

Why do people persist in criticising this forum, when the best way of voting is with your feet :( If there are, apparently, so many other, far better, forums - why stay on this one ????

Daisy

Well I'm not part of any pack...

I mean, I even agreed with Isabel on the recent vaccination thread

> I mean, I even agreed with Isabel on the recent vaccination thread

Exactly - most people on here are of independent mind and can sort the wheat from the chaff themselves :D :D

Daisy

:D :D @ onetwothree

:D You'll get over it ;)
I must agree with you again ;) with sensible minded people, as most Champdoggers are ;), you can expect sensible views to be commonly held in a lot of instances :) but if people take the trouble to look through the posts you can see that many posters hold varying opinions beyond those subjects where we commonly agree, however, as most of our posters understand the concept of not taking it personally we do that without a huge cafuffle so perhaps easily missed :)

I've been trying to think of any two people on here who always agree on everything ... and I can't! But we're mature enough not to take it personally! :D

I think I've already mentioned that I don't like dogs approaching my dog as she doesn't like it.  This means that I don't agree with the concensus on this thread but I don't feel persecuted or intimidated because I don't agree with the majority.

thats exactly what I was going to suggest, a water pistol & squirt the bloomin things in the face to get them away from her dog. Its not fair that her dog should be frightened when its under full control

My experience is there are far more dogs running around off-leash, and no owner in sight, after dark than during the daytime.  Nitwit owners where I live know their dog is supposed be leashed or contained but after dark I guess they think the neighbours don't see their dog.  Further, I find that dogs on their own often act completely differently than they do in the daytime when the owner is present, being, many times, much more defensive of what they perceive as their territory, which is sometimes the whole darn street. 

Is your mother is only going out in the dark to avoid the current heat wave?  Hopefully she can stop doing this soon.  I wonder if she should be pointing at these unruly dogs, if that might be viewed by them as a aggressive move on her part.  Ditto shooting the water pistol in their faces.  I wonder about retaliation from the dogs, who are perfectly able to see that her dog is small and know that she is old.  (Don't tell your mother I said she was old, but my Mum is 88 and she is just as stubborn about insisting she can still do things.)

When bicycling the OH and I used an ultrasonic dog deterrant that really worked.  It produces a high pitched sound that only dogs (and cats) can hear and is unpleasant to them.  The only problem is it will probably also hurt her own dog's ears.  Don't know if directing it away from her dog will make a difference.

My experience is there are far more dogs running around off-leash, and no owner in sight, after dark than during the daytime.
i'm sure this is when the dog mess appears. I've seen folk drive up at night to 'walk' their dogs. They open the car door then sit down in the car while the dog goes for walkines! Somehow they still have a dog to take home at the end of te walk!

She relly would be better in the day once it cools off.  People get to know eachother in the day, chat, make friends and look after one another. So if she is caused problems other people will step in to help he out... that's how it works round me. She shoud not go out at night...it's really not worth the risk.

Okay...let the big dogs do what they want and  rule the parks! Why have control over them! lol!   Little dogs should be walked at home on treadmills where they are safe!

I actually have more trouble with small yappy, snappy dogs mainly to be honest so please dont just single out large dogs as all are just as bad as each other!!

oh dear......how many little dogs have killed the big dogs in your park?

I'm actually a big dog fan.....not at all keen on the little yappy ones at all.... ( sorry wee yappy dog lovers! ;) )  but I do apprecite even if my dogs ran up to a small dog there is a risk of death through trampling for the little one.. several dogs I know locally  have picked up and shook small dogs... some owners were horrified..otheres laughed and said oh dear they thought it was a rabbit.  imo..because of the risks to small dogs the big dogs do have to be better trained do need better recalls and better leave commands because the consequenses when it all goes wrong with the big powerful dogs are sooo awful.

I never said any had been killed :rolleyes:

But they can be just as much trouble in other ways which I'm sure you'd know

Now the weather has cooled down Mum has gone back to walking Penny after lunch,she says there are fewer folk about then.

Thanks for all your comments.

Rhona

Glad to hear your Mum's problems have resolved themselves for the time being, Rhodap.

As a small yappy dog owner myself, I'm quite happy to admit that they can be a flaming nuisance. Especially when people seem to think that their small yappy dogs have some sort of behaviour immunity and should be permitted to get away with things that aren't tolerated from larger breeds.

However, it's quite clear from reading the regular horror stories about urban dog walking that there are too many dog living in towns and too many of them are little more than canine terrorists! I'm wearing my tin hat here but it does occur to me that little consideration is given to the suitability of certain breeds for urban living and almost no consideration as to whether particular circumstances are actually right for owning a dog at all.

I know that it's easy for me to make these judgements because I live in the country and don't have to compete with umpteen other dogs and owners for every small patch of recreational territory. However, when I was living right in the middle of town in a top floor flat, I had several dog-free years because I simply didn't think it was a suitable place for one. It wasn't easy since I longed for doggy companionship but sometimes you can't have everything you want simply because you want it and want it NOW.

Well as an urbanite my experiences are very positive on the dog walking front.  Despite poor knowledge and training there are very few cases of problems when as you say you consider the sheer numbers of dogs around.

Most are very well adjusted and used to mixing with large numbers of strange dogs.

I have tended to find dogs in the country far more territorial when on property compared to the dogs that are used to seeing people and dogs walk past theirs.

As already mentioned my dog  can be iffy with other dogs and I believe this has come about because of her being chased by dogs as a pup (mostly small aggressive dogs I might add).  At the weekend I was walking my dog off lead and she was close by when I saw a dog running straight towards us which took her by surprise. The owner of the dog was across the other end of the park actually walking away having not noticed his dog had left him.  My dog turned on the dog and gave it a chase and proper "telling off".  Although I felt guilty because the other dog wasn't aggressive I don't actually believe I was at fault.  Why should I keep my dog on a lead and spoil her walk because someone else can't keep their dog close to them?  Two days later a similar thing happened whereby my dog was ran at by a dog being chased by its owner who obviously had no recall.  My dog chased the dog off again and again I felt guilty but is this really my fault?  I now consider that these two instances have set my dog back no end because of other owners' lack of control.  She had been making great progress being socialised whenever possible in controlled situations showing her that dogs are generally friendly and not out to chase her.

It's actually makes no difference what size your property is when you have a dog..because you walk them outside not inside. The size of dog makes no difference...a massive well behaved dog will seem smaller then a small badly behaved dog. I think the city is a gret place to have a dog and is better for the environment because we live where we work, shop, go to school. People have to live in city areas or our country would be sunk. WE need to preserve greenbelt areas and keep most people  living in the city areas... so yes city peple still deserve  pleasures and hobbies and their chosen companions...it is thanks to city dwellers that we actually have countryside!

In my part of the city you get a lot of Border collies..because they are bred to work but many are not suitable to work so end up in shelters or pet homes.  So people do a great job taking in all breeds of dogs in the city.  Only a very small minority of people lack manners and these type cause problems for the mass majority of people.

My dogs are working breed but well suited to city life because this is their home..they have been brougt up with traffic, busses, trucks, kids, bikes, goid dogs bad dogs..they must learn that no matter what other people do or let their dogs do they must not respond to it or join in with it but must ignore and stay focused on us. Even if a dog goes for them and gives them a nip they must leave and come to heel. This is safest for them and sets a good example. Of course idealistically...at 18 months old they are still just manner learning students.  

I bought my dogs as littlke pups to train up corectly and so if I get it right with mine it makes it easier for all those wonderful people who take on rescues with previously formed  issues and bad experiences to be free to walk their dogs without being aggrivated and worried about mine causing them more suffering.

I did say I'd put my tin hat on!

...as well as the baler twine that holds up my trousers.

However, I don't recall suggesting that city folk were in any way inferior (although I kind of take issue with the idea that we wouldn't have any countryside without you!) because the point I was making related to the number of untrained and poorly controlled dogs that seem to exist within urban areas given that they are the subject of many topics on this board. I was also not aiming my comments at perfectly trained and wonderfully obedient dogs such as yours, Tenaj

sorry..wasn't meaning thining you had seen city people as inferior at all... but to wait until you can afford a house in the country before you can have a dog seemed unrealistic as the mass population has to live in the city and most people love city life anyway. And seriously if you gave each member of public a house with a plot of land there would be no countryside. We do need the compact housing of the cities.

  I don't think there are any more badly behaved dogs in the city then the country perecntage wise ...just more people and dogs live in the city. So of course more city people will have problems with dogs and antisocial people because they meet more people! I can meet 50+ new dogs in a day each week of the year and in a week  1 of those dogs might be problematic.... which is not many at all.  But many more are so free range I wonder why the owner wants the companionship of a dog at all. Each to their own...I just like to be with my dogs when we go for walks! lol! But some people feel giving the dog lots of freedom to roam is meeting the needs of the dog in the best possible way...is giving them the best doggie life. 

In my area of the city the vast majority of local dogs are from rescues...so yes many have issues but not ones caused by their owners.    The worst behaved dogs in my area are for causing problems for other people are the Labs/retriever pups ( bought from breeders as pups )and border collie/cross type from rescues. Litle dogs can be irritating but i can't cxlain they have ever been actually problematic. Time yet though of course!

I do think people with dogs should be more flexable..I suggested earlier a fine for out of control dogs and I think that would help get the message to some  more irrisponsible dog owning people because dogs are a cause of a lot of anti social social issues.  But at the same time dogs are dogs... frequently people expect them to behave better then people! Some people will see actions of unknown dogs as an attack...others who know dogs better see it as natural part of communication...if people understood dogs better and appreciated they are actually just dogs then they might more forgiving.

Not currently feeling very forgiving.  Let me tell you about today's adventures walking in our lovely countryside ...

New landowner, new tenants, crackdown on using the proper rights of way.

I was walking on the right of way through some farm buildings/cottages with my dogs on lead out of respect for the inhabitants.  Two terriers I'd never seen before came bolting out of a building and ran at my dogs.  I picked my terrier up (I don't like doing it but they were coming full pelt and I was worried that one or both of them might be a serious fighter) so they launched themselves at my Lab instead.  He roared at them (he's very dog wise) and they backed off momentarily and then spent the next five minutes jumping up and snapping at my terrier and my arms and my back.  Five minutes during which their owners ran round helplessly trying to catch them, shouting and swearing at them.

Contemplating a move to the city.  Only joking.  But that's the last time we'll be doing that walk because those dogs will always be running loose there - that's country life!