Is it normal that stud dog owners allow a second visit to the dog if she does not take the first season she visits?  Reason why I am asking is that my friend has a stud Akita and the bitch has come to stay for a few days, they have had one short tie and then 2 slip matings  during the bitches optimum time. The bitch has not been easy to deal with so my friend would rather just the one visit which has been reasonably successful. Does she have to have the bitch come again next season or can she take the fee and leave it at that as the dog has serviced the bitch.??
thanks

Hi Danny,

the bitch owner is paying for the dog's service - which has been done.  That said, I'd have thought most reasonable stud dog owners would offer a free stud to the same bitch if she missed.   The fact that there was no tie does not mean she will not conceive. 

It would have been better to have these issues ironed out before a mating took place - now all I think anyone can reasonably do is wait and see if a litter is born - but certainly if your friend's dog is likely to be used again by anyone he should have a contract drawn up which both parties are agreeable to before the mating is done.

HTH, regards Teri

Right, just spoken to friend, who has stated that her Akita is to be exported out of the country to Denmark in july, so technically there wont be a dog for the second time. Is she just about to annoy the bitches owner as originally she said they could come again if she did not conceive, non of this is in writing, just verbal.

Much depends on whether the bitch goes on to whelp but if not then yes, I imagine it would annoy the bitches owner because she's already been offered a repeat stud and may not have used this particular dog had she known that he was not available for same.

Just one your friend will need to wait out on.

regards, Teri 

Certainly in my breed where the stud fee is the price of a puppy I would be very annoyed to waste £500 and not get a chance of a return.

Where you are paying a service charge (to cover the time and trouble) and then the rest on the birth of pups, then the service charge woudl not be refunded, but I would feel awful pocleting that sort of money and the bitch owner getting nothing out of it.

Hi

I didnt use one stud because they didnt give  repeat mating, my breed is not KC reg so there is no proof apart from sayso that the bitch had pups.

I did feel the lack of trust and the money involved they were charging double what everyone else was did put me of this person so found another. I have been lucky not to have needed the repeat mating but it is reasuring to know it was there is needed. I would have been so annoyed if the breeder hadnt told me that the dog was not going to be available again. 

Hi Danny
If your friend initially said that they could have a free return if the bitch missed, and now will not be able to honour that agreement, in my opinion she should return the stud fee if the bitch does not have a litter. 

They have agreed to half the stud fee for this seasons matings only. Hence bitches owner being returned half their fee plus possibly getting litter as well. Bitches owner has agreed to pay back the refunded half if litter born.

Does that sound better??

If the stud owner has already given back half the stud fee this seems a little silly to me, how long ago was the mating, has the bitch been scanned.  I would of asked for the bitch to be scanned before given back the stud fee, if after the scan and no pups where present i think the stud owner should refund the whole fee minus a small fee if the bitch stayed at the studs home because the stud is not avai;able to repeat. This is why it is so much easier if a contract is signed prior to mating

Stud fee is for the mating, although as has been said most people allow a bitch that has missed a free return. In this case I think a half fee now half when litter born is fair - although as stud dog owner I would not sign a KC form until paid. With my young(ish) dog for his first bitch I said that they could pay me if they got a litter.
Why does the bitch owner expect her to miss?
Often a big kennel will sell older males, but will often operate a free return to any dog sort of loose policy.

Hi

can I ask, highjacking the topic slightly. If you have a agreememt that you get a repeat mating if your bitch misses. What happens if the dog is no longer available? For example it has died, been neutard for medical reasons or even sold.

Usually the stud contract will stipulate that a free repeat will only be possible if both dog and bitch are still in the same ownership. If the dog's died or has been castrated then there could be no mating, free or otherwise, and there would be no reason for the bitch owner to demand a refund.

I always thought that(unlike horses)the stud fee in dogs is for the mating & not the puppies, if any, produced. Never had a bitch miss to any of my stud dogs(when I had stud dogs), but the stud fee receipt I issued was quite clear, free mating next season if the bitch missed or had a singleton puppy to the same dog if he was still in the same ownership & the bitch was in the same ownership

My friend used a German Ch that was in the UK for a short time & his German owner didn't get the stud fee until my friends bitch had her litter as she knew in advance that her dog would be back with her before the bitch was in season again, they are also friends which made the agreement easier

It has become the norm in my breed (because we are few in number and most people know each other) to pay the stud fee after pups are born when the stud owner will sign the confirmation of mating/registration form at the time they get the stud fee.

Where more people are involved with facilitating the mating, boarding the bitch or multiple ownership of the stud a small fee £50 non refundable is taken by the person overseeing the proceeedings., with the balance payable after.

This seems fair when the stud fee is a considerable sum equal to the price of a puppy.  I know that in some breeds the stud fee is quite nominal compared to others.

yes, i saw a stud fee for a british bulldog for £200 yet puppies are £2000! in my breed its the cost of a pup between £500-£600

In my breed when the cost of a pup was about £350 the stud fee to use the then breed CC record-holder was £275.

Wat happens if there is no tie do you still pay?

To be honest I wouldn't consider a slip mating a mating as you cannot be sure that the dog ejaculated, with a tie you know he has. 

I have never had a litter after a slip mating.

A Vet friend told me that the dog would have to be inside the bitch for at least a minute, and this happens quite a lot with toy breeds where the dog is held on to the bitch.

If only a slip mating was managed by my stud and we couldn't get a tie on another day then I would tel them to pay if the bitch had pups.

To be honest this is what we do in our breed anyway, most stud owners take the fee after the litter is born, some taking £50 non returnable at time of mating for their trouble (boarding bitch, entertaining owners etc).

I`m having this problem now.Dog missed the mark last night ,they want me to take my girl back again tomorrow(14th day.I have been lucky enough not to have experienced this before and I have never mated beyond 13th day so I have bad feeling about this.

I rarely have bitches standing before day 15 in my breed (even though they ovulate about day 12).

Might be an old wives tale but seems to go with my experience is that when the dog and bitch don't tie she is either not yet ready or has gone over.

My Kizi's mate couldn't tie with her on day 13, but on day 15 they were tied in seconds.  She had 9 pups my largest litter to date (my girls usually have had 3 to 7).

I am just worried as her mother was so easy and tied on day 11 both litters,my girl is a maiden but has been standing without any problem and for long times stud has shorter legs than my girl .

I entirely agree with brainless. If they do not tie, it is usually because the bitch is not 'holding' the dog, and is therefore not ready or has gone over. On the subject of stud fees, a couple of years ago, I took one of my bitches to one of the Queen's gundogs. I didn't have to pay the stud fee until the puppies were 8 weeks old, (bless her).

Oh that's interesting, how did that come about Saxon, I mean the mating? (Just being nosy!!)

I'll tell you Goldmali. I wanted to re-introduce some Sandringham blood into my working strain, (I breed both working and showing Labs), as it had become rather diluted over the years. Luckily, I know one of the stud managers, (horses), so I rang him and he put me onto the head gamekeeper who told me they had two dogs and I could choose which one I would like to use if they approved my bitch and her pedigree. Which they did. I have to say, I had a fabulous litter. They are shaping up into very good workers and one of them has been shown at open show level and has never been unplaced, (though to be fair, he hasn't been shown a huge amount and doesn't quite have enough substance to to be top class. Stunning head though.) All the pups have fabulous temperaments.

Finally got a tie on day 15 .I was ready for no pups now the uncertainty begins.The tie happened very fast also took me by surprise .

what i did two years a go was the was a service fee then then rest of the stud once the puppy were two weeks old.

there all different way to arrange a stud fee
1, a service fee of £50 t0 £ 75 non refund beacuse that your time  for the stud work ect, only one off service fee, but two mating with 48 hours of each other then the rest off the stud when the puppys are born ,which has been agree with each breeders.
this way the dam owner only lost out on the service fee.then if the bitch dosnt have puppy the owners has not lost a big stud fee and wouldnt have to go back to the dog again on the next season.

then theres the service fee then so much for each puppy that lives like £50 or more for each puppy.

then there a stud fee the price of a puppy,
but i paid out £75 service fee then once the puppy;s where born i had to pay £925 as the stud fee was £1000, but i could not been my self to sale the puppies for £1000.

which i thing the service fee is a fair deal.

Slip matings can still result in puppies. Did fluid come from the bitch after the dog got off? If so then you know he ejaculated inside her, and that should be enough.

No fluid down her legs on first slip mating.I don`t think it will produce pups.

Table mated breeds you can kind of keep them their for a bitty :-)

I mated a bitch for a freind of mine and her bitch never ties. I thought it was the strangest thing ever but she had puppies.  You can general tell by the length of the mating and the fluid if it was a problematic bitch.

I had a similar scenario a few years back. My male was used on a bitch & she missed. The owner paid for the stud fee at the time of mating. Unfortunately, when the owner rang to say, i had to tell him that the stud had died a few weeks before. At the time he was understanding. He then rang again a week later saying he had spoken to some of his farming friends & they had said that he should have a repeat mating. I said, "what with, the dog is dead" He wouldn't let go & then started asking for his stud fee back. I told him he was paying for a service not for puppies.

A very good friend of mine offered her stud dog as the repeat mating to which the bitch owner jumped at the chance. I the end nothing came of this because the bitch owner never contacted me in time & the 'new' stud was on his holidays at the time she would have needed mating.

I would have thought it was good manners and accepted practise to honour a non preganant bitch and either offer a repeat mating, or if that isn't possible, then a refund of monies paid??

But you pay for the service, not for puppies.  Most bitches don't conceive because the owner takes them on the wrong day and the stud dog owner has spent hours grovelling around on their hands and knees trying, as well as being hospitable to the owners! :(  I wouldn't expect the stud dog owner to refund under such circumstances.  I'm not sure that I would want to waste more time on people who didn't know what they were doing either? :(  I've never kept a stud dog but have seen many breeder friends trying to be polite to owners of pet bitches.

If the stud dog is continually found to not produce and has a problem, then I would expect the stud dog owner to refund, but not if it isn't the dogs' fault.

I'm not involved with breeding - however -

I understand what Val says about stud dog owners having to spend time grovelling around on their knees and that it's a service which has taken place, whether the bitch missed or not BUT... is that service worth about £650?!!?!?  That's what the average stud fee is in my breed, anyway. 

If no puppies are forthcoming, and the stud dog owner has spent 2 hrs grovelling around - that's hard manual labour and that's 2 hours - but I wouldn't pay someone £325 an hour for ANYTHING!

Of course there should be some financial remuneration if the bitch misses, but it shouldn't be the whole stud fee, surely!!!  

123, I've seen bitch owners travel from the other side of the country with a bitch obviously not ready to be mated, the stud dog owner try to effect a mating for 4 hours, feed the owners, put them up for the night, give them breakfast and then try for another couple of hours before they leave to go home in the morning.  The stud dog owner is exhausted and with a frustrated stud dog to calm down.  All this when the stud fee in my breed was £150!  Then, having learned nothing, they ring in 6 months time and expect the stud dog owner to go through it all again.  Not what I consider to be easy money!

Well, in that case, there should definitely be some sort of compensation for lodging, food etc etc  And it probably also depends on what the stud fee is in the breed concerned.  In that situation, I think all that lot probably comes to around £150 anyway, so you'd be right to take the whole stud fee.  But for a few hours and with a stud fee of £650, it would be different.  Probably it all depends on the individual circumstances??

I still think that it's up to the bitch owner to bring the bitch at the right time or not complain if they get no pups.  If they've accepted that the fee is £650 , then that's the amount that they are risking by not knowing what they are doing.  It's only the stud dog owner's fault if their dog has a problem?????  I really don't see why they should offer anything if they and their dog have done what they agreed to do.

Other stud dog owners will offer to keep the bitch for a week (and not the owners! ;) ) but if the owners bring the bitch too late, then she still has to be kept seperately from the owner's dogs, fed, let out for exercise seperately, kept away from any other stud dogs etc.  It's really all a bit of a phaff!!  The only stud dog owners who make easy money are those who only try for 5 minutes with a bitch from down the road and then say "Try again tomorrow"!  Not what I would call dog breeders - just puppy producers.

I think the fee for just the service is fair enough when it is a low fee, but in breeds like mine where it equated to the price of a puppy (plus the owners travelling expenses and vet expenses if doing premates etc), money for no result seems unfair.

A service charge and the rest payable on birth of pups seems a lot fairer.

In many countries a small service fee is charged and then so much per pup born. 

This works in the bitch owners favour where the litter is small (and the charge per pup reasonable) and in the stud owners favour if the litter is large, or the per pup amount quite large).

Personally if I was a stud dog owner I wouldn't want a per puppy payment as the pup numbers are down to the bitch.

It certainly used to be the case that the fee was payable for the service.  However, I think things seem to be changing.  It is up to individual stud dog owners to decide their terms and then up to the bitch owners whether they decide to accept them or not.  I think the problems occur when things have not be made clear and agreed to before the mating takes place.  I have never taken payments for the services of my various boys over the years if no pups result, but that is my choice.  I think I probably should charge some sort of expenses, as it can be very time consuming to accommodate unco-operative bitches (probably brought at the wrong time). 

as it can be very time consuming to accommodate unco-operative bitches (probably brought at the wrong time).

Too right! :D

Hopefully she will not need to have the bitch next season and all is well and pups are now on the way, it only really takes one tie.  Having the bitch for a few days is very good of your friend, however if your friend wishes to have a good reputation and the bitch is not pregnant, then I would recommend that she have the bitch F.O.C. the next season, some breeders will give a bitch 3 goes before calling it a day. (Though it is very rare to have to go to extreme's like that.) After that amount of time it is pretty apparent if the stud is proven that the bitch has a problem and it is not your friends dogs fault.

It is in the interest of all stud dog owners to be as helpful and tolerant as possible, otherwise word will spread extremely quickly and your friend may well find her stud redundant.

*Just seen your second post on the stud going abroad before the bitches next season* Personally I would have waited until pregnancy was confirmed or denied before returning any money, but as is done and dusted that is all your friend can do now.  I would still be annoyed if my bitch was not pregnant and I had paid half the stud fee and got no return, I wouldn't be recommending your friend. Hopefully all is well, I expect pups will be on the way.

A friend of mine charges £100 handling fee on the day, and a cheque for the remainder, dated 4 weeks hence.  It it then up to the owner of the bitch to let the stud dog owner whether their bitch is in whelp or not.  I don't believe in paying nothing at the time of mating as there are bitch owners out there that expect the stud dog owner to wait for their money until after all the puppies are sold!  The same person rips the cheque up if only one puppy is produced.

I have had a litter of 9 puppies from a slip mating and have known others who have have slip matings and produced puppies and at the same time no puppies from having had a tie.

I had two slip matings with the result of 6 puppies born the day before the due date of the first mating.

What was it ARW wrote in Dog World several weeks ago?  Something along the lines of people will travel the length & breadth of Britain on any day of the week to show their dogs, yet when it comes to mating their bitches they want the convenience of a weekend mating and the dog living in the next town!   :rolleyes:

In my breed, a stud fee is usually paid once the breeder has sold their puppies or has just about sold them all.  And the fee is a price of a puppy which ranges from £500-£600 depending on who you go too.