We have an 8 month old puppy (springer cross) called Lucy who recently has been showing signs of "fear aggression" towards other dogs and I don't know how to stop it.  We got her as a rescue puppy when she was 11 weeks old and did everything we could to socialise her.  She has been going to puppy classes twice a week for ages and we also have a 4 year old dog who she adores.  In most circumstances Lucy is the softest thing -adores all people and rolls over on her tummy all the time.  But when she was 4 months old she was attacked (although not hurt) by another dog, and it happened again a month or so later.  Thinking back she seemed to get more nervous after that - although I can't be sure it stemmed from then.  Anyway, she started barking at other dogs out on our walks and looking very scared of them a few weeks ago.  We hoped with a bit of positive reinforcement (avoid confrontation and reward when well behaved) the problem would pass.  But over the last couple of weeks it has got much worse and this weekend we took the dogs to Dorset for the weekend and she was an absolute nightmare.  She is now barking frantically at every dog she sees - even if they are on the lead and miles away - or even if we are in the car passing them by!  What's more, she is now growling and lunging at them, before running away.  Given the opportunity she goes right up to their face and barks at them.  So far we have been lucky as the other dogs have been well behaved or she has been on a lead and we have been able to keep them apart - but it is really scarey and we are spending all our time apologising to people for her behaviour.  And then the final straw - today our older dog, who has never shown any aggression, has started barking at other dogs too.  I'm too scared to take her to her puppy class tomorrow or to take her out on a walk as we are surrounded by other dogs.   Is there any chance this is something to do with her "teenage period" and she might grow out of it?  I have read other posts on fear aggression but they all seem to talk about the cause of it and not how to solve the problem.  Please can somebody help?

Hi - If I were you, I'd go to the vet's and get her checked out by the vet physically.  Has she had her first season yet?

If the vet can't find anything, then ask for a referral to an APBC behaviourist: http://www.apbc.org.uk/members.php

She was spayed when she was 7 months old so can't be coming into season.  I don't suppose being spayed could have anything to do with it?

Probably not, although there are some theories about spay-induced aggression.  Retrospectively it would have been better to let her mature without spaying her, if she was showing signs of being nervous/defensive beforehand. 

But, whatever caused it, it's there now and you should focus on finding a solution, not so much on analysing why it exists.

If she has been spayed, it could be the reason, you have had her bits taken away,
so she will show agression more like a dog would. She will warn them off.
You can't blame her wanting to get in there first, if she has been attacked twice already.
I would try to find a person with the same breed of dog, who is friendly and allow her to get to know him or her and play. You have to build her confidence up again.
When she barks at other dogs tell her to "leave" if you walk past one tell her to leave keep talking to her jerk her lead for her attention. Then tell her she's a "good girl" constancy. I find it works.

I wouldn't try to jerk her lead for attention - if a dog is really barking at another dog, no little jangle of the lead is going to get its attention.  It would have to be a pretty big yank, and that's a form of punishment.  You don't want to complicate the issue by introducing punishment, because all you will do is suppress the behaviour and it may manifest in other ways (ie, she may appear not to be aggressive until a dog gets right up to her, then suddenly go for them). 

We can't give you advice on this one, on an online forum - if you are concerned enough to want to fix it (which I think you are, from the number of times you've posted about it and from what you say), then you should go and see a reputable behaviourist. 

Whereabouts do you live?  If you are anywhere even remotely near Angela Stockdale, you should go and see her - she is really excellent - here's her website:  http://www.dogpartnership.co.uk/

When she barks at other dogs tell her to "leave" if you walk past one tell her to leave keep talking to her jerk her lead for her attention. Then tell her she's a "good girl" constancy. I find it works.

Absolutely not! This dog is barking out of FEAR, so why scare her MORE?! She will then be told that when she gets scared and says so, she gets punished, so things will get a lot worse. The OPPOSITE is the kindest way to go. Do not force any confrontation, make sure the dog can hide behind you if necessary. If there is a bark or anything, ignore it. Try to get the attention on something else instead, such as a toy or yourself or treats. Then praise.

She is only a puppy, her confidence needs building again, she should also feel confident and safe with her owner. If it is just fear the whites of her eyes will be red.

<<If it is just fear the whites of her eyes will be red. >>
I'm sorry - but I would never, ever use this as way of determining whether or not a dog is suffering fear aggression.

And "just fear" seems to be trivialising the problem.

Margot

Hi,
The whites of the eyes do go red, with fear and anger, that is the teaching  of qualified
dog psychologists. Qualified, behaviourists, psychologists, will confirm this.
A very close friend who has her own buisness, is qualified in all these region. Has all the certificates,
to confirm this. So I know that is right
Regards
Denese

>with fear and anger, that is the teaching  of qualified

two very different emotions don't you think    I'd certainly want to be sure which, if either, was behind it.  

regards, Teri
ps. I think a heck of a lot of photographers come across it too ;)

You said the whites of the eyes go red for "fear and anger".

Snow queen said they go red for "just fear".

:rolleyes:

Snap Teri!

Fear and anger require totally different treatment, so even if this is true (and I've never seen it - besides, who'd be daft enough to open a dog's eyes wide to examine the whites when it's angry?) it's best to ignore this possible symptom. Eyes also go red with overheating, conjunctivitis ....

This article about canine body language is interesting. Here, the only 'red eye' they mention for fear or anger is flash reflection from the retina because the pupil is dilated.

Hi,
Well, if you are going to work with a dog, you would have to take all on board,
A lot of dogs you can see the whites of there eyes. I can in my bitches, My one does
not want to mate, so I do look at her eyes, I know now, she is just frightened. So it can now
be delt with, you have to know your dogs, don't you.
We all on here give open advice, but! we don't know the dogs. It is just general advice.
We all have our opinions
But!! some things like red eyes are common on all upset dogs. Take a look next time,
Some think happens, "don't force the eyes open to see though"
Just take note!

I think you should be able to tell if your dog is afraid of something without examining the whites of its eyes....:rolleyes:

onetwothree,
Well!! you seem to know more than me about my dogs explain yourself

Er

Not talking about your dogs, but all dogs - yours included.

If you have to look at their eyes to know they're afraid, then I think you may be overlooking a few more basic indications....

Hi Denese

>some things like red eyes are common on all upset dogs

I do think that's a very sweeping generalisation - I'm very in tune with my own dogs' moods - all of them, and always have been ;)  but have never seen this strange "red eye" in ANY dog except as a result of an infection or foreign body irritating the eye itself.

I personally think that our dogs give us far more obvious body signals when fearful, intimidated or ready to challenge another dog than something as obscure as the white of the eye reddening.   In any event in my own breed and that of many herding / guarding ones the eyes are distinctly almond in shape and it is an extremely rare event to see the white of the eye at all (regardless of any possible tinge ;) )

The only "red" (although more often amber) that I've seen is when the pupils are fully dilated - this is a result of light flashing against the lens as I understand it (hence the red/amber eye often problematic in photos)

regards, Teri

Hi Terri,
Speak to a dog psychologist and let them explain it to you

There are no professionally qualified "dog psychologists" in the UK :rolleyes: - but then again perhaps you're an overseas poster   In any event our best bet is a behaviourist in the UK and you've already got at least one poo-pooing your comments here :)

Well I have a Golden (the ONLY breed of my dogs where it would be POSSIBLE to ever see the whites of their eyes, as like Teri says in some breeds like Belgians it would be more or less impossible) -and he turned terribly ring shy. He would really PANIC, hysterical with fear. We quickly learnt how to tell when he was going to panic at ringcraft (we've given up on him now as it was unfair on him) and the three signs were -in this order- that a) his tail stopped wagging and b) his hind legs would start shaking, and c) then his eyes would turn back in their sockets until the whites of the eyes showed. This is when he was literally TERRIFIED -not when he got just a bit scared. On NO occasion were the whites RED!

She's not going to feel confident and safe with her owner if her owner is yanking her around on the lead, is she?  And sorry but I agree that the stuff about her eyes is total baloney! :rolleyes:

No dog will feel confident and safe by being jerked on the lead when they get scared.

You need a behaviourist now Feebee, whether it is to do with the spaying or to do with a fear of other dogs brought on by attacks as a pup, the behaviour pattern now seems to be set so you need an expert to walk with you and watch how Lucy reacts and that is how a solution can be found.  You have done all the things that we have advised, but if it is not working then bless you for putting in the effort, but she needs more help than you can give, even knowing why she does it does not mean that you can solve it, a proffessional who is used to the problems day in and day out and understands dogs can give you the correct tactics and also the confidence to help her through this.

Good luck and looking forward to hearing all about her progress. :-)

I see you live in Surrey - be careful to avoid one behaviourist who unfortunately works from a vet practice there... she's made some dogs worse!

At this age you have every chance of turning her around with good professional help, but don't wait and think she will outgrow this whatever you do - time is of the essence :)

Try www.dogtrain.co.uk as Sarah Whitehead is an aggression specialist and may be a good start if you are too far from Angela...

Lindsay
x

Thank you for all your replies.  We were brave this evening and took her to her puppy agility class, dreading what she was going to be like after her displays at the weekend.   To our great relief she wasn't too bad.  As long as we could kept her busy or concentrating on us she was fine....it was only when she got bored part way through that she started barking a bit at the other dogs.  But she knows most of them there and gets on really well with some of them, so it wasn't as if she was being tested with strange dogs.  Still - at least it was better than we'd hoped.

We were wondering whether her extra bad behaviour at the weekend was due in part to being away from home for the first time and feeling unsure about her surroundings?  Just a thought.

Still, we are taking all your advice and seeing somebody this wednesday.  It is the person who runs the obedience and agility club which we go to but she is also APDT qualified and deals with behavioural issues so we'll see what she says.  She knows Lucy so should be able to offer some insight.  Sadly we are too far away from Angela but Sarah Whitehead is a possibility if we still seem to need someone after this Wed.  Am I allowed to ask the name of the behaviourist we should avoid?

Thank you for all your kind words of encourgement - Lucy is just the most gorgeous soppy dog and very submissive most of the time so I do hope we can nip this one in the bud.

Good luck and I hope you see some improvement. 

Without wanting to be pessimistic, a dog trainer (APDT registered or not), is not the same as an APBC qualified behaviourist.  To become a member of the APDT, you only need be running positive reinforcement training classes which meet relatively minimal criteria.  It is not a reflection of any training or experience the person has.  By comparison, to be a member of the APBC, there is a very long and stringent list of criteria, both practical and theoretical, which the person has to show.

Sometimes I just get worried by people who come on forums like this and then say "don't worry, I'm seeing a trainer about it" - the wrong help can actually make things a lot worse than no help at all.  Not saying this is the case here, but this is just a general worry I have in situations like this.

my dog has a little bit of fear aggression  towards big dogs (bigger than springer size and upwards), after many a time that  a large dog has run up to her, wanting to play, and her running away, then being cornered and snapping her teeth together,

she has now learnt when she spots a large dog approaching too boisterously, she stands ground and gives a few nervous/excited barks, this must tell the dog she aint up for rough and tumble, because each time she has done this, the large dog slows down and approaches with more respect! im not letting it worry me alot as she has took control in her own way, she loves any dog - whatever size, but doesnt appreciate the overpowering play as she is weaker (leg disease)

maybe your dog is trying to gain control over other dogs?

A quick update on progress with Lucy. We saw the vet this morning who confirmed there is nothing physically wrong with her, and having observed her behaviour in the waiting room as other dogs came and went confirmed that she believed Lucy has a fear problem with other dogs that, although relatively mild now, needs to be addressed before it degenerates into something worse. I explained that she had been attacked by a GSD a couple of months ago, and the vet recommended that we try to steer clear of GSDs since (in her opinion) a large proportion of GSD owners do not have proper control of their dogs. Then had a session with the behaviourist at midday and that went very well. We spent an hour working Lucy with 6 "stooge" dogs varying from the "so laid back they were horizontal" up to the "full on bouncy enthusiasm". Lots of reassurance, encouragement and click treating till I got arthritus got Lucy to a stage where she was no longer barking or rolling over on to her back every time they got close. Interestingly the behaviourist also said to steer clear of GSDs since the majority of owners do not know how to handle these dogs (and Lucy clearly has a bit of a phobia about them also). Finally this evening we had her weekly puppy class (where last week she had disrupted the whole class with her constant barking). Two of the other owners commented on how much better behaved she was compared to a week ago, and by the end of the class she was even playing with dogs that a week ago she would not allow within 10 feet of her. What a lot for a little doggie in one day. So .....some real progress, and at least we now feel more confident about how to help Lucy through her problems. Still a lot more work to do, but a step in the right direction.Thank you all for your suggestions and encouragement. One thing it has really brought home to us (as relatively inexperienced dog owners ....isn't 20/20 hindsight a wonderful thing) is the importance of carefully managing a puppy's environment and experiences during the first year of their life. The behaviourist said that if the same attack had happened to her when she was 2 or 3 years old she would probably have got over it in a week or two, but any such experience in their first year creates a deep and lasting impression.......next time we'll know better.

Hi Feebee

Just wanted to say how glad I am that you are getting things sorted out! It must be such a worry when your dog is behaving like this and youre not sure how to handle it. Well done for seeking advice and then following it through - it will, im sure, pay off for you and your dog.

A quick question though, you said that your other dog was now barking at others too. Did you ask for advice on this too? Is the feeling that when Lucy starts to get better the other dog will follow suit? Sorry, just being nosey!

Best of luck and like I say, Im sure your hard work and patience will pay off very soon.
Caroline

We didn't actually think to ask advice about our other dog - we should have thought!  It seems that she only barks when Lucy does so far, so we're hoping that if we calm Lucy down then Phoebe will not feel the urge to step in and defend her (which seems to be what she thinks she is doing).  She certainly seems to have been quieter over the last few days.  Bless her - I think she is trying to protect the whole family!

Feebee

Im sure she will calm down soon. I was just interested to know what the advice was. Keep us posted?!

caroline

Well done with Lucy.  Absolutely agree with what your behaviourist said - totally 100% protect puppies for at least the first 12 months, if not 18 months of their life.  Fill that time with only positive experiences with other dogs and pups.  If they have a bad experience after that time, they will have all those other positive experiences behind them and will most likely reach the right conclusion that it was just that one dodgy dog.  Otherwise, if the bad experience happens earlier, they generalise and assume that all dogs are nasty.  Don't take risks with pups.  Well done - now you have to keep it up and keep up that exposure and click and treats with other dogs.  The fear will return if you don't keep going until you've stamped it out!

Hello Feebee,
Sorry to hear about your problem. Having been attacked twice, Lucy then viewed all other dogs as 'the enemy'. When faced with an enemy, all animals have one of two responses. This is called 'fight or flight'. Lucy's first instinct, if she is afraid, would be 'flight'. However, if she is on a lead she is unable to flee, she is then forced to fight, even though she doesn't want to. After a few times of being forced to confront other dogs whilst on the lead, this would very quickly become 'learned behaviour' and she would do it whilst off the lead. You need to teach her that other dogs are not 'the enemy'. On no account raise your voice when she barks at other dogs, she will simply think that you also barking and reinforce her belief that there is something to fear. She needs to socialise with other dogs, but in an environment where she feels in control of the situation. If you have friends with quiet, well behaved dogs, ask them to bring their dogs into your garden, (not all at once obviously). Make sure Lucy can escape into the house if neccessary. She may be afraid at first, but after a while her curiosity will get the better of her and after a while, she will instinctively know that the other dog doesn't pose a threat. Do this a few times and your problem should be cured. Good Luck

Just a quick update on Lucy for those of you kind enough to take an interest.  We've been following the advice of the trainer we saw and there has been a huge improvement already.  She is still clearly very nervous when she meets new dogs but at least now 90% of the time she is just being very submissive (or possibly even hiding from them) but no barking.  There are one or two dogs she still barks at but it is becoming less and less.  I took her to her obedience class tonight, which was a complete nightmare a couple of weeks ago, and she was a different dog.  Mind you, she is clearly uncomfortable with other dogs still - they were doing a socialising exercise when we arrived with several young dogs off the lead together in a fenced off area - I let Lucy join them (after having introduced her gradually first) and she just stood to one side - clearly too nervous to join in the playing.  Still....we are making progress slowly but surely.  Thank you to everyone who has helped so far.

Great news Feebee, asking for help is the first step to curing a problem, so pleased you took our advice and saw a good trainer, there is always someone out there that can help.

Wishing you all the best of luck in helping Lucy to be the dog she should be. :-)

Just to say well done, Feebee, for putting the effort in to get Lucy back on track. It's obviously paying dividends so all you need to do is keep up the good work. :)
I hope Lucy appreciates what a special owner she has !

That's great news Feebee. Lucy is still young so hopefully she'll continue to gain confidence. Well done for getting help, she's a lucky girl.