Using Annies term of " The Terrorist" which sums up my 4 month old Golden pup!
He can do so well one minute.....returning with a retrieve, not jumping up at me, coming when called. Then he seems to get bored quickly with that and runs riot. He drops whatever he has fetched and wanders off or runs past me with it.....I do not chase him...........or he decides it is time to bite me again so he jumps up and grabs my clothes and usually tears them. I cannot ignore him when he has a mouthful of clothes and is playing tug of war whilst I stand still. But if I try to remove the clothing from his mouth he shows his teeth and goes for my hand instead. If he does stop because I have ignored him he sits down and barks and barks which I also ignore.  If I try to walk away then he jumps up at me. I put my hand out to tell him to stay down and he goes for my hand. When he stops I praise him but as soon as I talk to him he starts again. When he leaves my clothes I will often walk sharply away and go to another room for a while til he settles. Sometimes he just starts again even if I have left him for half an hour.

What am I to do?

hi lyndob :)

I don't know the other thread you're referring to re Annie's "terrorist" analogy :D so may be reading your post wrongly.

Are you trying to train / do obedience with your puppy during these shennanigans?  If so, perhaps he's just finding it all too boring and predictable - perhaps you're doing too much for too long and too often ......   Pups need to enjoy what they're doing in order to retain an interest in it and while training can and obviously should be fun it's not always viewed the same way by the trainee as it is by the trainer ;)   Personally I do little to no specific training with pups of this age apart from house training and recall - anything else is just dealt with on an "as and when" basis.

If this is just regular messing around then rather than persevere with the ignore tactic - which by your description is clearly not working - I'd move onto a sharply toned, firm "ah, ah!" then reward the release of your clothes etc by replacing with a distraction such as a tuggy-toy :)   Try and play games with him to encourage preferred behaviour rather than follow basic rules to train behaviours.  He sounds like he may be a very smart puppy that needs mental stimulation more than physical so you may have to become very ingenious and adventurous however you obviously cannot continue to allow him to become over excited and using his mouth inappropriately.

Try the firm tone, instant reward for when he releases and giving him an alternative to channel his energy - but be consistent and stick with it for at least a week before evaluating if you're making progress.  Also ensure that any other household members follow the same routine - more often than not it is mixed signals that are the cause of blips in training :)

HTH, regards Teri :)  

Hi Teri

Thanks for the reply. Sorry I have not responded very quickly but I have noted your comments.
I have been doing what you said even before I read your message but I have persisted more firmly this week.
It is difficult to say if it is working as Pepper seems to respond one time and then not the next. He is unpredictable.
It is not always during training sessions which I do try to keep short as I know he bores easily. On one occassion I was coming back from a walk and after I had put his lead on he got the lead around his leg so I bent down to untagle him. He tried to get hold of my hand so I moved away but as I stood up he grabbed the sleeve of my jacket. As I was on the way up it took me by suprise and the jacket tore because he was hanging on. I held him away with his lead at arms length as he started jumping and jumping and I could not get him to sit. I could not get a treat out as I was trying to keep him off me.
Last night I tried to introduce the toy when he tried to bite me and he chewed on it for a while on and off whilst we played. He then got fed up of the toy and decided I was more fun so grabbed at my arm. I tried to give him another toy but he preferred me so I withdrew from play. I sat on the sofa but he kept jumping up....I stand up each time. Does get wearing when you are trying to watch T.V!!! Eventually he settled down for a while then found something else to chew. If it gets too much I put him out of the room. So he is getting better and I do not expect miracles. It would just be nice to know my clothes will not get torn to shreds some time.

Lyn

Hi Lyn

I'm glad you're making progress - sometimes feels like Rome was built quicker than good manners instilled in a pup :D

Have you used a sharp vocal reprimand for this thuggy behaviour?  The "ignore" method doesn't appear to be working as well with your pup as it does with some - and of course just like kids they are all different.

If you decide time out is needed, it is better for you to leave the pup than physically put him out of the room - which action in itself is a reward of attention in his eyes.

Also, try reading and printing off this article http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop.htm as it may give you the added burst of patience / energy required to cope with this particular phase.   I know it's not always easy to keep motivated when progress seems slow or haphazard but you're doing great so far and will be surprised at how quickly things turn around when the message eventually kicks in :)

HTH, and good luck

Teri

I can so relate to this lot....and our pup is now 8months. However he does have more better days now than ever whicjh I take as encouraging!I hope I am not mistaken but I guess its time and patience?
Karen

LOL - mini monsters aren't that rare :D  Been there, had 'em, still got one in fact (secretly enjoy them :P )

this stage can seem endless, lyn but it is normal, especially for a confident pup. indeed, 4 months often seems to be precisely the stage when they've got their feet comfortably under the table, so to speak, and are quite happy to treat you as another chewable diversion. i'd second what teri says about not being too bothered about too much formal training since it's extremely difficult to get through when pups are at their daftest. however, do concentrate on the bite inhibition tips because it is essential to get this sorted. again, don't expect overnight success but do be consistent and persistent!

of hands, pups almost always see them as a wonderful target so if you are teaching manners, consider keeping your arms folded while delivering a firm verbal reprimand - a sharp "aaa aaah" used to work with my exceedingly confident terrorist at this age.

edited to say just seen poloaussie's and teri's replies and yes, things do improve - at 11 months old nips isn't the same dog as the one he was in the days when i thought i'd have to spend the rest of my life standing on a table to get dressed! - and i also, secretly like a pup with a well developed sense of wickedness!

I have a 3 month old golden too and he is forever swinging on my skirts, biting my legs or hands, I've tried the ignore method, shutting him in another room - none work.  He's just opened the dog gate and ran upstairs, now I know he is bright, but it was my fault I don't think I locked it properly, and he noticed!

I'm hoping it's a phase that he will grow out of.  Like you lyndob I want to wear some clothes that won't be torn and I want my arms and hands back minus the scratches and bruises!

Heres hoping....................

Maria

:D ..don't hold your breath Maria - Stan had a bloodied arm today playing ball, and my eyes almost popped when she snuck under the table and sunk her teeth into my toes for a laugh! We limp while she skips when we take her for walks !

Yes Maria, I have done that too. Even though they are a bit too bright for their own good I think we must take a good proportion of the blame!!!!! I shut the gate but did not put the catch down and Pep. squeezed through. He was so pleased to come and jump at me in bed.

I take comfort(?) from the fact that others are going through the "pain" of puppy nips. I have to say that since writing about it things have settled a bit more. Apart from a couple of snags and one tear he seems to be now losing those sharp puppy teeth which I think have been the main culprits. I try to hold any hanging clothing out of reach if he starts to get excited around me. He still wants to chew me but again not as much. A sharp "OFF" like a bark is beginning to take him aback. If he still doesnt stop I go away from him telling him his behaviour is not acceptable in a grumbling voice and with a dirty look. Seems to make him stop and think for a nanosecond.
I am trying to establish a higher position in his hierarchy too so I am working at not giving him immediate attention in the morning or when I come home. I ignore him at first when he comes up for a fuss. It is really hard as I love him to bits and he wiggles up to me so cutely it is hard to resist. My partner also makes sure that he comes and gives me a kiss and cuddle ,in front of the dog, when he gets in to establish that I am next in line to him the "Alpha" male...well we let HIM think the is the Alpha male in front of the dog!!??

Hi Lynn,

I'm glad you're noticing small but positive changes in your tiny toerag but please don't go down the route of assuming your dog at whatever age in life has the slightest inclination towards world domination :rolleyes: 

You are human, your pup is canine, why on earth would you or your OH assume that either of you are "alpha" to the puppy?   You're his source of food, shelter, fun and comfort so he loves and adores you and wants to be around you all the time - that's it!   No more, no less.  Dogs may try to "dominate" other dogs, cats other cats, budgies other budgies (scary mental picture here :D ) however different species do not try to be "alpha" to each other - certainly not the animal species (humans - well, that's different :( )    The different animal species are made up of prey and predator - not dominant and submissive (except within their own kind).

Our dogs on the other hand are domesticated and reliant on us for the creature comforts, essential life sources, and general care / companionship.   Please bear that in mind with your very young puppy.

regards, Teri

I'm so glad you posted that, Teri! Only I was mentally composing a similar (but nowhere near as well put) message when I was rudely interrupted by the demands of real life!

So please don't deny your pup the affection you want to lavish on him, Lynn, because of these out-dated "dominance" theories. Unfortunately there are still "experts" out there spreading this tosh and there's no doubt that it can undermine the great relationship we all want to have with our dogs.

I agree, forget about your dog trying to dominate you, your spouse or your household.

Instead, read this link: http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2004/Debunking.pdf

I guess we dont have many Jan Fennell fans in here today

Don't think we ever have :P

Well, all else has failed so I'm just printing off the link that onetwothree posted.  If this doesn't help, Im going to try and establish the higher position as you have done lyndob!  It does make sense - I do think Jasper is quite dominant!!
Wasn't something I wanted to do but think to save my arms and hands I might have to - he is 15 weeks old and is now very strong !

All else has failed? hes only 15weeks? how long have you been trying one method it doesnt change them overnight!

Our girl is 8months old and still acts up albeit less than she used to its a case of keep at it (one method only you don't want to confuse the little guy), it does start to work eventually.

I was getting continually humped by our male dane and was told he was asserting dominance at training class, :D :D hmmm nothing to do with the in season bitch next door and he was just plain horny!

Hi again Maria,

Please don't feel that at only 15 weeks of age you've somehow failed your puppy!  You are training what for all intents and purpose is a *baby alien* - far too young to learn much from his own species never mind us folks and he doesn't even speak English ;) 

Moulding our four legged friends into upstanding canine citizens takes time and, no surprise, patience!  But it is with rewarding good behaviours, even if by chance and only for a nano second, that we instil the best in them and so get the best from them in return.  They desperately want to please us - never to offend, and certainly never to dominate us.

Would you want your puppy to behave for you through fear of reprisal?  I'm sure you wouldn't - but if you employ rank reduction methods to this tiny, loving, trusting little being at this tender age you will confuse and frighten him.

You have been given sound advice by several members based on many years of experience with multiple dogs in various breeds coupled with exceptionally good links on how best to progress.  Jasper, I can assure you, is NOT dominant and you need to train your own thoughts to trying to understand him and general excitable puppy behaviour.  

Oh my gosh, you are making me feel so guilty!! 
I know he is only 15 weeks and he is brilliant on his lead, and wonderful with everyone he meets, great with other dogs and especially with children and babies, so why does he bite me, tear my clothes, and bark like mad when he can't have his onw way?   Is this not dominance? 

Maybe not you are probably right, he is only my second dog, the first was the same breed, and I remember he was naughty as a puppy, but never quite like this, my arms have to be seen to be believed!!  He does hurt and I do cry when he is not in the room, usually from pain but also failure, I love my little man, and I want our lives to be a little easier and my arms free of bruises and clothes with no tears !
Maria

ps:  He humps me too and we don't have any bitches next door or close by!

I wouldn't worry too much about the humping either...my bitch has always done it to some extent although less so these days then when she was small but I did catch hertryingto hump a duvet the other day :rolleyes: Give him a firm 'no' or 'ah-ah!' whilst extracting whichever boy part he is attached to

"so why does he bite me, tear my clothes, and bark like mad when he can't have his onw way?   Is this not dominance?  "
No this is not dominance this is normal puppy behaviour. All puppies do it. If you look at littermates playing they are very over playful. You are simply his alternative for his litter mates.

hope it starts to get better and he doesn't tear you clothes too much.

It gets better with consistencey and time
Best wishes
Anna

Hi Maria! Don't worry, your pup is perfectly normal, and he's not dominant, any more than a human toddler is when he learns how to say 'no' and have a tantrum! Frustrated about the mutual misunderstandings maybe, but not dominant!

And humping is an action which has many meanings apart from the obvious sexual one. My 11 year old spayed bitch still likes to hump something after she's eaten her supper!

>My 11 year old spayed bitch still likes to hump something after she's eaten her supper!<

ROFL OMG that cracked me up :D :D

What about the dog who pee's on a humans leg,is this not a dominant thing? I've seen this happen twice,both times males dogs peeing on male humans. Once there was large group of owners and dogs standing around,and i watched this male staff weave around the crowd and pee on this guys leg,he didnt even realise(deep in conversation),a few other people noticed,but no-one had the heart to embarass him :p This dog must have walked past a half dozen other men to get o this particular one
Another time was when i was stopped talking to this man on a walk,and his male dog peed on the owners leg,although in this instance it came across as the dog saying "He's MY property"

What about the dog who's laying on the owners bed and when owner comes to go to bed,the dog growls him off and wont let him get into bed?

Same thing with dog lying on sofa.

These are just a couple of problems i have read about on different sites.

Can someone perhaps explain why my very submissive spayed female used to hump my very dominant spayed girl every now and then? Neither are around now,but it always perplexed me why she did this The humpee used the think the humper was playing,which she definately was not,as she used to growl as she did it and had no interest in playing during or afterward.She never tried challenging her in any other,she was definately happy with her place in the pack,it was ony this humping thing she did sometimes.

There are many reasons why a dog will pee on a human's leg, none of which are signs that it wants to be in charge of that person (which of course is what is meant by 'dominant' ;)). It might need a pee and that leg just happens to be a convenient vertical surface. That person might have been rubbed against by another dog, and the dog is marking over that dog's scent - nothing to do with it being a human!

Growling when told to get up? Don't you feel grumpy when you've got yourself comfortable and settled and then you have to move (to answer the phone or the doorbell, or a child calls you? I take umbrage too when I'm comfortable and have to move! :D

The fact that you describe your spayed bitch as being 'very submissive' and yet an occasional humper instantly disproves the 'dominance' theory about humping.

Yes I can see that humping doesn't have to be sexual because he does hump his blanket, the duvet, his toys, oh yes and me!!
I can also see that it is a mutual misunderstanding, we were only saying that he has learned so much in such a short time including an understanding of the English language, if it was the other way around I think I'd score a big 0!

I guess I'm worried because he is a Golden Retriever so he's a large breed, he is strong now, and going to get stronger, I don't want this behaviour to get out of hand.   He is great with everyone else and I don't want that to change -  because of the obviuos consequences.  I suppose I know it isn't really a dominance thing either because I'm his favourite person - he follows me around constantly and sleeps under my desk in the office, exactly where he is now, so I know he wants to be close and that is not dominant behaviour.

I still want the biting to stop because it is painful and looks appalling - hoping his good citizen classes help.....................and I'll also start to praise whenever he does something I like, even if he doesn't know he has done it!
Maria

You'll be fine, you've got a big advantage in that you have one of THE easiest breeds there is to train -and one always very eager to please. :)

Maria

I am right there with you...I get really distressed about my Goldie attacking me, and I go off and cry as I remember my old boy who never bit me. My partner lays on the floor and the pup goes up and licks him but if I get down he jumps on me......I have obviously come down to play..........and starts the biting. So why doesnt he bite my partner who is more inclined to shout at him and also plays rough where I fuss my little man, feed him, walk him etc.

Hi Lynn

>So why doesnt he bite my partner who is more inclined to shout at him and also plays rough where I fuss my little man, feed him, walk him etc.

Probably because you mean *everything* to him - his world, all round best friend, provider of everything he needs in abundance and so his favourite ;)  but don't tell your OH :D

I've posted a link to MariaC which will help you to understand what is happening and why and also (for your sake) how to eventually overcome this behaviour correctly ;)

Best wishes, Teri

Hi Lynn

I think as Teri says, we are our goldies best friends, and I do know Jasper favours me as yours obviously does you!  So, at least we have something to work with, I've just printed the link that Teri kindly posted and will be reading it this afternoon (very small writing)!!

Yes, I also think they are like young children, they know Mum loves them best so they don't have to try hard to make her love them, and they don't have to behave, but in the end it is Mum they want to please!

I know it's upsetting but I'm feeling more positive today so hope you are too Lynn.  After all, as Goldimail mentioned, Goldies are the easiest breed to train and most eager to please.  (glad we chose goldens now aren't we)?

Maria

I'll refer you again to this very useful link re mouthing & biting http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop.htm   Please print it off, a few copies, and have everyone in the household involved in implementing the same strategy when pup's behaving that way.

We've all been where you are now and can relate to your feelings so try not to get downhearted, defeated or frustrated by it - take our word for it it's a *puppy thing* and he'll grow out of it :)  

Thanks for the link Teri

You're very welcome :)  Stay positive - those needle like teeth eventually fall out :D by which time you'll have pretty much instilled bite inhibition so lots of peace, calm and short sleeved tops, shorts, sandals to come :P

Apart from the humping, we have the same problems, and like you Maria, I've sat in tears wondering where I went wrong. Even when she learned to control the strength of her bite, those needle teeth still cut and puncture, and yes heavy dogs do cause bruises - after being whacked full pelt in the solar plexus yesterday, I was in pain for some hours
Unlike any of our previous dogs, this one seems to go through a lot of irritation and pain with her teething - we've come to realise that when she's particularly bad, it's often a loose tooth - only yesterday she was tearing around the bedroom like a hooligan, and later on we found a large tooth on the floor in there - she'd been an awful pest the day before and it must have been the loose tooth. This morning, the groomer came, and unlike before she was terrible and would not keep still. After they left we saw that the bottom two 'spiky' teeth had new ones growing from the same socket, and that the two baby teeth were very loose. One has just fallen out, so at least she's less troubled and the other should follow soon.
Thanks to something I read here, she's now happily chewing gently on a wrung out wet tea towel that has been in the freezer.

She's always been loopy, mad and boisterous at times - even squeaky toys will change her behaviour in seconds, and I think the natural boisterousness has become one with the teething discomfort, as during the times between teeth coming out, she's actually becoming far better behaved and calmer. We're only 7 weeks ahead of you and Jasper, but we've seen those improvements in the past month. Perhaps Jaspers teeth are beginning to trouble him.
One thing I read here that has definitely helped has been the time out - putting her the other side of the gate from where we are or even outside always calms her after a ten minute break because her one desire is to be with one of us - it took a little while and a fair bit of ignored barking, but she seems to be aware now and when we say 'I'll put you out!' it's sometimes enough to stop her without having to do so. Distracting her when she's biting at ankles etc helps a bit too.

Our groomer knows her Dad and says he's one of the biggest SP's he's ever seen, she's already 22kg and 21.5" at the shoulder, and very powerful, so I well understand your concerns - but we've never even heard her growl, her tail is always wagging and she's a lovely dog, so I'm actually beginning to believe that in the moments when this gentle creature puts her paws on my face with affection and lays across my lap, that she will one day be the delight that we were despairing she'd never be!

It can get very depressing being the love object of a mad bitey pup but if you are consistent in following the tips on the bite inhibition link and put all thoughts of dominance theory and establishing "higher rankings" out of your head, you'll get there! Honestly!

Not very many months back, I was quite certain that I'd mistakenly brought a noisy crocodile home instead of an 8 week old pup. For sure, he was more "terrorist" than "terrier" in his dafter moments and I still remember my OH saying, rather weakly, one evening "I don't remember any of the other dogs having this many teeth".

Now coming up to his first birthday, the dog in question wouldn't recognise his own behaviour as a little pup and trust me, I'm no expert at dog training. What worked was a combination of the sound advice on here and a determination to enjoy him and work positively through the various challenging stages that most pups put you through. Not that this always easy I hasten to add but try to keep despair at bay!

"I was quite certain that I'd mistakenly brought a noisy crocodile home"

Smiling and nodding Roz - I said the same thing to someone only two months ago. Now she's still a croc in a poodle suit, but gradually a tamer croc as time is passing ....hopefully, things will get better for Maria soon too :)

Once again, I'm grateful for the information and help we find here.

I have got a new "secret weapon" that is helping!
Someone told me of a training idea they had been given which was a piece of chain to rattle....bit like the stones in a bottle, or keys.
Anyway the first time I used it was to try and stop Pepper from running off up to someone on the field and I threw the chain down on the ground hard near him. He stopped!!! Now when I go out I just rattle the chain when I think he is about to run off to see someone or another dog and he stays by me until I say he can go or the other dog has passed and we go on. Amazing and quick response. I have also used it when he has gone into "mad" mode and started to jump up and grab my clothes. He lets go immediately. Sometimes he nibbles at the edge of my clothes I think to make a wee point and then he is fine.
He has generally settled down and is now responding very well generally. We went to the vets for a routine check and he was as good as gold, quite settled he even laid down.