I can see both arguments as i read it the ladies dog was off lead but then you say you had to run to get your dog back so that to me says she had hers beside her albeit not on a lead but maybe under her control whereas you let yours run upto hers?
Our girl is still a bit norty but she has spot on recall, i could walk her anywhere off lead and she will not move more than 2paces ahead of me if told to 'slow' but if a dog enters her 'comfort zone' she aint happy but i can see why people will allow this as they think ahh off lead so shes friendly. (luckily were we are incidents like that a far and few between)

Just put it down to experience as jeangenie says you can't please everybody nor can you read other peoples minds and instinctly know.

Thanks for your replies,but I think that some of you havent really read my mail properly. My dog did not run up to hers, it was playing with another dog and she and her dog walked into the area that the 2 dogs were playing in. I am the first to admit that my dog is still a work in progress and recall does not always happen but in this case my dog did not run up to hers. He was playing happily with another dog. My dog was actually being quite good at recall because I was calling him, giving him a treat and then letting him go again as per training sessions. I think I would have been able to get him back again if the silly woman hadnt panicked and dangled her dog in front of mine! Her dog wasnt actually giving any signals that he didnt want to play with the 2 dogs so it took me completely by surprise. I still feel that if she knew her dog attacked others she should have had him muzzled at least. That is what happens when my dog trainer takes a group out for a for a social walk. However I still feel that my confidence was shattered.

So the woman walked her dog right into the middle of the other dogs' game, then picked it up? Otherwise the other dogs would have had to have gone over to where she was.

Picking up a dog is both good and bad; the picked-up dog can't hurt another, but the fact that it's been picked up will interest others, making them curious.

Training/walking is always a 'work in progress' - it's never complete, just as we humans will never know everything.

Sorry i must have misread but you clearly said you had to run to get your dog back so i presume he wasnt next to you then.

I find it hard to believe a woman with an 'iffy' dog will intentionally walk into the middle of a play area with other dogs, as shes shown she knew what her dog was capable of.

My dog and the other dog were playing running around in a circle so I wasnt right up next to them as their position kept changing within the boundary of their play area. The other owner was walking in a straight line across the field into their play area not around them.

Sorry, I can't help thinking I'm missing something here.

This lady and her dog walked into the area where your dog was playing with another.

If your dog didn't run up to hers and it was playing with another dog at the point she entered the dogs play area, this lady and her dog must have walked straight up to your dog, am I right?  And what was your dog's playmate doing then?

The owner of the dog yours was playing with followed her.  Was she the one that was muttering as though she'd been upset? 

I am truely glad that she did pick up her dog, its just the inference that mine was in the wrong for being there! if she had been a bit apologetic or just explained things in a straight forward manner iI would have understood, I don't believe that only 'good' dogs should be allowed out in public, but the right precautions have to be taken, and also if her dog is known for attacking others she should have had it muzzled. I am glad for your comment though that training/walking is always a work in progress, I have never seen a perfect dog yet, though I yearn to be the first!!!:rolleyes:

maybe as you say you couldnt even pinpoint what route your dog and pal were taking so how could this lady?

Sometimes (and i've been there) its a case of head down get moving asap hopefully not attracting the attention of other dogs. The lady sounds as frustrated as you were and like i said can see both sides.

Maybe she has an aggressive dog because her dog has an hysterical owner. Swooping her dog into her arms and shrieking at you must have alarmed her dog enormously and if she does this on a regular basis it's not surprising that her dog is aggressive. She needs to work on her own response to strange dogs. Highly strung people should stick to cats, they don't give a bugger how much you shriek and wail, they just blink and look at you as though you are mad.

Erm just maybe she knows full well what damage her dog can do and if i could i would pick my dog up too to prevent it!
But then again i dont bank on the retarded people that allow OFF lead dogs to go up to anything and expect it to be all 100%

JMHO of course :D

I'm sorry, but if you know your dog is aggressive it's irresponsible to take it to a place where other dogs are doing what comes naturally, ie; greeting a stranger, and then blaming the other owner for having their dog there in the first place. That's like knowing that your child is a bully but blaming other parents for sending their children to the same school.

Oh grow up we dont live in an ideal world :D my dogs wont greet a stranger they are called back before they get a chance. Its called responsibility.

They wont harm a stranger but not every stranger wants to be covered in drool or mud. :D and we respect that.

Couldn't agree more mygirl, I would NEVER allow any of mine to walk up to a person, a dog or anything alive without first having checked it was okay. My dogs don't WANT to either, they have me, they have each other, and none of us should have to put up with other people's dogs coming right up to us without being asked.

I totally agree with mygirl.  Both parties were in the wrong here, from what it sounds like - when a strange dog enters the area, all dogs playing should have been recalled and put on leads, whether or not hers was on a lead.  She should also have put her dog on a lead as soon as she realised there were dogs there.  Then you could have established, calmly, that her dog was dog aggressive and she could have gone on her way, and you could have let your dogs off again to play as before.  No dispute, no danger to the dogs, everyone is happy.

>when a strange dog enters the area, all dogs playing should have been recalled and put on leads,

In busy places the dogs would never be off the lead! :rolleyes:

Was just going to say that, poor beggars would be like yo yo's and I'd need eyes in the back of my head as well as much better sight than the 20% I have.

It would also make perfectly wel adjusted dogs into neurotic heaps with their owners constantly calling them back everytime a dog appeared woudl make them think there was something to worry about when they see other dogs rather than them to relax about their own kind.

Wouldn't this cause exactly the problems people want to avoid.

Isn't it true that when dogs lived far less restricted lives and lived and mixed with others of their own kind that inter dog problems were less common.

When my own dogs are at shows they hardly pay any heed to the toehr dogs except for theri particular freinds or a freindly new pup, and the vast majority of the thousands of dogs that are there are pretty mellow about the presence of other canines too.

Maybe city park dogs that are used to mixing with all and sundry are better adjusted than those who rarely meet any dogs or only those they live with or know well.

"It would also make perfectly wel adjusted dogs into neurotic heaps with their owners constantly calling them back everytime a dog appeared woudl make them think there was something to worry about when they see other dogs rather than them to relax about their own kind."

Actually, no - instead the dogs would learn that the cue for returning to their owners was the appearance of another dog, and soon you wouldn't even have to call them - they would take the cue to be another dog appearing and return to you without you even needing to do anything.  Then you can tell them to go and play, if you think they can.

"When my own dogs are at shows they hardly pay any heed to the toehr dogs except for theri particular freinds or a freindly new pup, and the vast majority of the thousands of dogs that are there are pretty mellow about the presence of other canines too."

Well, you can't be round near my breed rings then, because no 2 intact males will be standing together usually, and it's commonplace to hear snarls and the beginnings of fights - and this is when dogs are on lead :rolleyes:

Personally, I wouldn't want to walk my dogs in areas where there are this many dogs that they would become like "yoyos" whenever we see another dog, for lots of reasons - from wanting my dogs to focus on me and consider me to be the centre of the world (something they're not going to learn if they play every day with many different, fun, dogs), and also because I can't predict the temperaments of these dogs.

My dogs are well able to predict the actions of other dogs.:D

Peoples expectations and the choice of the kind of dog they choose to own comes into play here.

There is no way I want a dog to view me as the centre of it's world, I have enough with the emotional demands and responsibilities of my human relationships :D

What I want from my dogs is companionship and co-existence not undying loyalty hero worship or slavish obedience, nor do I want the stress of owning a very dominant light the touch paper kind iof dog.

I make very few rules and demands noneexcept good basic canine manners.

When I take my dogs for off lead exercise I actually want them to meet with and find as many playmates as they can, as that is why I take them out.  They are dogs and I and like minded owners enjoy seeing them being dogs.

I don't want or need a working companion, am not interested in canine sport other than the very mentally demanding (not) task of trotting around a ring a few times.

Now mindful of my breads heritage they get their pleasure from sniffing and ranging ahead using their muscles and noses, and if I can provide this without them getting into any livestock, or fighting then the fact their recalls are not super fast isn't a worry to me.

In Norway it isn't uncommon for a hunting dog to go missing the hunter goes back to camp and waits, or nowadays will have a RAdio collar to help locate it, as the dog has gone into hunt mode and forgotten all about the hunter :D

For this reason I take care to only allow off lead excersise where a dog going out of sight temporarily isn't going to cause a problem (other than causing frustration to me), confident that they are not going to kill cats or fight dogs or leap all over people.

123, have you not found (as I have in the past) that recalling a dog every time you see another it starts to think that the very appearance of another dog is a threat, and becomes defensive? My ideal, when my dogs see another, is for them to ignore it, or sniff and walk on, not come back to me all the time.

However, the difference in breed characters may well play a part in their owners' attitudes. :) You say that in your breed no 2 intact males will be standing together in a class (how do you manage at champ shows with single-sex classes? ), because in my breed, unless you push them into each other's faces, they'll pretty much ignore one another, even when side by side. Perhaps the more laid-back breeds ahve more laid-back owners?

I'd never claim to be anything in the training stakes but this is how I have always managed my dogs.  The least reaction from me as regards other dogs is the way I have instilled the least reaction in them but as you say we have opted for the kind of breed where that pretty much flows naturally.

Nope, I've never found that recalling a dog when you see another means that the dog is a threat.  The dog you are recalling doesn't see the recall as running away from something, but running towards something.  They are very different behaviours.  Dogs aren't good at multi-tasking, as soon as you call the recall, the dog runs to you - that's what it's doing - not running away from anything.  They're not as complex as that:  That would be putting human thought processes onto them.

123, have you not found (as I have in the past) that recalling a dog every time you see another it starts to think that the very appearance of another dog is a threat, and becomes defensive?

If I can butt in, my experience here is that it makes my dogs believe other dogs are boring and not worth bothering with, nothing else. They've no interest in them at all as I always call them close. Whereas allowing them to meet others makes them either a) more likely to want to run up to strange dogs to play (Goldens and Cavaliers) or b) more likely to want to have a go at them (Malinois and Papillon). My dogs will therefore ignore others even if NOT by my immediate side, but in my experience OTHER dogs do then NOT ignore mine. Hence I always call them close.

Not sure if the simple fact that all of mine of course are used to doing long down stays, including out of sight (Papillon as well), close to other dogs means that they are used to ignoring dogs close to them.

I'm with you on this one Brainless - the males in my breed can be quite dog aggressive if they have not been allowed to mix freely from a very young age - they are also extremely quick to pick up on their owners worries so this kind of over protective behaviour (calling them back every time another dog is seen etc) makes things ten times worse !.

We have all become far too reluctant to allow dogs to socialise naturally thus reducing their chances of learning how to react normally around other dogs - and what a nightmare walks seem to have turned into for many folk on here - whatever happened to  mooching along with other doggy minded folk and just letting the dogs get on with it - yes you might have some spats - and maybe a bumptious youngster may get a sharp reprimand from some of the others but that is an invaluable part of their education. We seem to have created a whole generation of dogs that have behavioural problems caused  ( in my opinion) by a complete lack of doggy common sense !

Yvonne

Was beginning to think no-one else liked to relax with their dogs.  My walks are for me to pass the time of day with folk and their dogs and the dogs do the same.  Maybe it is because I am basically lazy, I look on training as something necessary to help the dogs fit into society.  I don't constantly train or recall my kids and treat the dogs in  a similar fashion.

Don't worry, there are plenty of us about. :) Our walks are for recreation and socialisation - both humans and dogs get a chance to meet and mix with their own species! :D

If i see an off lead dog then i take it to be friendly,if i see a dog on lead then i make sure my dogs stay by my side.I will always ask owners of off lead dogs if their dog is okay with others,even this gets mixed responses sometimes :rolleyes: A couple of people have taken offence that i would dare even ask this question,because "obviously" if their dog wasnt ok they wouldnt be off lead!One guy who i'de never laid eyes on before even went so far to say that I didnt trust his judgement as a dog owner,and that if his dog was NOT ok with others then it would be on a lead blah blah blah. Which is fair enough in one way,as i feel this way when mothers with kids panic if my little dogs stray within 50 metres of them and ask if my dogs are ok with kids,to which i have sometimes replied "they'de be on lead if they were kid aggressive"!!

June i completely sympathise with what happened,i'm with you 100% on this one! This woman should not have entered into your dogs space as she knew her dog might attack.IMHO the onus is more on the owners of unfriendly dogs to keep them controlled and away from other dogs then it is on owners who have friendly sociable dogs.

I also agree with Saxon,in that high strung dogs *usually* have high strung owners.I see it all the time,you'll be walking along and you'll see the owner tense up,wrap their dogs lead around their hand ten times,dog looks up at owner and wonders what's wrong and maybe he should be worried because their owner is,and on it goes.

I met a maltese the other week,as soon as the owner saw us she quickly put the dog on lead,even though the dog was happy sniffing around minding it's own business,but as soon as that lead was attached the dog arked up and started barking at my dogs.Owner said she would attack if let off lead,i told her not to worry about it and to let her off,my dogs would put her in her place(who have excellent body language and social skills with grumpy dogs),she declined and walked off.Around 50 metres up the path the dog broke free of the lead,ran back to my dogs let off a bit of a grumble and everything was fine,they sniffed eachother and then went their seperate ways,all the while dogs owner was running back wailing and screaming for her dog to return :rolleyes: I just said "told ya so" ;)

What a very sensible person ktee is. You are the only person who picked up on the 'hysterical owner hysterical dog' thread. I've seen it so many times in my 42 years of breeding and training dogs and horses.
I've seen many good dogs ruined by highly strung owners. Until old age and artheritis overtook me, I was also a riding instructor up to international level. At the lower levels I've seen so many potentially good horses ruined because the rider was 'nervy' or 'anxious', (I don't mean frightened, just the sort of people who live on their nerves and worry about everything). As animals don't have a spoken language, they are very sensitive to body language and very accomplished at picking up 'vibes'. To your dog, you are the all-knowing God. If you are anxious, they immediately pick up on it and become anxious themselves.

I couldn't agree more that anxious owners make anxious dogs.  Vibes speak volumes.  Maybe that's why my GSD is a clown sometimes, because I'm one.  :-D :-D 

Seriously though, I think there is more tolerance with some breeds than others. 

I've had people shrieking when my GSD looked at them, never mind go over to them.

I've lost count of the number of people that ask do they bite.  I doubt the same would be asked if it was a poodle or a lab.  I've had people deliberately change direction when then saw them coming.

I've had one woman give me a rollicking for letting my GSD chase hers.  They were playing chaser and fleer.  And of course the GSD can be very vocal in play and some people can interpret that as aggression.  :rolleyes:

We can control our dogs and exercise responsible ownership but we can't train everyone else, their attitude or their dogs.

Forgot to say, transference and counter-transference of vibes occurs between species.  The one that is the least/most reactive isn't necessarily the creator. 

Anxiety can be transferred from other people in the immediate area, not necessarily the owner or only the owner.  Similarly, an anxious animal can also make anxious people and vice versa. 

my dog is a dozy big lump and loves to play but you just never know so if i see another dog storm always goes on the lead, so if anything was to happen wether he did something out of character , and lets face it we just never know how the other dog will react no matter how often the other owner says there dog if friendly i just think its more responsible to leash your dog if another dog appears.

Picking a dog up is an instinctive reaction when you've got a small breed, but I really think it gets the dogs around more wound up and excited, and also mens that the owner is  more likely to get bitten.

"There's no one right answer. If we choose to have dogs we must accept the chance that they'll get into a scrap. That's life - we have to take the rough with the smooth. 9 times out of 10 it'll be fine - and we all (including the dogs) learn from all the experiences, good and bad."

I don't really agree with this.

If you really, really don't want your dogs to get into a fight or to encounter aggressive dogs, recall them and put them on a lead as soon as you know there's a strange dog close by.  Of course that doesn't guarantee that the strange dog won't run up to yours, on lead, but it at least reduces the chances of something happening.

Dogs might learn from all experiences, good and bad, but what are they learning?  To be afraid of, and aggressive to, dogs of that breed forever?  Is that the kind of thing you want your dogs to learn? 

Tapping away on my calculator here I have estimated 174,596 incidents of meeting strange dogs during my 25 adult years of owning a dog where I have failed to routinely call mine back.  Twice have I had a minor scrappy doo develop from failing to do so, the odds are not stacking up for me :)  Of course I accept it is entirely different if you own the sort of dog looking for it.

It's just common courtesy, Isabel :rolleyes:

Perhaps :), but the 174,594 others didn't look too put out about it especially as I wasn't complaining about their dogs passing by in the manner their owners regarded as appropriate either.

You can walk your dogs 145,566,3456,3455 times, but it only takes the one bad experience for some dogs, to permanently affect their attitude towards other dogs.  Why take the risk?? 

Probabilities :)  I have had 174,594 carefree happy dog encounters.  Why give them up when the odds are so good?  Baring in mind the two scraps we have had over the years did not change my dogs attitude either so the odds of even that making any difference are not as high as you might think when the dog is also experiencing so many casual relaxed encounters.

well, you must have been very lucky.

From the number of people who register with Champdogs and log on, to say that their 5 month old, 7 month old, 9 month old pup has just been attacked and it turns out to have been off lead, I'd say you're in the distinct minority. 

Looking at it that way you might think so but of the thousands that read Champdogs very few who have pups that haven't been attacked are going to post are they? :)

Well, I haven't, and you haven't, and brainless hasn't and, actually, I'd say that the vast number of Champdogs posters haven't had dogs attacked seriously.

Quite, so not in a distinct minority at all :)

Exactly ... and without the need to recall every time we see another dog. :)

So, not quite sure what your argument is here....

That your dog is not more likely to be attacked if you don't leash it??

Sorry, but I don't buy that.

If a dog is on the lead then it can't get away if it is attacked. Also a dog on the lead is often defensively aggressive because it knows it can't get away if it feels stressed.

The point is (and one you raised yourself:

>I'd say that the vast number of Champdogs posters haven't had dogs attacked seriously.)

is that very many of us here don't recall our dogs immediately we see another, and yet we don't have problems with fights ....

If you feel happier recalling your dog every time you see another dog, then that's fine. But it might be sensible to expect that others won't. Luckily we can all do things the way that suits our own individual dogs and circumstances. :)

Don't worry, JG - I always expect that others won't, because the general public are woefully undereducated in this particular area.  I consider it is one of the most important messages to spread about dog etiquette and I tell everyone who comes to my classes.

"If a dog is on the lead then it can't get away if it is attacked. "

How many times does a dog which is attacked successfully outrun the other dog and avoid getting even touched by it?  Almost zero.  Sometimes because the attack doesn't happen until the dogs are already in close proximity.  Sometimes because it is very hard for a dog to outrun another dog (unless we're talking a greyhound pursued by a yorkie).  Sometimes because a dog which is attacked would often rather turn around and either attack back, or use submissive body language to turn off the attack.  To believe that by leaving your dog off lead you are enabling it to get away if attacked is a fallacy.

"Also a dog on the lead is often defensively aggressive because it knows it can't get away if it feels stressed."

Some dogs might be - mine, and a lot of others, are not.  However, the point is that, if your dog is on the lead, it shouldn't be being "stressed" by another dog - because another dog should be nowhere near it, as it should not have been allowed to approach yours which was on lead.

It is only good manners and polite to recall your dog when you see another.  I will always put mine on lead at the sight of another dog.  If a strange dog should approach mine, when they are on lead, even if it is friendly, it will get a foot in its face, and I will contortion myself into bizarre positions to make it clear to the other dog owner that I don't welcome this and am a bit peed off. 

I'd suggest that, every time someone posts here about a dog being attacked, or having been attacked when younger and now having behavioural problems - that you ask yourselves truthfully - if both dogs concerned had been recalled at first opportunity and put on leads, by both owners, would the situation have arisen? 

I don't particularly like playing Russian roulette with every strange dog I pass and with my dog's mental health and psychological development, so I don't particularly care what the odds are, a million to one or not, or what the chances are of a bad situation arising.  As has previously been said on here, sometimes people's dogs attack for the first time and their owner had no idea they could ever be aggressive towards another dog.  Sometimes 2 particular dogs take a dislike to each other for no apparent reason, both previously appearing to be very well socialised and friendly.  If they are greeting each other at 50 yards away, there's precious little you can do, should a fight break out.

I found that recalling my dog, who is intolerant of in your face, bouncy approaches by other dogs and putting her on the lead made her a sitting target for them.  It simply meant that other people's untrained dogs ran up to her barking, which made her fearful.  It only took a few instances of this to make her problem a whole lot worse and I ended up with a dog that was very defensive when on lead.  Fortunately, I've been able to change this behaviour but if I knew then what I know now ...

To this day, she will still look for an approaching dog when I put her on the lead, despite the fact that I do it at lots of other times too.

What I now do when a strange dog approaches is walk her to heel off lead beside me.  I will turn away from a fast approaching strange dog, or walk in a wide circle around them.  If other people's dogs still run up to us, she will give them calming signals.  If they ignore these signals, she'll make them louder.  If nothing else works, she will bark, snarl and fly at the dog.

I hate strange dogs running up to us, 123, you are the ideal person for me to meet out on walks.  However, people with dogs as well trained as yours are in the minority, the reality is that other dogs will run up to yours and I understand why people with sociable dogs don't want to put them on lead.  I also find that the people who take the more relaxed approach (like Yvonne) usually have dogs that know how to approach another dog respectfully and rarely cause a reaction from mine.

Having had a dog who was dog-aggressive on lead (but fine off) I long ago learned that a lead is a double-edged sword that can create as many problems as it prevents. If I think a loose dog needs avoiding, I use a "This way" whistle and go in another direction, and the dogs ( some of whom may be on the other side of the field) will change their general direction. As the fields where we walk are pretty flat, and you can see for about half a mile in any direction, the dogs would never be off-lead otherwise! It works for us, and it seems that the people we meet do the same. :)

Interesting thread.

Phoebe (Great Dane) is a pleasure to walk. She never goes more than ten feet away. Doesn't need a lead and IGNORES ALL DOGS, horses, runners, cyclists - the lot. Should I put her on the lead to stop other dogs coming up just because she ignores them? If they push it she will warn them off - does that make her aggressive and means she should be recalled whenever there is another dog around? No.

>If a strange dog should approach mine, when they are on lead, even if it is friendly, it will get a foot in its face

Shame on you

Not really - my dogs are my priority, and if I have to put my foot out and fend them off with my leg (assuming they are not trying to bite and are friendly pests rather than aggressive), then I'll do that.

Er, did you think I meant that I would kick them?  Because that's not what I said, is it...?