I took my 14month old westie to the park today and he had a jolly good romp around in the stream, with other dogs. He was then playing with one running round and round in a circle on the field, both of us started to call our dogs back, then another dog and owner walked into the 'play area' so that her dog was right next to mine, and mine then investigated the other dog. She immediately picked her dog up (not on lead) and screamed get "your dog away or he will go for it." I ran over calling my dogs name, she was turning circles with her dog in her arms so mine was following, her companion grabbed my dogs harness and I took my dog and put it back on the lead. She was still screeching so I got angry and shouted at her, " your dog attacks other dogs? what are you doing walking in public without it muzzled?" She walked off and the owner of the dog mine was playing with followed her. I could hear her muttering as though I had upset her and someone else saying "dont take any notice". ........

I felt quite shaken although nothing actually happened. Perhaps I have been lucky but people here are usually really friendly. Just a few minutes before lots of dogs had run across the field into the water and she could have encountered any of them.  I dont think I did anything wrong as my dog was playing with another dog and she brought it over into their circle, but would appreciate your advice and if there is anything I should do another time?

Sounds really unfair to me, that if her dog isn't reliable then she shoudn't allow it off lead around others. I had an experience with mine on a lead being snarled and snapped at recently by an oblivious owner. (at least she claimed not to realise her dog was going for mine) Why oh why are they off lead, or cant they just be honest and say sorry this is not usual behaviour if that be the case.

then another dog and owner walked into the 'play area' so that her dog was right next to mine,

If her dog was likely to go for others, she should not have done the above! to start with.
I can't see that you were at fault - :)

Lindsay
x

I can see both sides if this. The aggressive dog obviously was under control - she picked it up. You couldn't get your dog back and it was running round the aggressive dogs owner is that correct? I have a dog that doesn't like other dogs and my pet hate is people who have no control over their own dog and say things like 'he only wants to play' while you are clearly trying your best to keep your dog from eating it! That said I don't walk him in places where I might meet other dogs and he is muzzled. I would say nobody is really to blame - just chalk it up to experience, I don't think the aggressive dogs owner done anything wrong in picking her dog up and asking you to keep yours away to be honest.

I must disagree here. The woman obviously doesn't know dogs if she was screaching. Any high pitched noise will just make a dog more exited. OK, she picked her dog up, but why was it there if it doesn't like other dogs? And why didn't she just stand still and wait calmly to give the OP a chance to grab her dog?

I don't think you did wrong, and I would put it down to experience (and a good excuse to get a nice bottle of something tasty to calm your nerves ;) )

Absolutely can not see the other woman's point of view, all friendly dogs in an allowed dog off lead area, are perfectly within their rights to run and play with each other off lead.

An unfriendly dog should not have been off lead in the first place, it is an owners responsibillity to make sure that their dog does not attack another dog/person, not other dog owners responsiblility.

If her dog was on a lead and yours approached it, I can understand her upset and asking you to lead yours so as not to be harmed, but off lead dog to off lead dog, you were in no way to blame. 

Silly woman!

Also like to add, it is in any dogs nature if someone picks up a dog and turns in circles for  the dog on ground to want to see what is going on in the persons arms, your dog would have thought it a good game, although mine has excellent recall even back with me leaded she would have wanted to know what the woman was hiding.  The woman acted stupidly.

An unfriendly dog should not have been off lead in the first place, it is an owners responsibillity to make sure that their dog does not attack another dog/person, not other dog owners responsiblility.

VERY much disagree with this statement. An unfriendly dog (which may simply be scared, for whatever reason) should have the same right as all other dogs to be off lead, PROVIDED it is totally reliable at recall etc. It should NOT have to put up with other people's dogs approaching it, as NOBODY should allow their dogs to approach anybody else's without FIRST having asked to see that it is okay.  It works both ways......

To Goldmali,

In a large field with a distance between the two and then one dog approaching another I would agree with you, but in this inst, that was not the case two dogs were happily playing together and the woman and 'aggressive' dog walked into their playing area that is totally the responsibilty of the woman, the playing dogs would automatically go up to this other dog to welcome and join in the play, that is in the nature of friendly dogs.

I guess we all have different opinions on this, but for myself, I wouldn't dream of spoiling other dogs socialising and fun games just because mine was not friendly. I think most of us meet up with other walkers and have our dogs run and play together, if a strange dog were to suddenly appear amongst them I certainly would not expect the other 5 owners to quickly recall their dogs, incase of hostility, I would expect it to also be friendly, and if not it should be on a lead.

I know not all of us are lucky enough to have friendly dogs, but if I were to have one that was not a dog lover,  although I would want it to run free too, the moment I saw another dog I would automatically put it on a lead, I feel that is being a responsible owner and I would be extremely vigilant watching out for other dogs all the time.

Perhaps this woman was not watching, too busy talking to her friend perhaps, but I would not blame a little Westie for saying hello to another off lead dog, we train dogs to recall but it is in a friendly dogs nature to investigate and say hello to others. I would always be aware of that fact if my dog was not the same way inclined.

the playing dogs would automatically go up to this other dog to welcome and join in the play, that is in the nature of friendly dogs

Wrong!! its upto the owner to let that happen! thats where recall comes

A little westie? do you know how much damage a little dog can do and the owners let them get away with it because ahh they are small they are sweet no dog is little its got teeth hasnt it and is as much danger as a large breed with teeth! I've had a jrt rip the hell outta one of my dogs shoulders and whilst a large breed shes cumbersome and isnt as quick, so that point is lost on me.

I guess we all look at things from our own perspectives and types of dogs, those of us with friendly dogs will not really understand it from your side of the fence and vice versa. I will always feel an unfriendly dog should be on lead when around others and should need no interaction with an owner to check. I will only recall my dog from one on lead as that signals a problem, but have never needed to recall or converse with an off lead owner, that signals an approachable dog. I have yet to meet an off lead dog which was not approachable. Maybe I have always been lucky.

Most people with friendly dogs will also feel this to be so, I guess we do not understand each other do we, no wonder we have problems.:rolleyes:

Why on earth should i feel the need to recall a dog that is 2 paces in front of me? i havent got the recall problem others have.

My GR is really friendly with other dogs but I always put him on his lead if I see another dog whilst out walking as he is still a youngster and very bouncy. I will let him back off again if the other owner doesn't mind.
Different owners have different ideas and it is quite annoying when I have put him back on lead and an off-lead not particularly friendly dog comes up to him but at least I know I have done what I can to prevent any problems.

Good for you -  wish more people would do that.  A lot of people with youngsters in the big breeds don't realise how scarey their puppy's boisterousness can be to small dogs. My lad was terrified of a young FCR that used to charge up to him in that boisterous flattie manner and would growl like mad at him. The owner could never see that to a little terrier this was like an elephant leaping about would be to us.

Well I have only friendly dogs and can assure you they are recalled and put on lead at the mere whiff of a strange dog anywhere around.

"if a strange dog were to suddenly appear amongst them I certainly would not expect the other 5 owners to quickly recall their dogs, incase of hostility,"

Well, I would expect just that :rolleyes:

I wouldn't. I'd keep an eye on it and assess the situation.

ditto, as getting all Gun ho about it may actually cause a problem where none exists, but I do expect and get common sense from my dogs where their own species is concerned.

Recalling your dogs is hardly getting "gung ho".  Instead ending up in a situation where someone is turning in circles to avoid your dog (whether or not they were in the right or wrong) is hardly pleasant....

But it would require you never letting your dog be more than a few feet away from you, always restricted just in case someone walks into view.

With my breed this would mean lead only walks for ever as they simply are not Velcro dogs.

I spend a lot of time when they are young ensuring that they are good with other dogs and people no matter their temperament, so I do not need to curb their natural independent natures unreasonably.

If they are 100 feet ahead of me and another dog hoves into view they may stop and exchange a greeting with it, they may not, a lot will depend on it's body language, often as not they will walk on by, or I will tell them to walk on.  If they are playing tag and not aware of approaching dogs or people that might get caught up they are told to steady when they will come to a walk, probably still say hello, but I see no need to be recalling them constantly.

The result would likely be a rather slow recall, or eventually they would get sick of the constant nagging and do a deaf un.

I must say I am a bit more circumspect any time I have a visiting Male with me, as of course their sexual status may cause an issue for some dogs.

When walking with a friend with a large dominant working breed who were excellent with most dogs, but would not tolerate an aggressor the tactics were different, we simply would turn and walk another way.  It was less of a pain than constantly calling a dog that was happily enjoying itself to be put on lead.  also half the time the dogs weren't aware why we had changed direction, so they never got to be worried by the presence of other dogs simply from handler reaction.

Yes it would be great if all handlers/owners and dogs were able to be trained to such a high degree that they would be instantly obedient, but the vast majority aren't and in fact have no need to be in most instances if they have a good natured relaxed dog with relaxed and aware handler.

I disagree.  I'd rather that dog owners were educated in doggie etiquette, part of which is recalling their dogs when another comes along, the other part is making sure that, if they have a dog which they are going to let off the lead, that they have a reliable recall.  (Or it shouldn't be off lead.)

It doesn't mean that your dog has to walk next to you - you can tell from your dog's body language if it has clocked another dog or not, and take that as a sign to recall it.  Or, if you spot the dog first, recall it.

The result of recalling them frequently wouldn't be a slow recall, in fact it would give people the chance to practise their recall often and under different conditions.  If an obedience trainer wants a reliable Sit, they don't stop practising the Sit, because their dog "would get sick of the constant nagging and do a deaf un"?  In fact that would probably mean a worse Sit, under distractions.  The recall is a behaviour just like any other and the more it is practised, as long as the rewards are of high enough value, the better it will get - not worse.

Constant repetition is guaranteed to switch off an independent breed like mine :D

Mine aren't independent but constant repetition certainly bores them to death so they switch off. Two or three recalls on a walk is plenty or you've blown it! (That's why they don't retrieve thrown toys. They might once, to be helpful, but if you throw it again they assume you don't want it and aren't going to waste their time and energy getting it again!)

That is why I gave up taking balls on walks with this breed, they just didn't see the sense in it, they would chase it once or twice and then n more.  Toys beyond puppyhood are of very little interest.

Now a dead or live bird etc in the undergrowth that will be retrieved with alacrity :D

im sure "something" must motivate dallys & elkies.....food/liver cake?

Once or twice, maybe. After that it's boring. Repetition is self-defeating for intelligent dogs.

Depends what rewards you're offering and what the motivation is, JG. 

I'd like to think that I have highly intelligent dogs, and they can perform repetitions of any behaviour to the point where I get bored long before them.

There are different measures of intelligence.  Trainability is one, the independent ones are great with problem solving (outwitting you) :D

Elkhounds are food motivated to a point, but not if there is something better, and I wouldn't keep them hungry enough for it to override anything else as it would require starving them.

Also I suspect they would hunt up their own snack if pushed to it.

I started to feed mine in the mornings to stop the scavenging so and so's (spayed older girls) going for the take away left overs conveniently left around in the summer, nothing will call them away from free grub, as sadly spaying reduces their food needs and they are always hungry :D

Muzzles didn't work as they just flick them off, haven't yet sen any available in the UK they could keep on.

Absolutely nothing that any human can offer beats rootling around in the hedgerows in the hope that a rabbit will come out. And if truth be told, nothing beats watching them working a hedgerow as a team. :)

> Absolutely nothing that any human can offer beats rootling around in the hedgerows

Tara wouldn't agree :D To her nothing beats playing football, then diving into the stream and sitting in the deepest pool to cool off, trying to make sure that her football doesn't drift off downstream :D :D :D

Daisy

>sitting in the deepest pool to cool off

(Said in a shocked-dalmatian voice) You mean go in water on purpose??!! Never! :D

Elkhounds think the stopper pad is to detect when they have entered water past a safe depth. :D  There are the very odd exceptions that like water

LOL! Mine walk carefully around puddles!

It was Tara's love of water that saved her leg - she ran off into it the stream, so had to have her bandage changed, so we discovered the infection in her leg :(

Daisy

Yes, but what you're both forgetting is that these are rewards, just like any other reward and IF you're interested in having a well trained dog (which doesn't seem to be a high priority to some people, and fair enough) you should be in charge of when your dog gets this incredibly potent reward.

For example, I would ask for a behaviour first, click and then release the dog, and as a reward for the behaviour, allow it to go and root in the hedgerows.  Same goes for contact with other dogs: recall your dog, if the other person is shouting that their dog is friendly while your dog is recalling, click your recall and after your dog has reached you, let your dog go and play with the other dog.  As a reward for the recall.  Not for free and on their own terms.  How much will your dog want to come back to you then, if it realises that playing with other dogs is contingent on the recall?  (And it enjoys playing with other dogs.)

Rewards are not just food and toys, they are all around the dog in the environment. 

If your dog finds other dogs or the environment rewarding, then harness those rewards and use them well and you'll have a dog which will do anything, any number of times for you.  Allow your dogs to have it all for free, and they just won't understand why they should do anything. 

>How much will your dog want to come back to you then, if it realises that playing with other dogs is contingent on the recall?  (And it enjoys playing with other dogs).

I think you're in danger of anthropomorphising here. ;) If the dogs are doing their own thing (and that's the whole point of a walk, remember - it's for their benefit) and they begin to associate the presence of another dog with the cessation of their enjoyment, they're not going to be too impressed. They're not humans, able to make the leap of thought that stopping a fun thing then possibly being allowed to get back to it is rewarding. As soon as they make the association that 'Dog appearance = fun stopping' you've lost.

>If the dogs are doing their own thing (and that's the whole point of a walk, remember - it's for their benefit) and they begin to associate the presence of another dog with the cessation of their enjoyment, they're not going to be too impressed

The trick is to train another behaviour that is even more rewarding than doing their own thing so that behaviour becomes their 'own thing' through choice. 

Not really, not if you've trained the recall to mean "come here and get a tasty treat" and not "come here, it's the end of the walk" or "come here and have your lead put on".  To do this, you just recall them when you don't need to and let them go and play again, or sniff around again.  They learn that the recall command means "there is a very tasty treat here for you"...and that's all.  Not - end of fun, because they are allowed to immediately go and play again.

When another dog appears, the recall still means this.  They choose to leave the other dog because the recall command has been conditioned so strongly, and because they know from experience that it doesn't mean "end of fun", as usually it hasn't in the past.  If you can then go and let them play with the other dog as a reward for the recall, that just adds something they naturally find fun into the recall reward.  Of course you won't want to let them go and play with every dog as a reward for a recall, because some you might not consider suitable, but even if it only happens occasionally it will be a very powerful reward.

Of course, though, if you only recall your dog when another dog appears and then you usually don't let it go and play with the other dog...and, as a lot of owners, you don't even give a reward for the recall, pretty soon your dog will learn that another dog means end of fun and not come to you.  It's all in the details.

>If your dog finds other dogs or the environment rewarding, then harness those rewards and use them well and you'll have a dog which will do anything, any number of times for you.  Allow your dogs to have it all for free, and they just won't understand why they should do anything.

>If behaviours are breaking down when you ask for repetitions, then they are not adequately trained and proofed in the first place.

Couldn't agree more!  :-)

I'd be interested in the breeds/types of dogs you own or train, as it makes a huge difference.

Oh I heard a saying that applies here.  Some dogs live to please you and others live to please themselves.

I think they all live to please themselves, if pleasing us gets them something they want, then they live to please us too.  :-D

You know Bryony's lot and they are pretty well trained, but there are circumstances/situations where she cannot/would not take the risk to  rely on them.

I gave up flyball for that reason.  She would get really excited for the first couple of runs and would perform perfectly.  After that even though she appeared wound up for retrieving she was more interested in smells in the grass halfway along the track :rolleyes:  she is the same at the park, once or twice is enough and after that I'm retrieving the toys myself.

This is an interesting thread, mostly because there seems to be no middle ground.  I can see both sides but how your dog reacts around other dogs will dictate how you think other people should behave.  My own experience is that my dog was chased a few times by dogs when she was a puppy.  Even though she went to puppy classes and was introduced to dogs in controlled environments it only took the one nasty little JR to cause her to run everytime a dog approached her. At training classes, agility classes and flyball she's been great with other dogs but off lead in the park is another matter. She shows no interest in approaching dogs herself but if they approach her directly she will run then turn and chase them.  I try to follow this by then trying to get the dogs to engage while mine is on the lead (with the other dog owner's permission, so far always granted).  My dog is then ok to be let off the lead.  However, she is still likely to chase the next dog that gets too close.  Based on this I prefer that other people do not let their dogs just run up to mine.  If they want the dogs to interact then ask me and I will explain how I can get my dog to this in a controlled way. 

If behaviours are breaking down when you ask for repetitions, then they are not adequately trained and proofed in the first place.

Cheryl - that is v sensible and your case shows again why it's best to check in with an owner before letting dogs socialise off lead.

It might have been a lot worse if this lady said nothing and your dog got attacked and bitten.  

It sounds like she panicked, maybe she shouldn't have walked where she did, maybe she should have had her dog on a lead, would that have stopped yours investigating hers?   Hindsight is a wonderful thing...not all dogs and owners are friendly. 

IMO dog walking manners are that if a dog is wandering about off lead it signals to other owners that it is safe.

If an owner calls their dog to heel/puts it on lead that signals that it has a problem and other owners should put their dogs on lead/walk at heel.

As someone else said maybe you should polish up your dogs recall, but you can't read minds her dog should have been on lead if she didn't want others approaching it.

Unfortunately theres a minority of dog owners with unsociable dogs who believe they should run free and do as they like and everyone else should walk on lead all the time.

>Absolutely can not see the other woman's point of view, all friendly dogs in an allowed dog off lead area, are perfectly within their rights to run and play with each other off lead.

Absolutely, carrington!

Not long ago we were walking back along a downland path when a similar incident occurred. Nips hadn't even noticed the dog in question which was some way off minding its own business quietly snarfing about in some longer grass but suddenly this hysterical woman started screeching "Call your dog off or mine will have it!". To be honest, she made such an eejit of herself that although we did quietly put Nips back on the lead, we laughed and it certainly never occurred to us to feel guilty about walking our reliable dog off lead. I didn't intend to get into an argument with her but I did say, politely, that if her dog was likely to attack another it might be better to keep him on a lead. The response was to look at me as if I was a complete loony and drag the still off-lead "vicious brute" down the path where presumably she was planning to throw a few more ab-dabs.

The difficulty amongst all this, of course, is that there is and there will be unfriendly dogs and owners walking dogs off lead. 

It's all right us saying they are wrong and we are right, or them saying they are right and we are wrong - it's still going to happen. 

So what does one do? Continue to let our dogs run up to strange dogs and then shout and complain at the owner if our dog gets bitten? 

Or shout and complain at the owner for asking us to recall our dog as it may be bitten.

That's not going to help anyone's dog.

My next door my neighbour let her off lead dog run up to another off lead dog and what happened? - her dog suffered horrendous injuries and had to be PTS.  The case went to court, what happened? Absolutely nothing!

The case in point is that if we let our dogs run up to strange dogs and owners without permission then we must be prepared to be faced with aggression in one form or another.

There's no one right answer. If we choose to have dogs we must accept the chance that they'll get into a scrap. That's life - we have to take the rough with the smooth. 9 times out of 10 it'll be fine - and we all (including the dogs) learn from all the experiences, good and bad.