Hi
My bitch gave birth to 6 lovely pups on friday evening....she's been really well and the pups look to be thriving.
We also have a cocker spaniel dog ....both dogs normally have living quarters outside and we brought cassie in for the past few weeks to be sure she whelped indoors, she adjusted beautifully.  Jasper is being kept outdoors as usual....and away from mum and babies.

Today Jasper started with D&V....i wondered initially was this his anxiety.  Usually both very strong dogs, very rarely becoming sick.  Jasper seems his usual self now, if not a bit put out at the activity going on indoors....although he had D&V he seems lively enough.

My worse fear was cassie picking up some bug from him.....tonight she diarrhoead!..but no vomit.....we have done everything humanely possible to clean up after jasper (all mess was outside in a fenced & flagged area which is easily cleaned and disinfected) we used a seperate entrance and left wellies at the door and changed jeans and washed carefully as not to cross contaminate areas.  Cassie has been using a seperate exit to garden to toilet since she had pups.
I have kept all indoor floors cleaned with the usual domestic disinfectant I use.

Have they both got a bug?....or is it normal for a bitch to suffer diarrhoea after whelping?  I am so worried she will pass something to pups.  We called the vet before she diarrhoead and they said if she starts being sick and diarrhoeaing to bring her in!  No mention of the pups.

I cleaned her hind quarters with a solution of detol and warm water and dried her before she jumped back into her bed with her pups......is there anything else I can do?  She's just lain down with pups very quietly since, nothing else has happened as yet...pups seem happy enough, big and strong and cassie is still drinking.

should i be concerned or is this normal and just coincidence that the other dog has been a little unwell?
I really appreciate help..I do have the 'Book of the Bitch' here and have read it carefully (excellent book) but cannot see anything about the bitch having diarrhoea except if she is given milk.  I have also taken the books advice on allowing her a short walk outdoors which she's jumped at the chance....but how clean is the footpath outside?...I can't remove her shoes before she jumps back into bed!
Thanks in advance

Admin: edited

I have never had a bitch with D & V while with pups so I wouldn't consider it normal.  I also don't walk a nursing bitch in public places until pups have gone and mine is protected, although others do.

I wouldn't consider normal domestic disinfectant and detol adequate to protect my pups (or myself under normal circumstances let alone puppies :).  I keep a mat soaked in parvocide (kills bacteria, viruses etc) for everyone to walk through and use it to spray them with if I think that they might be carrying anything that I don't want!

Did the bitch eat all the afterbirths? If so, and the diarrhoea is black in colour, it's likely to be the effects of this. Have you taken her temperature?

Hi
She did eat all the afterbirth, there really was nothing left but each pup....but her diarrhoea was not black in colour and there was only a small amount, nothing since.

With response to previous reply, my bitch did not vomit, only diarrhoea up to now.

I have been unsure about what disinfectant to use to be honest, I know some are very strong for use indoors, in particular near to new puppies, and detol is used in midwifery...so figured this would be a safe bet.  We cleaned outside and then rinsed with jeyes fluid to sterilise the area but cassie hasn't been into that enclosed area of the garden since she whelped.
I will stop the walks whilst she is nursing.

I am ever learning and very appreciative of advice.
many thanks

Does Detol and Jeyes Fluid deal with viruses?

As JG asked, what's your bitch's temperature?

At the very least you should have supplies of Parvocide for killing off bacteria and viruses potentially carried in by anyone from the great outdoors (not confined to dog owners/walkers) and Milton for cleaning up and disinfecting household prep surfaces etc.

I'm with JG and Val - check her temperature and if you have further concerns, were it me, I'd get the vet to come out.

regards, Teri

I'm assuming your bitch is up to date with her injections? If so, then while she's nursing the puppies will be receiving the same immunity that she has, and so keeping her 'confined to barracks' is likely to stress her out and can cause problems. If she wants to go out for exercise I personally would take her. Exercise is needed to keep her fit and healthy, and a stressed, frustrated, stir-crazy bitch won't be a good mother.

After all, how many human mothers stay at home and never mix with others while they're breast-feeding?

Also human infants are exposed to visitors and the outside world that if full of humans with the potential to pass on all manner of germs, never heard of any parent being told to keep the baby at home until the vaccination courses are completed, which used to take nearly a year, but is now completed by about 4 months.

Many of these babies don't even have the advantage of antibodies received from breast milk as the mothers choose not to.

never heard of any parent being told to keep the baby at home until the vaccination courses are completed,

That's exactly what Vets tell puppy owners to do! :)

Actually veterinary advice is not to take them where unvaccinated dogs are likely to have been. Your own garden, own other pets, and those of friends which you know are vaccinated are fine to mix with. :) Obviously a new mother wouldn't knowingly take her new baby to visit a person with an infectious or contagious disease! :)

Here owners are told not to take unvaccinated pups out at all, where any other dogs have been.  Wouldn't be my advice, but that's the 2 practices in this town. :(

It's not the vaccinated for diseases that would concern me JG.  As you rightly say, if the dam is covered she should pass her immunity on to the pups.  It's more the common or garden bugs and beasties around that healthy dogs take in their stride but the very young or very old find more difficult to cope with. :)
That's why I use a disinfectant that protects against bacteria and viruses.  By taking such precautions I've had no poorly pups (apart from those born with defects :() or bitches in over 20 years.

Something where we'll have to agree to differ! ;) :) My nursing bitches have been taken for walks with our other dogs (who aren't isolated from the pups either) from when they've wanted to go. I believe a happy, relaxed bitch makes a better mother than a stressed, bored one (and trust me, my bitches would be bouncing off the walls if they weren't allowed out for weeks ). I've followed this regime since my first litter in 1976, and like you, I've never lost one at all (I've been lucky and never had one born with defects). :)

I suppose it also depends whether taking the bitch out means into the street where the world and his wife walk their dogs (vaccinated or not) and surely a greater risk than along a country lane that rarely sees another dog.  I'd rather not risk at all where my pups are concerned.

Also my dogs really don't care whether they go out or not!  Couch potatoes if they are given the chance. ;)

Glad that your lot have been OK - and mine too! :D

I would never ever take my dogs out other than in the garden whilst still having pups around.  Never have done and never will do.

It's never done my active working dogs any harm!

Though I have to admit that I don't over clean the house.  The only person I know who got parvo and ended up with 5 pups on a drip and 1 dying was a person that sprayed and cleaned every area of the house and any people who stepped foot near the house.  Sometimes I feel that you can over cleanse a house causing less immunity.  I may be wrong and these are my feelings only of course :d

If you're going to use any type of disinfectant, at least make sure it is effective against dog diseases - have a look here:

http://www.safe4disinfectant.com/safe4disinfectant/

This is very safe, even if puppies accidentally ingest some of it, and it is effective against parvovirus and other dog diseases.

Thanks for all the advice given on this thread....Cassie and pups are all doing very well.
I have continued to keep Cassie from her walks for the time being, simply because I'm too worried she will bring something back into the pups. Her usual place to walk is on close by open farmland but this is where many owners walk their dogs too and as I dont know these dogs are up-to-date with vaccinations surely this poses a risk.

I agree that the pups need protection from the most harmful viri and bacteria but surely they do need to build up their own immunity....it's a worry, and I guess there's a fine line between going over the top and over sterilising, cleaning etc..so the pups wouldn't build up a gradual resistance to general bugs and germs...but my instinct tells me if I can minimise the possibility of her trudging through another dogs mess then I should avoid it....she really doesn't seem bothered......she's more stressed with the recent heat wave than by being kept at home.  The heat seems to be driving her nuts..she has taken to dig a huge hole under one of my bushes and she sits inside it!

Another thing that I'd like to ask advice on....the puppies need socialising, and to be handled and see and hear different people, which makes good sense...but this means having people coming in and touching, picking up, playing with the puppies.......I can't hose down everyone who comes into my home and  the pups are not  suppose to go outside until the vaccinations are complete which wont be for weeks and they are settled into their new homes....So I wouldn't dream of taking the pups out into the street for example but can't see what the difference is between the pups going outside and people coming in from outside.....they still can be carrying some of the nastier germs that could potentially harm the pups.  Is it enough to ask visitors to remove their shoes? 

I lost my first puppy some years ago to parvo, we only had her for one night before she started to D&V with blood and was admitted to the vets, put on drips etc.. to finally be lost 4 days later...she came from the breeder already incubating the parvo virus!

Thanks again for advice, and I will order some of the disinfectant and hand gel in the above link.

The pups can go in your garden (as long as its secure and not frequented by unvaccinated dogs) and you can carry them in public places for socialisation before their injections. The meeting different ages, sizes, shapes and colours of people and seeing traffic and crowds etc from a safe vantage point (familiar arms) is vital. :)

When you talk about socialising in the home, this does not mean getting loads of people to come in and fuss the pups, I would never invite people in to handle and look at the pups, infact I am quite the opposite and keep people away or you would have half the village and all my sons friends traipsing through the house, socialising a pup under 8 weeks at a breeders home should entail obviously being handled and fussed by yourself, your own children and immediate family members, all household noises, washing machines, hoovers etc. other household pets and running and playing in the garden this is quite enough socialising, a pup needs to get used to all household noises and have safe hands touching and playing with them.  I would never allow a pup to socialise outside the home without vacinations and never invite 'lookers' into the home, my pups are too precious to risk.

I also don't walk my bitch until the pups are at least 6 weeks, (I'm a worrier) and she usually loves 2 hours exercise a day! But it doesn't bother her, I play ball with her in the garden for a good half hour 3 times a day which gives her plenty of exercise she is always happy and enjoys playing with the pups too. I also don't allow my families dogs over (who are all fully vaccinated) whilst I have pups under 8 weeks, maybe I am overprotective as others of you have had no negative happenings in walking your bitches and meeting other dogs etc, but it makes me feel happy doing things this way, knowing me if I relaxed things I would be the unlucky one!

Every breeder will do things their way, there is no right or wrong, whatever fits in with each person, I'm an over protective mother, so I'm bound to be an overprotective breeder. :-D

I invite people in to look at and play with the pups from about 5 weeks of age, when they're getting a bit more independent and starting to develop characters. This is when the people on my waiting list come to see them, and also, because I don't have small children of my own any more, the children of friends and neighbours, so that the pups have experience of the high-pitched voices of children. Of course they're well supervised so that the children don't inadvertently hurt a pup!