Thread continued from here

We have a Money Making Breeder in Guernsey who bought in a Chocolate Lab bitch a few months back and is now already selling off the pups at £700 each !!! Not the best bred puppies in the world either, with some from previous letters needing hip replacements already and they are only 2 years old !!!

I have 2 Goldies that come to me for there 6 weekly bath etc they are 7 months old and i have to put them in the cradle for there back legs as they both have HD , they are the happiest pups ever , but it is so sad to think that they will never run and play like goldies should , but there owner is the sweetest person and they all the vet treatment that money can buy, but i know that it is not the point, they should not have been bred in the first place, puppy farm rescues.

Sam

Dessie and Sam,

:-((((

Pam

Terrible isn't it Pam :( :(

But what can you do really apart from educate people.

Thankfully I have managed to with a couple of people, and they have now got some wonderful puppies from a lady in Jersey.

Dessie

Hi Sam

Isn't it terrible ....

This woman over here bred 24 puppies the other year. Some had to be taken in by the local Shelter as she had saturated the market with Black Lab Puppies, so now she has decided to breed Chocolate ones now as she can get more money for them :( It is so frustrating as there isn't anything we can do ie Guernsey Dog Club, only not register if she has a litter from the same bitch within 12 months.

I'm hoping to do a Discover Dogs type thing here in Guernsey which will enable the general public to come and look at all the different breeds that are on the Island and talk to reputable people about acquiring puppies etc, hopefully this line of attack will persuade people not to buy from her and to do some research before buying a puppy :(

The unfortunate thing is it is a captive market over here and when people see cute little puppies advertised in the local paper which are going to be ready in a couple of weeks they all jump in a buy them even if they are paying over the top !!!

Dessie

Chow Chows cost around £650 onwards.I think stud fees are about £300.I saw one advertised in Loot the other week.Cream and sable Chow very rare £1000.
Ive never seen one that colour before.LOL
Someone will be daft enough to buy it.
I bought my first chow not knowing anything about Chows.I wanted a bitch.The breeder put the dog in my arms.I fell for him.
I Never dreamed of showing .Went to an open show he got second.Boy the bug had bitten.
That first blue rosette and getting his name in the paper.I was on cloud nine.
Shirley

I think that the breeder should be leagally responsible for homing/rescue. These people will happily keep churning out the pups if someone else deals with the come back!

Brainless,
That sounds like a good idea. Toby's breeder has it written in the sales contract that if at any time the purchaser wants the dog rehomed they must return it to the breeder. I know some breeders to that and it maybe would be a step in the right direction if it was a legal requirement.
Dot

Hi Dot
I've been toying with the idea of some such clause in a puppy purchase contract but I'm not sure it would stand up legally if the purchaser didn't return the dog to me.
I've copied a contract that my friend had when she *adopted* a dog from a sanctuary to see if I can adapt it to suit for my litter.
Nicky

Unfortunately puppy purchase contracts are not normally legally binding even when signed by both sides. I do insist that puppies come back to me, but actually would not be able to enforce it if the purchaser did not do so.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

Hi Joan, thats a shame cos I was thinking if I got alegal document drawn up it would ensure my pups would always come back to me. Are you sure?
Christine2

Someone with more legal knowledge than I have might be able to clarify this but I suspect it is because the law sees animals as goods and chattels and therefore you buy them outright. If you go to Comet and buy a TV the TV becomes yours unconditionally (given you have paid the full price). Comet can't tell you to give it back if you decide you no longer want it in your house and pass it on to a friend. Unfortunatley the law sees animals in the same light and would say that the purchaser has paid the going price for the animal so becomes the outright owner and can then decide what they wish to do with it.

I think it is always worth putting in a clause about the dog being returned to you and a decent purchaser would abide by it but I don't think it is enforceable. I always add verbally that if they really can't keep the dog through illness or something like that and they find a suitable home themselves (ie, giving it to a member of the family where the dog already knows the people and animals) I will be quite happy with that, but I definitely want to know.

Incidentally rescue organisations do not (normally) sell their dogs, they allow you to rehome them but they still legally belong to the rescue organisation.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth.

Yes it is true Christine, in the eyes of the law a puppy is no different to a fridge or a car once the purchase is complete they belong to the new owner, lock, stock and barrell. I have a puppy return bit in my contract really to encourage the new owner to turn to me first in the event of a new home needed, but mindfull that they are not obliged to at all and may well be aware that they could get money for it elsewhere I also offer them all the profits from a sale to a new home. This has only happened to me once as careful vetting helps too of course.

Yes you are both right, just checked with someone I know whos a lawyer. I think its disgusting!!!! Treated the same as an object & once sold thats it.
Christine2

I didn't know it couldn't be legally enforced but I do remember Toby's breeder saying she was so thankful that the purchaser had contacted her and although she wanted to say plenty when she saw the state of Toby she was careful because she wanted to be sure he'd leave him. The purchaser had been vetted & had home visit etc. before getting the pup but I think it was like a lot of cases where personal circumstances change and it gets taken out on the poor dog. I'm such a softy I just can't understand people that do that to animals and/or children.
Anyway I'm just glad I've got him now and I'd love another!
Dot

THings get a bit complicated in the law so ownership of anything must be done like this as it is the biggest arguement ever " WHO OWNS WHAT". So the Law must be as clear as possible.

You know the saying possession is 9/10 of the law , lot of rubbish..honestly.

This is why we have the breeding contracts and lent bitches. not the best soultion at all but people trying things.

It is sad really.

The reason we do write these things into puppy contracts is that the hope people do not know the law and will think it is a legally binding contract. SO if it saves one or 2 puppies it is better than non. If you get my dirft.

People are finding out more and more so since EU legislation has been so widely published.

Pam

I do it anyway Nicky, in the hope of concentrating minds even though I know it isn't legally binding.

PS - would you like a copy of my sales agrement? As deerhounds and IWs are so similar it might be of some use in writing your own.

The prices on Boston Terriers $1000. and up for pet. $1500. to $2500. for breeding rights. You will find the odd one at $500 to $900 depending who you call, and where it is. French bulldog $1500 for pet, and up with breeding rights. English bulldog $2000 for pet and up with breeding rights. Dogue de Bordeaux $1500. and up (same thing). This is what I have been told when I called some breeder's. I was told reason for this is because they usually need c-sections and some don't breed on their own, and are a hard breed to breed. I have had some say that price plus GST. I have had some breeder's tell me they have one that is good for show, but I have never heard of being able to tell it is show quality at 8 to 9 weeks. Price's really do very depending where they are and on the person, and what the dog/bitch has won. My friend was checking out the price on a Pressa Canario and she was told $3000. and up. Must be because they are a rare breed and where the dog was coming from.
ttfn :)

I hope that no one who has such a breed will take offense, but I do wonder about the morality of blithely breeding in the knowledge that many if not most bitches will require a CS. Surely exaggeration to that point is every bit as much a 'genetic' problem as is HD?

Thanx Sharon, I'd love one! :D
As I said I've got a copy of Ruee's *adoption* cert from a rescue sanctuary but actually selling a dog is different so I'm a bit stuck for wording.
Can you e it to me?
Nicky

Sent Nicky :)

Received, Thanx :D

Dot,

I put that into my contracts but it is a sad fact that some people don't find this contract binding, I always look in the breed supplement to find out whether any of my pups have changed hands and have luckily not come across it yet but then again- they may not have given the KC papers with the dogs, we can never really tell.

Donna

I'd like that too Barbara, especially if it meant the owner was legally required to offer the breeder first option to have the pup back.

I still do rescue and rehomeing but have not bred pups for 20 years. I think it is the breeder’s responsibility to produce good quality healthy pups but once that pup is sold the responsibility is passed to the owner. Yes if there is a genetic problem the fault is with the breeder but I do not think expecting a breeder to buy a dog back after it has been wrecked by poor diet or training (or lack of) is fair. I always tell new owner’s that if there is any problem I want the dog back but I don’t ask money (except for vaccinations) for the dogs.
I can’t see any point in paying big money for pedigree pups as the big rescues are full of them around here. My wife’s show German Shepherd cost me £50.00p, Border Collies are free and a working Bedlington cross Greyhound was £25.00p. Chris.

Ok not trying to offend anyone here but... IMHO. Looking at the prices of these pups, I must say it seems someone is making a he!! of a lot of money out there!!! I mean really 1000Pounds and up for a puppy??! Obviously the saying that you can't and don't make money raising dogs isn't exactly true. I guess ':rolleyes:select:rolleyes:' breeders can. I realize that some of these pups parents may have proven themselves in show... but that does not mean the offspring will be that way! I am not saying it is wrong what people are doing... just wondering why all say that you cant and wont make any money? I guess all you have to do is head off to a show and win a few times then you can charge ANY price you feel like for you puppies. So tell me why everyone gets all up in arms about new people breeding? It would appear that they don't want more breeders otherwise there will be more competition and prices will have to be lowered. I don't know... can anyone explain this to me, why all the outrage at new breeders? I highly doubtit would cost 800Pounds to raise each puppy... not in normal cercumstances!!! So why such high prices??? UM.... maybe to make a little dosh?!!? Looks that way to me! So why is it only alright for a few people to make ALOT of money breeding dogs, as opposed to more people making a little money? And why to those people get all up in arms when someone who is 'out of there circle' is able to make some money raising high quality dogs?

I in no way condone the practice of puppy farming!!! So please don't read into my post that I do!!! I do not approve of puppy farms or mills in any way!!!!!

People that breed as part of their hobby of showing dogs are very out of pocket, simply as their expenses are high. It costs a lot of money to show and keep a team, or line of show dogs. Not only is there the cost of showing, but the cost of keeping the dogs no longer being shown or bred from.

The occasional litter, apart from providing valuable information (and future new show/working dogs for the breeder) of the success or otherwise of their endeavours to produce good stock, at best help defray some of the costs of doing so.

Non doggy friends never cease to be amazed that we doggy folk travel miles, at great expense in time, and money for a piece of cardboard, telling us the judge thought we were better or worse then the opposition, if we were lucky enough to get placed at all!

I do think that there should me more laws about breeding and strict penilities , bring back dog licence!! and check up on people , i know that i would love to knock on doors and check peoples licencies if they did not have one i would throw the book at them , harsh i know but that is one job i would love to do!!
I know that the dog licence was expensive but does anyone else think that it ould be a good idea to bring it back?
and have people like me checking up?

Sam

hi,
instead of a licence, microchip all dogs bred, not trying to push microchipping as i do it myself,breeders can have all there details included if the dog is resold, lost or gone into rescue, they then can have the opportunity to take back there stock, hope most would but then i am only dreaming, if i decide to breed all my stock will be microchipped with my details. also think it would be a thing for the future in showing like ch shows,
you get your pass and cq in and out with microchips you would just scan and cq say last 3 or 4 digids of bar code,microchipping is the only true way of identifying it is your dog. who's to say they are going home with the right dog? i thought when the licenced thing stopped it was 37 and a half pence.regards tina

Tattooing is also a good choice. all my pups are done before they leave, and I encourage the owners to get them chipped also.

Hi Sam

We actually have a Dog Licence/Tax scheme in Guernsey. It is £5 per dog which isn't a lot really !!! So it doesn't really stop people making money out of breeding !!

No there are plenty enough rules to control breeding and the standards at commercial kennels, they just aren't implemented! If the existing rules were used then some of the problems would be reduced. Breeders could be traced and the conditions stock kept in checked.

Here here Brainless..

Pam

Yes plenty rules that the unscrupulous can already find loopholes in without making it more difficult for the genuine breeder who does everything right:( Gillian

If only the Kennel Club would set proper standards, life would be so much easier for the good breeders. If all breeding stock had to pass stringent hereditary tests, individually worked out by each parent breed club. i.e. with the breeds that suffer from HD, if puppies are to be KC reg then both parents should have a total hip score of less than ...... depending on the breed. Each breed club could list the testable conditions that thier breeds suffer from, and each breeding dog or bitch would have to pass for each condition. This could be done for all the "testable" hereditary diseases and those with stock that do not come up to scratch simply would not be able to register puppies with the KC. Both parents should also have passed a health test at the vets, say within 6 months of being mated that they are in good general health, with eye and heart examination clear, being within the perimeters of ideal weight for the breed and of a temperament sufficiently good for the vet to carry out this examination without any show of aggression. All breeding stock would have to be either micro-chipped or tattood and the numbers appearing on thier own KC reg so there is as little chance as possible of swapping dogs. I would happily pay £20 registration fee per puppy to compensate for the KC's fall in registration revenue and the transfer to the new owner fee could be raised too, after all to have a KC reg puppy under these circumstances would be even more reliable/desirable and when they are paying several hundred pounds for a puppy another £20 is neither here nor there really.

In theory great, in practice???? Take a look at the new regs. brought in for breeders in Holland, not just health tested but have to meet certain standards/had show success, and limit number of times dog can be used at Stud. And the sticking point to all this is - the puppy farmers would just get round the regs, by not registering at all, or using something like "Dog Lovers". The only way it could realy work was if it was government legislated, not KC, and as they cant implement the existing laws in a lot of the puppy farms I dont see that even more rules would improve the situation. The problem is partly that whilst the Dog press and web sites like this give puppy buyers excellent advise on what to look for in a reputable breeder, the vast majority of people would never dream of looking at a doggy site or magazine. And even the ones that do crumble and lose all the good intentions when presented with an 'adorable' puppy. I am about to try to convince my breed club to insert some ads. in the 'freeby ad papers' advising/warning people what to look for when buying an American cocker - I dont hold out a lot of hope, as I havent even convinced the committee that we need a Web page yet!

I would love to be able to show people that my kennels meets all sort of standrds of excellence - there is not way to do this. I am now (deliberately) no longer a licencsed breeder, I breed less than 4 litters a year anyway, but was still intending to continue with my licence. My council appointed a new Enviromental health officer dealing with boarding/breeding licences - first he told me there was no such thing as a breeders licence (!!!) when I pointed out that he had at least 2 in the borough (me being 1) he came out to do an "inspection", told me he cant stand dogs, couldnt find any details of the regulations (I had to send to the Pet Care Trust to get a copy for him to read!). Then he said he couldnt let me have a licence as I didnt have enough car parking!!! As I have a parking area between my 2 kennel runs that would accomodate 12 - 15 cars I was amazed. How many people did he think I was going to have to see pups. I thought carefully, and decided not to go ahead with renewing.

He then visited the other kennel in the area (breeding Dachshunds) and told them that all the beds in the kennels with the bitches and pups in had to be raised 4" from the floor. When it was pointed out that the pups legs were only about 2" long and they would end up going under not into the beds he suggested they put ramps up to the beds!

As you can see, this is one of my personal hobby horses - if the legislators agents dont now the regs, hate dogs, and have no common sense do we really want to give them more control?
Gwen

Oh how true Gwen. In my local authority the dog warden service is under pest Control. When you ring the number the lady answers "Pest control". When I light heartedly said, oh I want the dog warden, and dogs aren't pests, only some of their owners. The lady who must have had a sense of humour by-pass, said "dogs most certainly are pests".

We don't want silly rules, that the irresponsible will flought, and will make the reputable persons life difficult. I have even heard of some councils insisting that even one puppy sold was commercial and should have a license, and requiring change of use of the home!!

There might be plenty of rules in the UK but Guernsey is totally different. We don't have any hard fast rules with regards to Breeding only that the bitch cannot whelp two litters within 12 months. We don't have the RSPCA over here just a Guernsey equivalent which doesn't have the kick of the RSPCA unfortunately.

Dessie

our rottie was £500 and the owner will and does take them back at whatever age and is always available for advice. She even took a pup back as the owners decided it was too much hassle to exercise it.

On the topic of price of pups,we have just bought a doque de bordeaux pup she was £1500 which seems astronomical. Tibetan Mastiff bought 12 years ago £800, 2 I bought last year £500 and £600, seems to be the only thing to come down in price in the last decade. In 1980 I bought a Lhasa Apso, he cost £250 in those days it was a lot of egg and chips to live on to save the money the money, but since when have dog people been rashonal Lynn T2

Lynn, your Dogue is not only rare it is also fashonable, hence the price. When you bought the TT the same could be said for that. If you look at the prices of most puppies it is the rare, fashonable, or difficult to welp or rear that fetch the higher prices. At the moment it is mastive type dogs and Bulldogs along with Choc labs and some of the fancy crosses who are getting the high prices. There is some reason for the mastives & Bulldogs as they can be difficult to welp and rear but the Choc labs & crosses the charges should be for the Labs the same what ever the colour and the crosses, well what does one pay for a cross £50 to £100 I would have thought fair price to pay for something that in the past would have been given away, quess it is only the silly names that people pay for. Jackie

Well my huskies were £600 each, although some breeders who I rang were charging more if it was white, had blue eyes, was a bitch, had 4 legs.......etc

White is no doubt the in colour at the moment. JH

Jackie, which comes first, the high price or the fashion? I get the feeling that as with other items, dog breeds tend to become fashionable as much because the price is very high as the reverse. :(

Good point Sharon,
It's as if people are becoming so materialistic that the more expensive the better :(
Dot

May be correct Sharron, but I have never had anyone tell me how much their dog cost or asked me about mine. But I do move in the show dog circle and don't know may people who have pet dogs as I don't walk in the local park. I would hope dogs are not used as a status symbol like a car or new coat, but as people use their talented kids in that way I don't supose they would stop at dogs. Do you change dogs to suit the new house!!!!!!!!!
Ja:)kie

Hi Jackie, I don't walk the dogs in the park either but do know that Irish Wolfhounds became something of a status symbol when puppy prices where at their highest. That may of course have been something to do with the sheer size and elegance of the breed, and the fashion for all things Irish, courtesy of Bord Failte's clever (and imo plastic & shrink wrapped :) ) packaging. But I have occassionally heard people telling each other how much they paid for their dogs in the vets' waiting room, and while the 'headline' is usually a complaint, I get the impression of a boastful and competitive sub-title. I know I'm an old cynic, but there is a parallel with, say, choosing - and even insisting on - private surgery in an area where there is no waiting list and an all consultant surgical staff. Such people will even got to a surgeon in another town or city if the local surgeon is too 'cheap' regardless of the comparitive skill, and I've heard them boasting about how much their operation cost (even if it went horrendously wrong!) too often to believe that the motive is anything other then a form of social competition.

Hi Jackie
I hope you don't think I started this thread to boast, brag, complain, etc. I didn't I'm just really nosey and I just wondered what different breeds cost. :)
Nicky

Holly cost me £480, which is about right for a well bred KC registered cocker spaniel.

Fiona
x x x

No of course not Nicky. I don't think, :D full stop. Ja:)kie