My neighbour has a JRT is due to whelp in about a week - she has no idea what she is doing and keeps asking me for advice which I am reluctant to give as she claimed she knew what she was doing due to having a couple of litters from her cocker :(  I have been down this road before and ended up having to whelp 8 lurcher pups which was a 9 hour sitting and then watch the idiots bring them up and making stupid mistakes despite all my good advice :(

Now, if this neighbour asks me to help whelp the pups I will say no, unless the pups or bitch is in real trouble of course because I think people like this just wont learn unless they are left to it and I am fed up with being used and then shrugged of if they don't like my advice for instance.  So anyway, this neighbour tells me the other day that she was going to ask the farmer that bred her JRT if he would dock her pups - I told her this was a bad idea and she should go to the CODB for obvious reasons! Now my breed are docked very short so I have to admit that I prefer them with docked tails but on JRT's I think a tail looks quite nice, esp when these are all pet dogs not worked in any way, I suggested this but it was shrugged off.  I also said that if she was to have them docked I would go for banding but her reply was, I don't want to find yukky tails (never mind the pups having to have their tails cut off and then stitched then go back to remove stitches???)!  So I though well that's the least of your worries mate!  Then she tells me a couple of days ago that she went to the farmer who bred her dog (she never said why but I think we all know why) and saw that he had a bitch ready to pop any day and a bitch that had recently had pups but it turned out she was a Chihuahua x JRT and guess what.......he could breed enough for the poxy demand....sigh!  Why oh why oh why!  I just looked at her for ages thinking, how thick can some people be.....I said nothing as she is the sort of person who shuts of when you say anything important but I was so angry that she also thought this was amazing and how cute they were!

All I can say is, good luck to her dog and pups cos they are gonna need it!

people shouldnt breed if they dont know wat there doing :(

Sadly people do themselves, let alone their animals

Tell me about it Sarah, it will be the dog / pups that suffers not her :(

Very good point Brainless - trust me she needs a LOT of help....silly so and so!  What makes me laugh is that not too long ago she would not even talk to me all because I told her that her GSD was barking for hours on end, only becuase I was concerned someone would report he but she took offence....now she wants my advice

Docking is illegal unless a vet performs it.  There are huge penalties, including cruelty to animals and being banned from keeping animals for X years.  Unless she wants to lose bitch AND pups to the RSPCA, she'd be well advised to contact the CDB. :rolleyes:

i know theres a   farmer that does that cross near me,how odd. cute dogs but i wouldnt thave thought thered be that much demand for them

Well there is a lot of demand for Chi's that are hard to breed,a dn for Joe public that cross woudl fit the bill, and the bitches probably whelp easily and have larger litters.

Have seen plenty of tiny russells that look almost like chi crosses.

the ones i see just look like mini fine JR with nice heads,nice stop etc, but def quite terrier in character

docking is illegal except by a vet

If I was you, if the pups end up being docked by the farmer, I'd tip the RSPCA off. Might just make your neighbour think a little at least, if they get a home visit.

I`m afraid we live in a fantasy would if we think that poeple dont dock their own pups,  i know  of farmers/Livery yards/Terrier men/Huntsmen........who all own and produce many litters of JRT  for work ,and also a bit of  pocket money , and without exception will dock (or know a man who does)   their own puppies tails, and how are you going to prove , who did it.if it ever was questioned??   they would say "well we did not know the name of the  vet that came  to dock them.......   as with the CDB it is all clock and dagger anyway, most people dont know the vet that they take tham to , as it is usually in a place they have never been to before.....also many an old established kennel still dock their own pups tails, and i have to admit they can do a better job of it than some vets..

You do know the vet that you use via the CDB you are given their name and details etc. !!!  You do not have to give their names though if you were questioned!

Won't it all be irrelevant if the anti docking bill goes through ? As I understand it, they propose that you can be fined just for owning a docked dog, and risk having it taken from you. In the rare exceptions, an exemption cert will be supplied, and vets made responsible for reporting any illegally docked dogs. The Parliament.uk website has it all on the current bills >anilmal welfare bill section. I haven't ploughed through it all, but it looks as though they mean to be tough.

Assuming it goes through, it'll be odd seeing traditionally docked dogs with long tails!

So what happens if you buy a docked dog in Wales or Ireland?  as docking will still be legall there ,you can still bring a  docked dog in from iether of these places! 

Don't know - thought it was Great Britain, not just England. The bill is so full of gobbledygook, I gave up trying to get through it as I feel there are far more pressing animal welfare issues that need addressing.
Our SP has a longer docked tail - first we've had like that - it looks nice, but has already shown that it's prone to injury.

>As I understand it, they propose that you can be fined just for owning a docked dog, and risk having it taken from you.

Not true.

Wales like Ireland has its own Parliament, and make their own laws, there is no docking ban in Wales!

Right, didn't realise that it wasn't the whole country. I see that Scottish parliament voted in favour of an outright ban last month, with no exemptions for working dogs, and even makes it illegal to take a dog out of Scotland to be docked.
If this (in England and Scotland) falls under the proposed heading of 'unneccesary suffering', then the penalties proposed are fines of up to £20,000 or in severe cases, a prison sentence and the dog taken into care.  They propose to make the owner responsible. These do sound extreme penalties, but if a biased judge for instance, decided to make an example of an 'offender' then severe penalties look like being a possibility.

I have heard rumblings that this will also have an affect on the KC and shows like Crufts.

By the way, I have no firm views either way on the docking issue. But, if the new animal rights bill prevents some of the terrible suffering & cruelty that we see and hear of, then I can only say about time.

I don't think it will stop it.  The people who dock illegally are more than likely people who do not work or show their dogs, but people underground who do activities that many of us wouldn't agree with!  I think that there are more important things regarding animals that the government or whoever should have dealt with before doing something like this.

"I think that there are more important things regarding animals that the government or whoever should have dealt with before doing something like this."

I couldn't agree more. It would seem that many such issues are also encompassed in the new bill. How far the different bodies and authorities will go to enforce them, remains to be seen.

I quite agree. Isn't it strange that this government considers it cruel to hunt hares with dogs, but not cruel to hunt rabbits with dogs. Do they think that rabbits don't feel as much pain as hares, (how many MP's would even be able to tell the difference between a rabbit and a hare). It seems to be ok to commit acts of cruelty in the name of religion. We are not allowed to use a pack of hounds to hunt a fox but if you are a Muslim it's quite ok to slit a sheeps throat in your back garden and let it bleed to death, (I don't have anything against Muslims or any other religious group, I'm very anti the Labour government and it's ambivilant legislative procedures). As for docking, it's not ok to snip the end off your puppies tail, but if you are Jewish it's quite ok to snip the end off your son's penis. Has the country gone mad!!

>  but if you are Jewish it's quite ok to snip the end off your son's penis

Although this it is widely known to be a Jewish custom, it is also so in many communities, religions. It is not widely known that several senior members of the Royal family have been circumcised - as were/are many British men :) So not really necessary to bring in the 'Jewish' bit :)

Daisy

It wasn't intended in any way as a slur on the Jewish community. I have a huge amount of respect for a race of people whom I consider to have the utmost dignity and tolerance.I am in actual fact married to a man of Jewish origin. It was merely an example. I'm sure there are many other religions which practice circumscision, I just couldn't call any to mind. As for the Royal family, although I have met several members of the Royal Family in the course of my work, my contact with them fell well short of ascertaining the state of their genital region.

> my contact with them fell well short of ascertaining the state of their genital region

LOL - I should hope so too :D :D

Daisy

So glad you didn't take offence. I pride myself on being totally non-judgmental where peoples race or religion are concerned. Just can't stand bigotted, hypocritical MP's who take their huge salaries, (paid by us)
and use their position to launch class wars and indulge in self-aggrandisement.

I believe Muslim boys are also routinely circumcised; and I've heard that it's normal practice for Australians, of whatever religion.

And 80 % of all American men -it's the norm there. And for whatever reason, I have never eh intimately known a man who HASN'T been -but none have been religious or from very religious parents, or indeed jewish or muslim or catholic.

Glad I'm not a boy, although I believe it's also common practice in some countries to circumscise young girls
and sew up their privates, leaving a very small gap, to ensure that they are virgins when they marry. Ugh!!!

I saw a documentary on the female circumcision and it is the most barbaric custom aimed solely at controlling the sexuality of women, removing any pleasure possible in order to do so.

It causes huge health problems and pain.  Hardly comparable to the male circumcision which actually has some benefits.

I'm sure there are many other religions which practice circumscision, I just couldn't call any to mind.

It's also quite common practice in the USA not linked to any religion at all. It is common  in the middle & far East, the other religion you couldn't remember BTW is Islam & was originally done for hygene reasons thousands of years ago(as was not eating pig meat in hot countries before freezing & refridgeration Pork "goes off"very quickly in heat & salting it(as done in Europe)doesn't preserve it either)

Circumcision is also performed as a "rite"of passage in some countries.

Just as Joe Public assumes things about certain breeds of dogs, it would appear they they also assume that circumcision is solely a"Jewish"thing when in fact it predates Judaism & was done in Ancient Egyptian times & not linked to religion at all. Many African(& South Amerian etc) tribes included (& still include)circumcision as part of the transition from childhood to adult for men

It has been made clear that the ban will not affect animals docked before a particular date (yet to be announced) but will not be sooner than the date the law is enacted - and it hasn't yet.

Wales has a National Assembly, not a Parliament. There's a difference in their powers.

There's no docking ban in England at the moment either, but the new Animal Welfare Bill will apply to both England and Wales. This might make it clearer.

Very true JG.
The bill - here:http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmbills/058/06058.i-iii.html does mention Wales.
The penalities come under section 4-7.

Man, I'm so lucky to live in a country where tail docking, ear cropping and other acts of cruelty are illegal!

Hi,  I have just been put in the same situation.  I helped during whelping for the sake of the bitch and managed to save 2 pups, but only to find that due to cutting costs and thinking of the end result! (hoping she was going to make money!!!), I had to take 8 dangerously sick puppies to the vets.  I held one until it died in my hands, I wasnt just upset but angry too.  All the advice had been completely ignored and whether the rest make it through the next 24 hours well its in the the lap of the gods I am affraid.

Some people!!

Well with luck even if the two remaining ones survive it will have been a costly exercise and the owner will see sense and neuter the bitch.

So frustrating isn't it! 

Well, got a call at lunch time today from the 'breeder' (cough) and whilst I vowed to stand by the fact that I wouldn't help her whelp the pups cos she wont learn, she called upon a friend of mine (and hers) as she saw a 'lump' hanging out of the back of her :rolleyes: 'yes love, it's probably a puppy' (silly argh!) Anyway he went round and has whelped a dog and bitch for her, and she was amazed because they suckled right away - I mean, for god's sake, is she for real?

I give up, no doubt she will have the world and its wives round during and after - she told me the poor thing wanted to whelp under the cupboard so she shut her in the bathroom :(  - she obviously wants to have some quite time but like I say, there just aint no telling her!

I give up - now that my neighbour has gone back on his word to also no help she will prob never learn and think its ok to have another litter

Hi just an update,  the puppies made it through the night so stupidly she started giving them a full diet of Puppy meat (canned) straight away with nothing else added!  Against advice. Consequently they were back to square one by teatime! and back at the vets again today.  I have just had a good moan! and given up completely.  She had even sold one puppy at just 5 and half weeks!!  2 more were gioing on Saturday at just 6 weeks.    How can someone be so plain stupid!

( i also told her if she were to have them docked i would go for banding)  I was under the impression this was also illegal Chris

No it's legal, as long as it's done by a vet.

I do not understand some people, there is no money to be made from breeding when you work out the expenses before hand and then raising the pup. Ok im not a very experienced breeder only been doing it a couple of years but before i done it i did as much research as possible studied lines got my girl health tested and with the help of a very experienced breeder found the perfect stud dog had a successful mating and a litter of healthy pups, when the pups were 8 weeks old and all gone to new homes i worked out that i had spent more money than what i got for the pups, but im not in it for the money, i love the fact that im helping to breed health tested clear pups and helping to improve the lines. I would never dream of breeding cross breeds or unhealth tested dogs, you could be producing unhealthy pups that will end up sick or in a rescue shelter before long.

That is how it should be :)

breeding is always something i wanted to do, and i didnt just rush into it, i spent years saving and researching, just as well as my 2nd litter was by casarean and it was out of hours aswel so cost over £600, im lucky cause i was saving but how do these people who just decide to breed do it, alot of them dont plan or save, if i never had that money saved up it would of really stung me having to find it.