Just wondering on peoples thoughts on this. Can you teach a show dog the sit, without it infterfering with there show career?

Some obedience folks say yes if you teach the stand as a seperate command you can, what do ya think?

Well I would usually say yes, BUT, when Lastar came over here from Spain and I started doing obedience with him he picked up the sit very quickly.  Now I have to stack him at shows which he doesn't really like but he won't stand with me in fromt of him anymore he always sits down

his daugther dose the same

With a puppy I would initially teach the sit only in sit stay exercises and not in the heel-work as an automatic behaviour on stopping.

As you are allowed to give as many commands as you like in Obedience until you get into Novice the automatic sit isn't really needed and would be a hindrance at first in the show ring until you have a confident show dog.

By that time you can go onto more precise obedience work and automatic sits and close heel work and the dog will know that the two kinds of work are different.

Use different commands for the obedience heel work to the show work, and some people use different leads, and your body postures will be different too, and the mature dog will know.

If you are a god trainer then you should be able to train both disciplines in tandem from the start without confusion, but for th average non competitive person I would start with Ringcraft and not include sit in the heel work at training classes for obedience.

The important thing is to not OVERDO the sit, and that is the main mistake most people make. The dog learns to sit for a treat, sit to wait for its food, sit to have its lead put on etc.  Any of that can just as easily be done with a stand stay, or better you can mix it so the dog never gets used to one command all the time for the same situation.

Having said that you can just as easily overdo the stand. I have one dog aged 15 months that it is hopeless to get to sit, usual trick of moving hand above his nose and back etc just makes him back away into a more correct stand as he's stood for everything.  (Hubby said I was going to ruin his show dog by teaching him to sit so HE overdid the stand. :rolleyes:  )

When I first joined obedience with Molly I asked that on the 'heel' walk, when we stopped instead of making her sit I just let her stand. This was ok as long as she didn't fidget and stood still, which she did. I didn't want her standing every time we stood still because of showing. The only time she sits is for a treat - don't use treats in the ring - and both sit and stand was practised along with the down and stay.
Agree with goldmali though, she takes a long time to sit whereas the other one, who I don't show, will sit for a treat without being asked :)

To be honest though unless I was wanting to compete in obedience I don't find I need the sit very often, stand, wait and down work for me much better, so slowness into sit isn't an issue.

When scavenging the dogs adopt the position most likely to be rewarded, which in this house will be the stand if I am on my feet or the down (pretending not to scavenge ).

They have all worked out that some people (various doggy owning friends who mostly obedience train) expect a sit before a treat and they do that for them.

That's the mistake I made!!  I decided that as Dylan wasn't going to be in the ring for a while, I'd start obedience with him to keep his brain occupied.  Now that he's back in the ring it has been quite difficult to stop him sitting every time I stop (though I think we've got over it now)!!!  I also had the same problem with my GSD who did obedience, agility etc. before I started to show her.  We did get there eventually, but it is a hassle!  I was told however,  not to use the command "stand" aswell as "sit".  I use "up" instead, as "stand" and "sit" sound too much alike.

Sarah.

I do both showing and obedience and have never found it a problem. 

I have taught both the stand and the sit, that way if the dog does sit you have the stand command to get them up in the stand again.  Although mine never seems to sit in the show ring, she has a different lead on for showing and my body signals are also different like holding the lead away from me for moving saying show trot, there is no confusion then with heelwork.

I have found friends that are anti teaching the sit for a show dog have more problems, as when they do sit they have to lift them into the stand as they don't know the commands.

When my puppies are still young and before they can go to obedience classes, I teach the stand. When they follow me to the kitchen I stand them for a treat and then 'release' them.  Hence, when I start obedience/socialising classes at 14 weeks they know the stand and I just basically make them sit for a treat and don't overdo the command.  I have never had a problem in the showring with any of them sitting when they shouldn't.

I had a bit of trouble with my first dog as the books all say teach the sit first, and never mention that it causes a problem with show stands. But he got the hang of it by 1 year or so, and now it's impossible to get him to do a heelwork sit, though he will sit in the present position. Must teach him one day! With my young girl, I taught stand first (slightly hampered by OH trying to teach sit, but I do most of the training so it wasn't too bad) and although she sits occasionally in the show ring she definitely knows the difference between finishing in a show stand, or doing an obedience heelwork sit. I remember doing the Gold Good Citizen test, when they just have to stop in a controlled fashion, and forgetting the warn the judge about my boy - her face when he swung out into a show stand on the stop command was priceless! I hastily explained and we passed no trouble! :-D

absolutely yes!!! I get heartily fed up when i ask clients to "sit their dog" for certain types of portraits & they give me rubbish about "hes a show dog, you mustnt train them to sit"......utter rubbish......i have two very well schooled champions here that both sit on command, as do all my other hounds & it doesnt affect their ring training one bit.

The Dog World photographer couldn't believe how good my girl was in sits and stands, I just left her and went behind him to get her attention.........got some brilliant photos.

I know what you mean Sandra, photographers are always surprised at how my dogs will just sit and wait! :-)

Certainly teach the sit, but, for a show dog, only on command. The last thing you want is a dog that sits automatically when you stop.

Always have done with my show dogs - different breeds, over the last 15 years - never had  a problem

Dogs are clever enough, when taught correctly to obey any command - my dogs all know that when they are at a show they stand for a treat as I give them the command Stand ......................... they would not think of sitting at a show unless I actually said to them SIT !!

All owners should not be worried about teaching basic obedience if they are intending to show there dog - dogs need manners too !

When my mum did both obedience and showing she used a different lead, she too has never had a problem with it.

Jenny

At ringcraft I teach owners that if they want to have their dogs sit they should choose a totally different sounding word for stand as some dogs confuse the "s" sound in sit and the "s" sound in stand.
Two bassets were having the same "s" sound problem and so I got them to use the word Up for stand and now they don't have any problems. I agree with earlier posters it can be done and that variation of situations when you ask the dog to sit or stand should be good practice, also using different leads for different disciplines also can be a big help.