ok the signs are as follows. bitch finished season at the end of aprill beggining of june. vulva stayed swollen and soft. nipples became larger and pinker and the hair around them became sparse. bitch had mornign sickness, became more lazy and more clingy. then started to look fulle rin the breast area, mainly the back teats. bitch now bagged up, leaking milk from back 4 breasts, has a cloudly thick vasaline looking discharge if you seperate the vulva. looks fuller in the rib area and feels fuller in the abdomnom area. bitch has become a lot more pickier with her food, has been digging her bed, and appears to get nauseous over somedog treats and hides them. she is also sleeping a lot more and stealing soft toys and guarding them, putting them in her bed.

does this sound liek a phantom or are there too many symptoms?

Whose bitch is this and shouldn't you/the owner know if an entire male has got to her?

Do you mean end of April to May, or end of May to June - it makes a bit of a difference!  I assume end of May, if so she would probably have been fertile mid May ish and be due now ish.  Perhaps a scan might be a good idea, some bitches have very convincing phantoms.  Is she yours?  Was she mated deliberately?  

no this isnt my bitch. i posted on here a while back about my friends bitch bella, as we thought she may of been having a phantom. she finished her season the same time as my bitch puepa. however as you remember my bitch puepa was spayed due to a tumor on her overy causing a hormonal imbalance. friend said that her bitch was only allowed to play with other bitches and castrated males. she started her season in the middle of april . we wallked our bitches out together at the time round the streets at night and early morning becasue they where both in season. she also took her bitch  to friends houses met up with friends who had bitches and castrated dogs. however we have since found out that one of the dogs she played with had no tlong been castrated. however the bitch was never tied. and so we always thguth that maybe the bitch was just having a phantom becasue she was mated by a castrated dog and it fooled her.

friend cut back on the protiens and stopped her from nesting as much as possible. and althougth the behviour seemed to calm down,. physically she has still gone though the changes. i woudl of thought that if she was pregnant she woudl be about 6-7 weeks .

Bitches can become pregnant from slip matings so a tie is not necessary. However as to how long a castrated male is still fertile I would not know.

Hi Wolfwoman

I'm glad for you that it isn't one of your bitches.  Castrated males can remain fertile for quite some time after being done - I'm sure someone will be along soon to give more details.

However, if she was mated in mid April, as that was three months ago (ie approx 13 weeks ago) she would have produced by now if she was pregnant.

she started her season mid april she didnt actually finish intill may.

Even if she was not fertile til pretty late in her season, eg early May, she still would have produced by now I would have thought.  That's more than nine weeks ago. 
I hope it's just a phantom anyway, for your friend's and the bitch's sakes.  Can your friend remember when she was mated by the dog?

bella played with the dog all the way througth her season and had done up till now as well. it was only when she started to talk to the owner about spaying that she found out the dog in question was only castrated the begginign of april. bella let the dog mount her all the way througth her season so it could of happend at any time.

Hi,

Even if you count the dates from the 1st week of May the pups would have been born at the beginning of this month, so unless the season dates are wrong, there is no way she can still be in whelp.

Castrated males can certainly stay fertile for many weeks afterwards. But if that is the one and only time in April/May that the bitch was accidently mated, your friend need not worry, pups will not be on the horizon now.

*Bitches can 'rarely' have prolonged seasons, but if this was the only male that mounted her just the once it is a phantom. A vet check may be in order.*

I had to have my MILs GSD xrayed once because I was looking after her during a family crisis and I was convinced she was about to have pups. Hairless nipples, weight gain, dug a huge crater under my decking to give birth in. (I'm not a complete novice, breeding an occasional breeder myself and being around lots of breeder friends' bitches.)

If it had been my own bitch, I wouldn't have been in that position because a) I wouldn't have let a phantom get that far and b) I'd have known she hadn't had the opportunity to be mated - but with someone else's bitch that went to work all day with landscape gardners without the sense to keep her safe, I was extremely worried.

Hopefully your friend is having the same problems.

M.

Hi Wolfwoman,
You say the season ended at end of april-beginning of june. May is in between these two months. Do you mean end of may-beginning of june. If this is so then your friends bitch is almost certainly pregnant. I have been breeding dogs for 42 years and the symptoms are too many for a phantom. The only alternative is a psuedo-pregnancy. These are quite rare, but I have known bitches to even go through labour and produce bags of fluid, but no puppies. For £25 or thereabouts, she can get the bitch scanned and be absolutely certain either way. Pregnancy usually lasts 63 days, but can vary by a few days either way according to breed. Good Luck. I'm sure we are all longing to know if she is pregnant, so keep us posted.

"....symptoms are too many for a phantom. The only alternative is a pseudo-pregnancy. "

Um, phantom and pseudo pregnancy are the same thing.  You are maybe distinguishing between the severity of symptoms, but all bitches undergo the same hormone changes whether mated or not.  The emotional and physical effects vary hugely, and most bitches do not have severe symptoms.

The only long term cure is spaying, if symptoms are too severe.

A friend of mine had a bitch whose phantoms and milk production went from one season to the next making the timing of spaying difficult.  there definitely seems to be a breed or family disposition toward severe phantoms.

A phantom pregnancy occurs when a bitch has not been mated but still produces a small amount of hormone from the Corpus Luteum as a by-product of oestrus. Phantom pregnancy is extremely common and has a purpose in nature. In the wild, only the Alpha female is allowed to mate. When she comes into season
most or all of the other bitches will come into season at the same time. The Alpha female's whelping co-incides with the other bitches phantom pregnancies, and as they all experience maternal feelings at this time, all the females in the pack particpate in raising the litter. Even if your bitch doesn't have a phantom pregnancy, you will often notice a change in her behaviour around the time she would have whelped had she been mated.
A pseudo pregnancy usually occurs for one of two reasons. Either the bitch was mated and re-absorbed the embryos and the Corpus Luteum continues to produce the full compliment of hormones. Or the bitch was mated but didn't 'take'. The act of mating itself triggers the production of hormones from the Corpus Luteum
and the body fails to register that no embryos are present. With a pseudo pregnancy, the syptoms are far more severe that with a phantom pregnancy.

Well you could be right :) but my understanding is the hormones are no different if a mating has occured or not and this theory certainly does not tie in with the couple of bitches I have known that were spayed due to severe phantom pregnancy symptoms despite never having been mated.

Have never seen the phenomenon differentiated like that. 

Interestingly the only time that my bitches have shown any noticeable signs of a phantom is when they have been unsuccessfully mated. 

At other times especially mature bitches that have had pups shop some more mammary or nipple development.

Yet I have known owners 0f at least half a dozen maiden bitches that had severe false pregnancies.

I believe a castrated dog can remain fertile for up to 6 months.

I find that hard to believe,where has the sperm been for all that time,there are no testes to store or produce them.

Rhona

The epididymis, for one. It's known that male rabbits can remain fertile for 4 weeks after castration, whereas with male rats it's only 8 days. It seems that the bigger the species, the longer they remain fertile after surgery.

the same with humans really they have no way of getting the sperm through once the tubes are tied or what ever, but they still do for about 6 months or sometimes longer!

I've seen a female rat mated up to 3 weeks after the male's castration and have heard this is not uncommon -- looks like there might be a lot of natural variability!

blooming hell!! who would castrate a rat??????/

A vet with very good eyesight? :rolleyes:

:D

A chap my husband knew vasectomised his rat!

Male ferrets (somewhat bigger I know) are routinely vasectomised so they can live with entire females, who need to be mated to keep them healthy.

Anyone with an aggressive male rat would have him castrated ... and anyone who wanted to keep him in with girls. It's not uncommon!

Just saying what the vet said when my friends dog was castrated - she asked as she has entire bitches.l

Yes I agree they may survive a month[although I find that stretching it a bit] but not 6 months,even humans are only checked for 3 months and their testes are still there and the vas deferens has been cut through. I must get my anatomy and physiology books out and see how long the sperm survives out side the testes.

Rhona

so if it is a phantom pregnancy how long can it go on for then?
assuming that she would of had a litter by now had she os been caught. would her body of gone througth the faulse labour and everything else has started to settle by now?

also am i right in thinking that it is not recomended to have her spayed during this episode. friend did take her bitch to the vet in the early stages and vet did say it was more liekly a phantom becasue at the time she did not know the dog bella had been playing with had not long been done, and she knew that bella for certain had not been near an entire dog. so vet said if that wass the case it had to be a phantom.

however with the new information, it coudl of been liekly she had been cuaght, but surely woudl of produced by now? even if i was a few weeks out on the date?

Hi wolfwoman, :-)

In answer to your question of how long a phantom will go on, it can be upto 2 months after a season has finished.

And it is not adviseable to have a bitch spayed whilst she is having a phantom.

Now to get your dates right, I know this isn't your dog, so not your fault but:
First post said April - June, a usual season is 3 weeks so there is confusion straight away.
                                  
Post further along says April - May which sounds correct, (And definitely means no pups as stated in my above post)

Then the bitch has played with the castrated dog uptil now, and I can sense that yourself or the owner are not sure whether or not the bitch has come out of season or even the correct dates/months.

If the bitch had a prolonged season and it lasted until June then there may be pups!

I really and truly would get the bitch over to the vets for a scan, it is the only way to know for sure.

wolfwoman I have to admit I am gobsmacked that your friend allowed her bitch to be mated by a castrated male anyway, and was not watchful to even know if it has happened or how many times, castrated male or not, no dog would be allowed to get friendly with my dog I just wouldn't allow it. Sorry to scold but there would not have been any confusion at all if she had been more caring for her bitch.

I hope that it does turn out to be a phantom, let us know the outcome.

yes sorry i missed may out compleatly!

the bitch started mid april and finished the into the first half of may. firend just let both bitch and dog play round, and bitch was humping dog just as much as dog was humping bitch. she shoudl of intraveined but thought it was just harmless fun.

how can you tell a bitch has had a prolonged season? and is it common?

It's not that common, but does happen, some may even stop and start again, some may have very long seasons, but they are not the norm.

The bitch will still have some colouring coming from her vulva whether red, or very light brown and can still become pregnant, silent seasons are the worst where there are no liquid signs at all, but that is not the case here, as you know a season started with colour in April.

If a male has mounted a bitch and there is total confusion, as to when a season truly finished, there are always small possiblilites of eggs still being fertalized.

If your friend knows that the season ended in May, then it probably is just a phantom.

Have you felt the bitch or seen any movement at all?

If it is a phantom she will self absorb the milk she is producing.

well if she was pregnant surely she would be ready to drop now at the very latest. yet you csn not feel any movement, or any obvious pregnancy.

even humans are only checked for 3 months

No I've known 2 male humans that were checked for SIX months, and even then they say it is never 100% certain as sometims the tubes do grow back together.(If you Google like I did you'll find details.) My husband was told this just recently and he was done over 15 years ago, they still won't say it is guaranteed even now.

If you take the testes off nothing grows back..................not that I am suggesting your Hubby takes that option ;)

:D :D :D :D

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:D

Surely thought because in a dog the testes are removed it would be different to a human. They rarely remove human testis due to the hormonal effect it would have. So that only really leaves the chances of sperm being in the tubes, and as the tubes are internal, the sperm would not live long due to the higher heat. So surely even thought it could be possible a few weeks after, a few months would be unlikely?

There was a case proved by DNA testing of a dog sirign a litter many months after castration, it was posted here.

Maybe the operation wasn't done properly,it may have had an undescended teste that was left behind and still producing the sperm. Curious and curiouser

Rhona

I found the thread and the male sired a litter 11 months after castration and it was 15 months before he was infertile.

here is the link:

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=438487;hl=castrated%20and%20fertile;hlm=and#pid438487

You won't get a vet to say exactly when a dog will become infertile after castration. There is no actual ever approximate time. The only way would be to do a sperm count ;)

I think the same applies to cats, one reason they do cats very very early

thats true MM and the same again for humans they can give an estimate but can't be precise that is why the men have to go through the sperm counts, I know it took my husband a year to get a clear result