My goal is never retribution, but to be informed and hopefully prevent future problems.

That's a very positive approach Trisha but for me this would only work if the vet was also prepared to acknowledge that errors had been made, report it correctly and resolve to do everything in his or her power not to let it happen again, ie be fully accountable for his/her actions.  I think it is where a client gets a total refusal to accept any responsibility that feelings fester and retribution is sought.

my vet was trying to say I did need my pup to have the two lots of vaccinations despite what Intervet was telling me

Your particular vet was being naughty Annie.

Mine tries to do that too, giving a full booster every year, even though the vaccine they use is valid for 3 years (apart from lepto, which could be given separately and annually, if they wanted to be thorough). 

The vet I was talking about was very pro vaccination and didn't think you could ever overdo it :rolleyes: which I find frightening.  However, she did accept I was correct in the end and vaccinated according to my wishes, albeit not with a very good grace! :D

As for your vet and others like him/her, I don't feel they do their reputations any favours with that sort of behaviour and are bound to leave themselves open to charges of profiteering although to give them the benefit of the doubt, perhaps it is down to failing to keep up with changing vaccination protocols or thinking 'the old ways were best so I'll stick with it'.  They're not alone as some people on here choose to fully booster their dogs annually as well despite this being against vaccine manufacturers' protocols.  Can't understand that myself.

Another issue I had with my vet was over the Pet Passport.

The first time I had one done, I wanted to get it done as early as possible, thinking that I could then go abroad with the dog sooner.  The earliest the rabies shot can be given is 12 wks.  So at 12 wks, off I went with the pup.  Pup was given jab, then I was told that because she was so young, there was a very good chance that the maternal antibodies would have cancelled out the vaccination and it was advisable to come back in 2 weeks for another rabies shot before the blood test a month after that

Even then, knowing little about vaccination problems, that sounded a bit OTT to me, and I questioned it, politely.  This vet is one of those who don't like being questioned by pet owners, seeing it as an insult to his knowledge.  Although very good practically and an excellent surgeon, he has bad people-skills and was very short with me.  I asked if it would be possible to have the blood titre done as usual in a month, and then decide, based on that, if another shot was necessary.  He said that yes, that would be possible, if I really wanted to do that, but that if the titre came back showing that the jab hadn't worked, we'd have to start again from the beginning with another jab, followed by another month's wait, and this would mean there we wouldn't be able to go abroad for another month or two.  He made it sound v likely that the jab wouldn't work at 12 wks and as we had a holiday booked and needed to go abroad with the pup, we ended up getting 2 rabies jabs done, at fortnight apart.

There's no way I would let that happen now.

I just wish he had told me before the 1st jab that he would then want to give 2 jabs.  Because, in that case, I would have delayed any rabies jab until after 16 wks and just had the one.

Another pet hate of mine, vets who see any form of questionning as an insult to their knowledge!  I could never stay with a vet like that, no matter how good their other skills I'm afraid.  I think any professional confident of their knowledge base should never mind people asking questions, in fact perhaps they should even encourage it.

This is precisely what I was talking about earlier 123 in that it would have been so helpful to you to research the protocols in advance before even making the appointment at the vets rather than suddenly find yourself in a situation you felt unhappy with.  With rabies jabs in particular, I would definitely fight shy of giving them too early or close to other puppy vax.  I'm a bit puzzled though cos in this country would a puppy normally have maternal antibodies to rabies anyway?

>in this country would a puppy normally have maternal antibodies to rabies anyway?

I suppose it would depend if the dam had herself been vaccinated for the Pet Passport.

Well, the way it works at my vet surgery, there is this one vet who deals with all the Pet Passport stuff.  So, if you want to get the PP, that's who you go to.  My regular vet I see for routine vax and everything else, and he's really nice and doesn't mind being questioned at all.  In fact I routinely have interesting conversations with him about all sorts of things.

I did research the protocols, which just said the pup had to be 12wks old, or 3 months, if JG is right.  There was nothing in any written protocols about advising a 2nd jab if a pup was this age, before titre testing.  I don't think there is any such protocol, it's just what this particular vet believed. 

She didn't have the other puppy jabs at the same time, 2nd jab was at 10 wks.  Perhaps that's still too close though, I would wait till 16 wks at least now for rabies.

Her mother wasn't PPed, so didn't have any antibodies to rabies.  So, yes, you're right that this wouldn't have affected the pup anyway and 1 jab would probably have been ok.

>The earliest the rabies shot can be given is 12 wks.

Actually that's not quite correct. Defra says that the rabies jab can't be given before 3 months of age; that's three calendar months - slightly longer than 12 weeks.

You would only have maternal antibody interference with the Rabies vaccine if the mother had been vaccinated against rabies which isn't the case with most UK dogs.

I had a pup that was being exported to Poland 9 years ago Rabies vaccinated at 8 weeks old, even though the manufacturers protocols (which assume routine use, so mother would have been done), and this was fine and pup was able to go to new home a month later at 11 weeks.

If it hadn't been for a kind Quarantine kennel owner who advised me that there wasn't a problem vaccinating a British pup earlier then I would have had to wait another month with the pup.

That's exactly what I meant in my post yesterday - they get a mental block on any new thinking, and it seems that some never keep up to date with revisions in manufacturers recommended use of medicines.

To us, having a vet who is very pro vaccination, and perhaps set in his ways in some respects (although he doesn't send out annual booster reminders) we know that to challenge him in a specific way would probably change the good rapport we've had with him for the past 10 years. This vet is an extremely good one, who has done some excellent and tricky work on both our previous dogs, he's pleasant, compassionate, takes his time and will go to great lengths to explain things. We feel he did, in a moment of aberration, make a wrong choice. Taking him to task over it would serve no useful purpose and we'd probably lose the best vet we've ever known.

We've had enough issues ourselves with health matters to generally be able to recognise a genuine error vs downright incompetence. In this case, even error could be questioned - it may have been perhaps just a wrong call with him weighing up the pros and cons and unfortunately coming down on the wrong side.

We are now better informed, and will take the issue of future boostering one step at a time with him. I intend to use nosodes in the future and request that she be titre tested.
Not everyone finds alternative medicine acceptable, and I feel he may be one such person.

When I picked up Rjj I took him & had bloods taken for titre testing before his puppy jabs(he was 3 months old)& from the results I had his puppy vaccs done. I asked about PP rabies jabs & my vet advised that the practice preferred not to do the rabies too close to the puppy vaccs & would I wait 4 weeks after his 2nd puppy shots(which was what I had been advised to do by Glasgow) When I had the Rabies titre test done I had extra bloods taken for parvo etc & the same when I had his CEA/CL bloods taken.

His yearly titre test has just come back showing he does not need to be boosted & from now on he will be yearly titre tested unless there is a local outbreak & then all my dogs are tested to ensure they are ok.

My vets obviously know my views on boosters & vaccs in general after losing our cavalier 5 years ago in the surgery immediately after he had his booster

MM, have you seen any noticeable difference in antibody levels between your yearly titre tests?  Only I'm waiting for the results of my first one and understand if they are high, they are likely to stay high and I wondered if that is what you have found.

hi,
How much does it cost you to titre test your dogs at your vets?

Hi Emz - sorry, we've been somewhat hijacking your thread!  Do hope your girl is improving now.

This is the first time I've titred - the blood has been sent away to Glasgow Uni vet diagnostic services and they charge £25 to check antibody levels for parvo/distemper/adeno (hepatitis).  My vet charged me another £25 for his services (extracting the blood and sending it off), both fees + VAT.  I also got charged consultancy on top but this might be because I had the vet do a full health check and inspect my dogs eyes as well.  Some vets may be prepared to take the blood and send it off more cheaply and include consultancy in that charge so best to check with your own vet but make sure they are aware of the combined test mentioned above, otherwise you might end up being asked for £25 for each disease.  Be prepared also for them not to know what you're talking about! :D

ok lol,
I have been reading it all with interest so no harm in the hijacking ;-)  so really not that much higher than the boosters themselves anyway! I know all vets vary in prices for things, but I will look into this As Blade is due his booster now!
Thanks

so really not that much higher than the boosters themselves anyway

There is of course the chance that if the titre results come back low and you want to booster, then this will be an additional cost.

Edited to say that although someone on here recently mentioned a titre test for lepto, it is generally felt you can't reliably titre test for lepto.

From the first tests I had done back in 1982(moved & had a very forward thinking vet who offered titre tests instead of yearly boosters way back then) until now my dogs have all had high titre levels(except the puppies). The cavalier who died was actually my mother's dog & she insisted that he was boostered & refused to have titre tests done-how she regretted this when he died all our dogs are treated as family members so I still think of him as one of mine. My personally owned dogs ever since 1982 have only ever had their puppy vaccs if the titre levels showed they needed them(one didn't & actually never had any vaccs at all & his titre level always showed he did not need vaccs)

The first dogs I had done showed titre levels off the scale & I was told not to ever have any of them done again by the vet, he was concerned back then about the number of dogs who had bad reactions after their boosters & initial shots. He retired a few years back & was given a MBE I think put forward by his clients ! for being an excellent vet over many many years

Edited to add
My vet charges me £9.99 to take blood samples & I have a contact who is researching into vaccinations & titre levels & they do my tests at cost I simply post the samples to them

The costs at Glasgow are here

What a great vet you had in 82, bet he was sorely missed when he went.  I'm very jealous of your £9.99 vet charge (my vet charged me £25 + VAT) and the fact you can get your tests done at cost. :D

So apart from the one puppy who had really high levels and didn't need puppy vacs, do I understand correctly that all your pups have had puppy vacs but then not needed to be boostered at all?  Sorry if I've forgotten (rotten memory), but do you also give nosodes?  If I've understood you correctly, it looks like my information of high levels staying high is correct.  Can I ask why though you continue to titre yearly if this is the case, although I can understand you might as well when it is so cheap (grrrrrr) :D :D

LOL yep all my puppies have their vax(except Giff the one with the high titre levels at 12 & 20 weeks)but they do not have the lepto as this is the one that causes most of the reactions & also the worst reaction(from my friends research) I continue to check them for my peace of mind & my friends continuing research.

Yes I use nosodes as well they are so cheap & easy to give & cannot harm the dogs

Yes the Southend/Westcliff vet is sorely missed & he was a one man band too.

I'm lucky that apart from the time I was in Southend for three years I've been with the same vets since 1958 ! None of the original vets still in practice(one was in the "All Creatures Great & Small books)but their ethics remain very much the same. They do keep up with the times & since Scamp died they have changed their Vax procedures & do offer titre testing for older pets

I didn't give my puppy (now 14 months) the lepto vaccine either but do give him nosodes for that.  Always thought vaccination and nosodes were either rather than both so have never considered giving nosodes for anything I've already vaccinated for.

Loved those All Creatures Great and Small books!  Must be really strange for you to be at the same vets practice all that time and see vets come and go! :)  I bet you tell them the way things have always been! :D :D

I really hope the idea of titre testing takes off in vet practices - although it may be more expensive in some cases, it at least enables the owner to make an informed decision about boostering.  Don't think I've found one dog owner round my way who knows what it is when I talk about it.  I think all vets should at least offer it so people are aware that option exisits.

Loved those All Creatures Great and Small books!

LOL the vet from our practice was John Crooks & he was a brilliant surgeon & he & Alf Wight(James Herriot's real name)got up to some real high jinx. I also met AW when we took some pedigree pigeons from a breeder near him to be vetted-LOL he open the basket they were in-said"they look OK"signed the MAFF health forms & charged us £20 & that was back in the 1980's LOL the pigeons only cost £30 for 6 of them !

Now you've ruined all my hero worship of the man! :D

lolololol ;) well he was scottish ;)(can say that as I'm 1/8th scottish)

MM - Having given our puppy (now approaching 6 months) the full vaccinations at 10/12 weeks, when would you begin using nosodes ? - I'd thought of beginning early next year. Also, is the blood test a quick & simple thing - not too upsetting for the dog ? ...and me :)

I give the nosodes from when the vax boosters are due & the blood sampling isn't too bad. Even the cavaliers don't squeak & they really are babies with jabs.;) just like taking blood for human tests ;)

Rjj has had lots of bloods done for his titre tests, his PP, his pre op bloods(when he had his rear dew claws off) & his DNA samples poor lad thinks he has blood taken everytime we go to the vets

Thanks for that MM - I'd been wondering how the heck they find a vein easily in all that fur! Obviously they manage fine :)

If I understand correctly, a year after her vaccination would be when the first booster is due, and probably, 3 years after that.
- So next year, would I get her tested and then give nosodes, or start the nosodes first, then test ?
- and then subsequently give the nosodes each year in the recommended doses ? 

- sorry for all the questions but I'd like to start things the right way, and know what I'm doing -as lovely though he is, my vet doesn't seem to be a fan of alternative medicine ;)

To be on the safe side it would be worth titre testing every time a booster would otherwise be due - ie annually.

Yes, I can see the sense in that - thanks Jan :)

Or every three years as per some vaccine companies protocols ??

The first three years, perhaps. But every year after that, because I've not seen any manufacturer state their product lasts multiples of three years (some specify two years). So test at three years, four years, five years ... not three, six and nine, because immunity could have waned by 4½ years (beyond the manufacturer's guarantee) and the dog would be at risk for a whole extra year.

But then the only booster due annually would be lepto and most believe you can't titre for that. :)

The immunity from the others can wane at any time after three years (two, according to one manufacturer's protocol), so it makes sense to titre test annually. The longest guarantee I've read is for 3 years; six months later the immunity could start to fall, and waiting another three years to test would seem to be foolhardy. :)

I suppose people titre test for different reasons as well.  Some because they basically wish to follow the normal vaccination protocols but just want to make sure a booster is necessary and others because they believe regular boosters aren't necessary but just want titres to confirm that.  I've been told by an expert in the field that if initial titre results for parvo/distemper/adeno are high, they are subsequently very unlikely to fall significantly - this certainly seems to be the case with MM's dogs.  That said, I can understand owners continuing to titre annually just for peace of mind.

We know some dogs manage to maintain good antibody levels but what we don't know is which ones.  Nor do we know how sharply levels can drop off when the period of time that research has shown we can reliably depend on for all dogs has expired ie 3 years. (1 year for some vaccines but we do know they will have a sharp drop off)  For those that have a real fear of vaccines I suppose titre testing annually, after the first 3 years, is reasonable but I think they do risk a period of time, if we accept that levels ever drop, when cover will not be adequate.

The expert I was referring to didn't say with MLVs, high antibody levels don't significantly fall in certain dogs Isabel - it was a statement made about dogs in general.  I also know of a vet who is happy to advise people their dogs will never need vaccinating again when their titre test results show high levels of protection so he must also be confident to make that statement.  I know I won't convert you though!  :D  I do also accept, as I said before, that many people will wish to titre annually anyway for their own peace of mind.

BTW for people wishing to titre before boostering, the first titre for young dogs should be at around a year as this is when vaccine companies recommend a full booster before going onto the three year period.

>The expert I was referring to didn't say with MLVs, high antibody levels don't significantly fall in certain dogs

Sorry can't understand that sentence, is the comma in the right place? :) What are MLVs?.
As I say we know some dogs maintain sufficient antibodies for some years over the recommended booster period but we also know the protocols have been established on the basis of what we can reasonable expect for all dogs, the safety zone if you like :) 
You are right what one vet says would not convince me :) the protocols are established on the basis of the professions understanding as a whole.

>at around a year as this is when vaccine companies recommend a full booster before going onto the three year period

I can't find any mention of that in Intervet's protocols.

MLVs are modified live vaccines.  The not converting you bit was meant to be a joke - as shown by the grin - knowing as I do your support for current booster protocols and distrust of titre testing!  

Don't know why Intervet don't mention the first full booster at one year - in correspondence last year, they wrote to me saying "Given your puppy is over ten weeks of age, you are correct that the pup only needs a single vaccination on DHP (Distemper, Hepatitis and Parvovirus) to confer immunity to these diseases in its first year of life. However  to achieve longer lasting immunity, vaccination with DHP is required at the annual booster as well. After which, the pup only needs to be vaccinated with DHP every three years."  Perhaps they have changed their views since then.

Yes I realised you were kidding which is why I smiled at the very thought :)
Perhaps that recommendation was specifically for puppies given only one dose of the initial vaccination or maybe they did rethink it although the new protocols have been around for three or four years now and I don't remember ever seeing it.  I have not had a puppy vaccinated in that time, however, so maybe I will look more closely at what they are advising when that situation arises for me :) 

No Isabel, the suggested first full booster definitely wasn't linked to him only having one jab as a pup as I'm sure had this been the case, it would have been presented as an either/or position, ie either have the two puppy jabs or one puppy jab and a full one year booster.  Also their protocols do say "A single injection should establish active immunity to canine distemper, infectious canine hepatitis and disease caused by canine parvovirus infection in dogs of 10 weeks of age or older" and doesn't mention having to have a one year full booster afterwards.

It's a mystery then :)

I give nosodes from the date the booster would be due(Rjj's to start in another week with his nosodes)& his titre test is due the same time

Nosodes are given as follows

Administration:
For all dogs of all breeds and sizes, the dosage is the same.
1 tablet x 3 times daily for 3 days, then
1 tablet weekly for 6 weeks, then
1 tablet monthly for 6 months, then
stop giving and repeat this regime annually.

Thanks MM. I feel much clearer about the use of nosodes now :)

this regarding nosode administration reminded me of something: "For all dogs of all breeds and sizes, the dosage is the same"
When talking with our vet earlier this year about the possible problems with normal vaccination, he did say that he's never understood why a tiny dog like ours was would be given the same dose of vaccine as the very largest breeds.

I can understand it with something like homeopathy as it's such minute quantities and works in a different way, but I'd never considered that point regarding normal vaccines before.

Your vet said WHAT? :rolleyes:

I'd expect a vet to understand the basics about immunology

Perhaps he does - in fact, I'm sure he does. He did elaborate a little on the theory, but it was over my head - he merely doesn't agree that a tiny 2kg dog be given so much vaccine as a 22kg dog :)

I suppose they get just as much infection ...

You may find this worth considering. :)

Why would I want to consider that That's the company whose vaccine killed our dog ?

The reply was to Trisha's post, MM. :) Besides, 'consider' doesn't mean 'accept' - if you've considered it and rejected it, then that's fine. :) Others might consider and accept it. That's fine too. It's all useful information to help people come to a personal conclusion that they're happy with. :)

Yes - there is that consideration - and I have to admit that where I've have a lot of success personally with herbal and alternative medicine in general, homeopathy isn't one I've used much nor hold a whole lot of faith in, perhaps because of reports like the one you just indicated.

I think if titre tests produced low results, then perhaps I'd have to reconsider, but if a reasonable result was obtained, then I'd consider nosodes an additional insurance. I can't totally ignore the fact that there are some breeders who have raised various lines without the use of vaccines and never had any disease occur.

I think if next year we ask for a titre test before using any nosodes, it'll give a more clear indication of how good her resistance is.

I'm half Scottish - my Mum is from Glasgow and she will be round to sort you out after that remark! :D :D