From day 1 our she slept on kitchen floor during our absence & at night... Indeed not very easy to cook in a 10ft long x 4ft wide kitchen & a seemingly small hallway (plus it can't be fun either for her when it is so nice outside - lots of shady areas, grass and cool concrete patio).

A few days ago I started training our Golden Retriever (3 months old) to stay outside in her "house" at night (converted full size shed/playhouse with carpet). I must have picked her up over 20 times to put her back into her bed, praising her each time. After 2:30hrs around 12am I left her to it (left the shed door wide open & kitchen door closed). As a routine we go to bed around 12:30am & check on her again around 3am (and like a good girl she was in her BED in her "house"). Not bad for a first day and is still doing well - although I don't worry if she wants to stay out in that weather!!! We are up at 6:30am for her feed. So far no poos in the "house".

During the day it is up to her as she has the garden to herself or if she wishes she can go into her "house", although the lovely grass (which is slowly disappearing...), the cool concrete patio and her toys seem to be winning. You'd be surprise how much fun a skipping rope attached to a branch can be (hanging above ground to prevent accidental hanging). She has toys and water in both locations.

She is alone 3 hrs in the morning and 2½hrs in the afternoon. I go home at lunch time to feed her etc... 5 days a week (but as a school employee I get plenty of holidays plus weekends. When we are home we have a gate that prevents her from coming into the house as she still feels that the kitchen floor is her bed. Most time there is some1 with her in the garden or petting her from the kitchen above the gate (we are finding that very hard though and have let her in once too many but we do try to keep her away after 11pm).

QUESTIONS:
Do you think this training will work? How long will it take for her to recognize her new sleeping area/bed?

As we live in a quite neighborhood, have law abiding friendly neighbors on both side and have high fences all around. Should we lock her up into the house as she grows older? Or would cutting/making an opening into the shed (like a dog flap) would be sufficient? I don't like the idea of locking her up; if dog flap is ok how long can we wait before installing one?

When she is fully trained and understands where her sleeping area is would it be ok to let her pop in/out of the kitchen and hallway when we're home or would that confuse her? She also has her own comfortable full size settee which is only in use in the garden at the weekend (dry weather) and will come handy for emergencies (thunder/lighting and fireworks days as she will have to stay inside with us).

Thanks!!

My dogs sleep in their wooden kennel at night and the door is shut, as otherwise they would be up and maybe barking at every passing cat or fox.

In the day the pop holes in the doors are up and they can go in there is they wish but spend most of the day in the house which they find cooler than outside.  I have the back door open most of the year round.

If I go out or am not at home then the dogs are always in the house.

There are two reasons.

The first is that they dogs are likely to bark at anything that interests them, neighbours in their gardens, cats etc, and if your not there they will not stop, and your neighbours will get cross.  A bored or alert dog will find this one of their ways of amusing itself.

Secondly they could be stolen or poisoned (see point one).

If I go out the dogs are put in an area where they can see or hear as little of the outside world to disturb/excite them as possible, and I leave the TV or Radio on too.

Er, Line, I'm a bit worried by some of your questions :rolleyes:

Don't take this the wrong way, but this thread, combined with the thread you have posted in the Food section, paints a picture of a family which have rushed out and bought a dog without doing any research into what a dog's needs are, where to get a dog from, how dogs behave, and so on.

You are learning things as you are going along and so will always be playing a catch-up game. 

Some of the things you say make me think you have had cats before, and you seem to be trying to treat her like a cat.  Talk of the dog flap, of not wanting to shut her up, of expecting her to toilet train herself by some sort of process of osmosis, expecting her to entertain herself outside... This is all a recipe for disaster.

At this stage your puppy should be being taken out and about, being socialised - regardless of whether she's had both jabs or not.  If you don't want to put her on the ground, carry her in a shoulder bag or put her in the car and drive her to places out of the way of strange dogs.  You should be researching training classes in your area for her training and socialisation.

Do you know about dog socialisation?? Do you know that everything your puppy learns before it is 12-16 wks old is formative in the development of its character?  That it should be meeting people of all different ages, going to new places, every single day during this time?  You have a ticking clock over your dogs head and instead of socialising her you are leaving her alone for 5 and a half hours a day and not taking her outside of your garden. 

I'd suggest you have a serious read of this link:

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/dogsocialization.pdf

3 hours is too long to be leaving a new puppy for, imo, let alone 2 lots of that.  I would start by leaving the puppy for 5 mins, then 10 mins, slowly building it up.

With the toilet training, you should, imo, be giving her a treat when she toilets outside in the right place.  You can't do this if she is freely allowed to wander in and out at her will - how will you know if she has gone?  You won't be there with her to see it.  Puppies, for ease of toilet training, should be inside in a crate when you can't supervise them.  You should then take them out every hour, when they wake up, before going to bed, in the morning, on a lead (not free, even in the garden for toileting or they will just play), and wait for the puppy to toilet.  When she goes, reward with a treat.  She is not going to learn to be toilet trained if you just leave her in the garden all day - she's just going where she is, and not learning anything.  When you bring her inside, she'll just go there instead.  She may even toilet more inside if she doesn't live there and see it as her house/home.

Here is a link on toilet training and crate training:

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/housetrain.htm

http://www.ddfl.org/behavior/crate-train.pdf

When the puppy is not in the crate, sleeping, you should be watching her like a hawk, you should be playing with her, training sits and downs using food lures, developing a relationship with her.

Your puppy has just left a litter, lived in a pet shop, gone to another home, and you want to shut her out of the house in a kennel at night???  Most people would have their puppy right next to their bed for the first week or so, to make sure she settles in :rolleyes:

Personally, I'm not a big fan of kennelling dogs outside.  I believe dogs are part of the family and need to interact with the family and crave that attention and minute by minute involvement with a family.  They do not thrive on being shut outside and as a rule are under-stimulated when this happens - which in turn means that they develop behavioural problems, like barking, destructiveness, digging up the garden (just wait till she gets a bit older) and so on - all because they are bored and lonely.  Toys are no substitute for human attention - many a novice dog owner has made that mistake!  Unless you have a 6 ft high wall around your property and a completely secure area you also can't provide against things like kids teasing her, her developing the habit of chasing things along the boundaries, guarding behaviours and so on. 

If you must keep the dog outside then while she is a puppy she should still be inside, in a crate, with regular trips outside as per a puppy which is kept inside.  Outside you would need to have a secure dog run, with kennel, imo.  For short periods each day you should pop her in the outside kennel with a stuffed kong or chew toy to keep her busy, and very slowly increase the time in there, just as you are doing for the inside crate.  As she gets older, she could spend more and more time inside. 

I think you have a lot of research and reading to do.  I'd urge you to buy a copy of a book called The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson.  It's available from Amazon. 

I would agree that your dog is too young at 3 months (12 weeks) to be left alone for that long. I understand as I'm a working owner too, your dilemma, do you have someone come in to walk and play with your pup? I have to do this and it is expensive but its part of the commitment if you chose to have a dog and work. I also dont think you should leave your pup outside during the day - I only say this because my dog is now 13 months and has taken to barking at birds, sounds etc while outside (when we are there and trying to play with him!!) so I know that he would do this if on his own and annoy the neighbours. Dogs like to be part of the pack which means staying with you and your family, so it seems a shame that there is a barrier, the gate, between you and your pup. YOu may have problems later on if you dont include him and socialise him now.

I have a very small kitchen, three steps and I am across the width of it. In fact the whole house is small, so we had to plan carefully where the sleeping are would be - currently in the utility off the kitchen. Like brainless my dog stays in the kitchen/utility rooms when I am at work because there is no outside distraction for him to bark at. I put the radio on (radio 3 is popular) and leave puzzle toys and kongs which amuse him until the dog walker comes in. I alternate the toys and am always looking for new "brain" toys for him. I have video'd him to see if he is ok and when I come home he needs lots of attention, walks and training exercises!

Dont beat yourself up about this, but take some time to rethink your strategies and read and go to training classes.

im a full time worker and once had a 3 month pup, i would never have kept her outside- especially in his heat, and for fear of being stolen.

at a young age of 12 weeks the pup needs to be in the family environment if you want a dog that gets on with your kids etc. if the dog is kept outside, with only 'visits' from family, then it wont know how to live as part of your family.

i do understand as im a fulltime worker, however you got a pet dog - but you are keeping it like a rabbit, or cat, dogs arent like cats, they depend on you for EVERYTHING, including love and cuddles at nite time, trips to parks, training classes, thats part of the fun of dog owning.

and this time in your pups life is the MOST important, i missed this period with mine- she was roughly 16 wks and so just passed the socialisation window- ive worked my butt off, and socialised for britain with her, she is now a year old she is stil needing more with large dogs, but we'll get there. just be prepared that what you are doing now will come back on you 3fold really.

just enjoy your time with pup whilst she/hes so young and innocent.xxx

Onetwothree, can I just say I agree with every word you said and it was a very good post. :)

Oooooo, *blush* 

I think it is fair to say those that successfully sleep their dogs outside don't tend to do it with a single one and definately not such a young single one.

Hello everyone!

I won't take anything the wrong way I just appreciate the advice and yes indeed we have a lot of reading to do... One thing though this is not a game to us.

We have never had cats and I do not expect our puppy to toilet train herself as explained in the food section. Ok we are not experts... She is not an orphan and we do love her and we do spend a lot of time with her WHEN WE ARE HOME. The gate thing didn't last more than 2 days as she prefers lying on the kitchen floor with me (till 12:30am).

I think it is an honest mistake to think that our puppy would be happier outside in such hot weather plus combined with the fact that she has a lot of fun out there.

We did not take her out because we were worried about her health (my husband did carry her to the vet in his arm - she is too heavy for me - back problem).

We've had lots of visitors' adults and children plus my daughter chats to the 3 girls next door over the fence (5ft 4' at the sides and over 6ft at the back). We are a bit confused as she doesn't bark at them or at the wood pigeons that pop in - she simply chases them off and believe me they don't hang about (the cats have simply disappeared - can't comment about night time though).

We can plan training classes during our long summer holidays (25th July to 4th Sep) hope it won't be too late for us to repair the damage that you mentioned (so far she has only dung one tiny whole and luckily we haven't experienced that mad behavior yet. There is hope or indeed we could be getting it all tomorrow.

She will be going on regular walks from the 8th of July after her 2nd check up at the vet (morning and afternoon). For the next two week I will increase my tea break (10:20am - 11am) so I can pop home and walk her for 15mns and then run back to work (only 5mns. walk away).

We tried the crate for one day outside morning to late evening but she didn't like it. She barked a lot as soon as we closed the door. We felt sorry for her. It is going to be hard to try that again.

I thought we were doing well on the toilet training as explained in the post in the FOOD section:
"We take her to her designated "potty" area on her leash, stay with her and pick up each poo (after each meal, when we come home, after a nap or when she goes around in a circle)."

You are probably right though as she has stopped now and does it all over the garden when we are not home (really before she did it on the blanket). I still think it was the reducing her food that did it. We will go through all the links and educate ourselves.

Another problem the crate doesn't fit in the kitchen. So from tonight we'll put her bed back in the kitchen and check on her at 3am as usual and accept all the consequences, accidents etc.. Indeed a lot to think about but we are not quitters!! We will get there in the end.

Thank you all for your honesty.

Good luck, and keep asking the questions.

At the moment she is basically a baby/toddler, she will get more mischievous and sleep less in the coming months and will want to explore the world and test the boundaries.

She won't be a teenager in human terms until around 9 months to a year,a nd won't really be adult until at least two, and not really socially mature until about 3 or 4.  Being a Golden retriever she will stay pretty much the Peter pan until abut 8 or 9 years old.

Lots of tiggerific fun fun fun.

I find it helpful to remember that the more stimulation their growing brains receive, the more intelligent they become - very like children. You rmember how the Romanian children in those appalling orphanages were perfectly normal to begin with, but the lack of stimulation (being kept in their cots all the time) permanently damaged their brains? It's similar with puppies. Yes, they survive, but they could be so much better.

Your puppy certainly needs to learn to be left alone for a period of time, but til she's much older that shouldn't be for much more than an hour at a time during the day. Before she's about 16 weeks old you'll have had to expose her to as many experiences as you can - seeing people of all ages, shapes, sizes and colours, wearing hats, in wheelchairs etc. Meeting horses, cows, sheep. Seeing trains, buses, lorries. In fact anything you can think of!

Obviously it won't be possible for her to see and learn to trust everything she's ever likely to meet in such a short space of time, but the more she does learn to accept now, the less frightening new experiences will be to her when she's older.

Hi

Sorry if I have read this wrong but are your keeping your pup in the garden, if she wants to talk to you, you go out to the garden or over the child gate.  you mention the kitchen and hallway but I get the feeling that is all she is allowed in and then only when you are with her. What about the rest of the house? Does she not join you and the family in the sitting room in the evening to watch the telly and interact with you all. She is a  baby who needs to be with her new litter mates as much as possible. She needs to learn how to behave in a house and get use to all the housey noises.

Wendy

To be fair I would never allow a pup free access to all the house at this age, due to housetrainign issues.  Mine are usually pretty reliable by 12 weeks so are allowed in the living room as long as I am there to supervise, but otherwise would beehind the baby gate in the kitchen able to see into living room, and also able to come and go out the garden.

As you say it is important that pup does spend pllenty of time with the family, supervised of course, and as they are out most of the day they should commit their evenings to this as well as arranging daytime care.

Please read all those links I have posted.

Of course your puppy kicked off on one when you put her in the crate for the first time - did you spend a day or more hiding treats in there first, did you feed her meals in there?  Did you pop her in there when she was falling asleep anyway???  If you read the crate training link above that will explain more.  If you haven't gone through all this of course she will hate it.  You should also expect her to cry in it and ONLY let her out when she is quiet, or you are rewarding the noise.

It is not enough to have "lots of adults visitors, children" etc etc - what about other (vaccinated) dogs?  What about sheep, cows, cattle???  Some dogs become livestock worriers because they were not exposed to livestock during this important period. 

It's not enough to just do what you normally do and expect the puppy to end up socialised - you have to go out of your way to seek out socialisation experiences for her.

You really need to have a basic understanding of how a dog learns.  Anything it enjoys or is rewarded for will be repeated.  So - if your puppy is barking in the crate and you let her out, this barking will get worse, because you rewarded it by letting her out.  If your puppy toilets outside and you don't reward that, then it is less likely to happen again, because you did not reward it and make it a positive thing instead of just a neutral thing....

Hi onetwothree!

Please be patient as you only posted your links yesterday and I also read/reply to other people's advice too. There is only so much you can do in one day and if I spend it all reading/writing who's going to look after the puppy and start applying all these good advice?

We understand that our knowledge is poor and we made mistakes and now we know that full time employed families and school children are not suitable as puppy owners... However no doubts there are plenty out there and like us, I don't think any of them (when they found out the bad news) can afford to quit they jobs, take they kids out of school or afford a dog sitter/walker.

One very important thing I have forgotten to mention is that from early Spring through to November we hardly use our lounge/sitting room we kind of live in our tiny kitchen and the garden. We watch TV from the coolness of the garden (digital TV in all rooms). I even like it in there in winter... So I don't know how I managed to convince so many of you that when we are home we do not spend time with our puppy. I do however understand that we have a lot to learn about the socializing part.

Only 2 weeks to go, from the 25th July she will have my daughter and me FULL TIME until 4th September. She will be 5+ months old at which point I hope she will be able to cope with being alone when we are at school/work. In September I will find out if I can change my working hours... But like I said, little by little we will get there.

By making a few adjustments and try to follow a little of everyone's advice we can only hope that Amber will continue to learn even after she is over 4 months old. I refuse to panic as after all I coped giving birth to a child (and believe me we made lots of mistakes back then too and you know what? She is now a beautiful clever 11 year old who's passed all her exams - so I am not completely useless and it is never too late to learn otherwise I wouldn't have joined this forum.

I understand that time is of the essence but reading is not enough I also need to find the time to pass it all on to my husband and daughter so that we all understand what we are doing... We look after Amber as a joint family.

LASTEST:
Last night I got worried after going through all the posts so we introduced a 4th feed. We also decided to move our furniture around and put the crate in our sitting room (over looking the garden) she will have TV for visual and radio for sound and we will give this a try (following appropriate advice/link to the letter).

Hopefully we will see sheep, cows, cattle during our drives to the country (week ends and holidays) we are based in London.

We now understand how important the treats are during toilet training but we have not been neutral we have been PRAISING her by saying repeatedly "well done followed by good girl Amber and a tummy tickle/cuddle." No much but I guess it was better than nothing.

you will sometimes find a big praise/fuss goes a long way with pups/dogs. that is how I toilet trained my lad and hardly ever used treats he was just happy with a quick game of something and lavish praise after his deed had been done.
The crate training is a long process, so do expect a whine etc and don't let those cute little puppy eyes fool you.. you may feel sorry for her, but at the end of the day it is for both of your benefits and she will begin to actually like her crate. I know my boy cried for 3 nights when he first started to use one but now I don't have a peep from him.you will be able to leave your pup for longer periods of time as time goes by just remember to leave her some mental stimulation whilst you are gone like stuffed kongs, knuckle joint bones (also good for teething!) treat balls etc so that she can't get bored whilst you are not there. Last but not least always make sure she is quiet when you let her out of the crate.... even if it is just a few seconds silence. That way she will learn that crying and whining doesn't get her attention but being quiet does.
Good luck with everything you can never stop learning.
Emz

Hi Line,

I haven't read all of this thread - too much text (when it's not my own :rolleyes: ) puts me off :D

Anyway - you're not the only working family to have got a puppy and while it's not the ideal it needn't be a disaster either ;)  Some of the best socialised dogs I've met have never seen a cow, sheep, horse etc but where they live and are exercised it makes no difference!

Totally agree that you need time to read and digest all the useful info that's been passed on to you but, again in your own opinion, I agree it's important to spend quality time with your puppy and not be fretting over every possible eventuality :)

Socialisation is important of course but unless you've bought a totally unsocialised nervous wreck from a family line of dreadful characters I don't personally buy into the extremes of "socialisation windows" - radical thought I know :P - but many a street dog living with their Big Issue selling companion is a sociable, reliable, friendly and chilled out dog - even when very young (must be all those supermarket doorways and M&S treats .......

I personally don't give food for toilet training - just physical praise, tickles and happy, chirpy "good boy/girl" :)  The little blighters poo enough without providing them with more ammunition :D

Just wanted to say that you sound like a very good home and are being very responsible - nice to have you on board!

best wishes, Teri

I think Big Issue sellers dogs must be the best socialised dogs in the world :rolleyes:

All those people walking by - different ages, races, backgrounds, genders, children, old people, drunks, wheelchairs, zimmer frames, skateboarders, roller skaters, bikes, traffic, roadworks, pneumatic drills, other passing dogs - there's not really much which isn't covered.  And, of course, being homeless, these dogs are out on the streets from 7 wks +, long before the socialisation window has closed. 

They don't meet many cows do they :)  or joggers :D

I agree about the importance of socialisation BUT sometimes posters who haven't gone through the normally recommended steps can be made to feel that there is no turning back - which IMO is at best unhelpful/worrying for them.

My niece bought a 12 week old Lab puppy from a horrendous place a few months back (would she listen! :rolleyes: ) - pup hadn't seen the light of day except that which came through a shed window.  However a happier, bouncier, friendlier and more biddable puppy you couldn't hope to find from day one.  She visited me a day after picking her up and this pup didn't bat an eye lid at my dogs, washing machine, dishwasher or even the carpet shampooer required to save my niece's blushes!  Zippo, zilch, nadda - no adverse reactions at all!   She's now around 9/10 months old and apart from the predictable "Lab chewing/eating machine" phase, she's a great dog - thankfully none the worse for not being in any way socialised for her first 12 weeks :)

I think posters should be given as much encouragement and positive advice as possible - and by and large they are - but every now and then there is a very negative slant to it which IMO is unwarranted :)

regards, Teri  

 

"I agree about the importance of socialisation BUT sometimes posters who haven't gone through the normally recommended steps can be made to feel that there is no turning back - which IMO is at best unhelpful/worrying for them."

I agree, but this puppy isn't at that stage yet - she is still within the important period for socialisation, so let's encourage it.  Nothing wrong with a bit of worry, as long as you feel you can do something about it - if they are worried and the result is that they socialise her well, then I think that's a good thing!  Fear is a great motivator. 

Your niece's puppy, at 12 wks, was still within the window of socialisation, according to a lot of the research which has been done.  (Some research says it ends at 12 wks, but other research has implied 16 wks.)  Which could go some way to explaining her reaction.  Of course genetics also has a lot to do with it  

>Fear is a great motivator.

Really   Positive reward is OK for the dogs but frightening the owners is a good thing    Sorry, can't agree with that - I'm more of the "catch more flies with sugar than vinegar" school of thought :)  Encouragement yes - all for it - but a perhaps achieved differently ......

I totally agree with the puppy needing to be socialised as much and often as possible.  Regular places like supermarkets, village shopping areas, garden centres, pups/beer gardens, sitting on their lap in a park full of prams, joggers, loud kids, other dogs etc etc, on and off varying transport in differing areas & traffic - I'm familiar with the concept and 100% behind you on it :)

As to my niece's pup - she didn't do much in the way of *proper* socialising her when she got her - spent all her time oohing and aaghing over her in the garden and driving around with her while at work (she's a rep) :rolleyes: - despite my many protestations I might add.

I think it's occasionally worth remembering that there are literally many 1000's of dogs in the UK that never go through the standard type of socialisation we advocate on here - I'm not promoting that as being the way to go but equally we have to remember that lots of people "muddle through" with dog ownership and still end up with well adjusted happy family pets - just as many first time parents raise happy, healthy, intelligent and respectful children without following Dr Whatsit advice to the letter ;)

Well, rightly or wrongly, fear IS a great motivator.

If something is really important to you, and there is a chance you won't get it IF you don't do something...then you do it.

Perhaps "fear" is the wrong way to describe that.  I guess it's the threat of not getting what you want.

So, if it's really important to you that you can drive a car to get around and go where you want, when you want, and you can afford it, then you pay lots of money and suffer through driving lessons, and eventually go through the absolute terror of a driving test (which was, in my case, 3 times!!!) just so you can have the thing you want.

Equally, if it's really important to you that you have a dog which is friendly to all people, to all other dogs, and doesn't react with aggression or fear to new experiences, AND you have the relevant information and know about socialisation, then you make the effort to minimise the chances of this by taking your new puppy out and socialising it - again, just so you can have the thing you want. 

I agree with you that there are flukey dogs out there which have been undersocialised and randomly ended up ok.  Genetics, I think, must play a role in that.  There are also some people who theorise that the socialisation windows are slightly different for different breeds, with some breeds, like labradors, having a window which extends later than most, so better able to tolerate under socialisation.  Whatever the reason, for every 1 dog like this, there are probably 30 or 40 or 50 which have problems relating to socialisation.  So - just like everything - there will be exceptions to the rule.  But to minimise the chances, it's important to stress the role of socialisation in the development of a healthy, well-adjusted dog.  :) 

You seem to misunderstand me :)  

I agree with the message but have found I'm often disappointed with how it's conveyed :)  The OP here is quite clearly able to take it on the chin which is good as s/he wont be *frightened off* by some posts the way others have been in the past.   As with dogs, *fear* doesn't necessarily make us pursue what we want ;)

But isn't the prospect of owning a dog which is aggressive to other dogs or people a very frightening prospect??  I know it is always something I am frightened of, when I have a new puppy.

If it is frightening, why shouldn't that truth (not hyped up fear, but potential reality) be communicated at a time when something can still be done, to avoid that eventuality?

If we were talking about exaggeration or a distorted version of the truth, then I would totally agree with you that it's not good to scare people unnecessarily in that way, in an attempt to see them take action.  But no one here has said anything which isn't total truth and a very possible reality (for any dog), so I can't see how we're conveying something in the wrong way.  If it's frightening - that's because the idea of owning a badly socialised dog is, for most of us, frightening.

Oh for goodness sake this is just getting sillier by the minute   The *negative prospects* are by their very nature *frightening* - but the prospect don't always have to be so darned negative anyway :rolleyes:

>If we were talking about exaggeration or a distorted version of the truth, then I would totally agree with you that it's not good to scare people unnecessarily in that way,

Well IMO that's exactly what we are talking about!  There has been life before behaviourists you know - ordinary families buying pups often not from the ideal sources but nevertheless making a fantastic job of raising and training them.   My local walks are buzzing with puppy farmed Cavaliers, Yorkies, Bichons, Poodles, Springers, Cockers, Labs, GSDs - I could go on and on - my dogs mix freely with all these dogs and I can assure you that precious few have ever been to a training class or belong to an owner who has bought a book on the breed or training tips.   Not one, however, has needed to go to a behaviourist either - maybe had some off the cuff advice from myself and other more experienced dog owners but that's about all it's taken :)

Dogs are my passion just as they are yours but it doesn't cloud my opinion on those who buy and raise dogs that don't have the same in depth involvement with all matters canine that a select few (in the grand scheme of things) enjoy.  I knew next to nothing about the canine species when I got my first dog and made every mistake in the long list of books frequently recommended but I still had a well adjusted, well trained, happy, healthy and fun loving family member who gave us not a day's worry nor anyone else for that matter.  Thank goodness I wasn't starting all over again and being threatened with the Sword of Damocles for my multitude of errors :rolleyes:

I think all this talk of "windows of socialisation" is verging on bunkum - I've helped get many dogs of varying ages overcome phobias and undesirable behaviour so frankly I think if behaviourists are depending on 12, 16, 20 weeks or whatever the latest recommended period is as the final cut-off point before moving in to plunder the bank accounts then it shows more about their lack of ability than it does the average dog owner!  And what of all the rescue dogs turned around at 6 or 12 months, 2 or 5 or 10 years?   Do these "windows" suddenly develop faulty sashes and let in a sneaky bit of socialisation that we haven't bargained on

At any rate I suspect little of this is helping the OP - you are seeing this from the eyes of a trainee behaviourist whereas I'm viewing it from the POV of someone who has proved more than one leading behaviourist wrong with a number of dogs from different breeds, ages, and backgrounds.  Difference is myself and 100's like me do it free - for the love of the dog - and make no pretence about having all the answers or hanging on by our fingernails to something straight out of a book (which will be outdated in 2 years anyway to make room for the next behaviourist bible completely trashing the previous code of conduct with a difficult dog!)

Teri, if you believe that socialisation periods are "bunkum", that is your opinion, and you are perfectly entitled to it.  There are, after all, still people who believe the world is flat.  Despite extensive research and scientific investigation which proves otherwise.

However, I (and, I presume, most other people on this board, even if they are not posting on this thread) have a different opinion.  I am also entitled to share this different opinion without effectively being accused of scaremongering.  Along with many leading worldwide experts, who have spent decades researching dog socialisation periods, and along with a lot of other people on this board, I firmly believe that there is such a thing as a socialisation period.  And I firmly believe it is dangerous not to try to take full advantage of it.  AND I think I should be allowed to post such advice.

You seem to have some very strange ideas about behaviourists - that, for example, they do it for money instead of for love of the dog.  That hasn't been true of any behaviourist I've met.  The behaviourists I have met have loved dogs so much, they have decided they would rather spend their entire working life being with them and have combined their love with their work.  Of course they need to be paid, in order to live.  I wonder if you think that teachers dislike children, or only teach for the money?  Or perhaps that they should work for free?

You also have a strange idea concerning the speed with which books are outdated and theories overturned.  In actual fact, most research is incredibly coherent and there is not this overturn of theories.  There are slight differences in emphasis, but broadly speaking agreement about most issues. 

"I knew next to nothing about the canine species when I got my first dog and made every mistake in the long list of books frequently recommended but I still had a well adjusted, well trained, happy, healthy and fun loving family member who gave us not a day's worry nor anyone else for that matter. "

And for every person like you, there are 30, 40 or 50 people out there who did the same and their dog ended up in rescue, with behavioural problems.  I've worked in a rescue centre in the past and I know the histories of the dogs which ended up there.  Almost all were bought as family pets by people who "knew next to nothing". :rolleyes: 

"Oh for goodness sake this is just getting sillier by the minute"

And I'm not the one making it silly, Teri.  I'll continue to forewarn people of the real (not exaggerated) danger of undersocialisation.  If you have issues with that information or disagree with it, please feel free to post about the studies you have read of and the widespread research which has been conducted into the fact that a socialisation period is "bunkum". :rolleyes::rolleyes:

And I'm not quite sure how someone can at one minute say it is almost "bunkum" when they have earlier said this:

"I totally agree with the puppy needing to be socialised as much and often as possible.  Regular places like supermarkets, village shopping areas, garden centres, pups/beer gardens, sitting on their lap in a park full of prams, joggers, loud kids, other dogs etc etc, on and off varying transport in differing areas & traffic - I'm familiar with the concept and 100% behind you on it"  :rolleyes::rolleyes:

123 I see it's moved up a gear from silly to ludicrous - but at least it's amusing in a peculiar fashion :rolleyes:

The world isn't flat    If only I'd had someone terrorise me into following scientific theories through my formative years I'd not be so overwhelmed by this revelation!

In all this gobbledegook you've now decided that I'm anti-socialising pups - get real, you like all those books and links, try reading the considerably less heavy duty responses I've given on this thread.  I am and always have been *for* socialisation with pups and, in view of my particular breed's super sensitivity, ongoing socialisation until 3 years old.  Funnily enough didn't need a book, lecturer, internet forum to work any of that out.   Is it not conceivable to you that many long time dog owners who know the ins and outs of every dog they've ever owned and bred on from may just pass on those multiple years of genuine *hands on* experience to their puppy buyers?

At no point have I tried to imply that you should not pass on your own knowledge and experience to any poster :rolleyes: only attempted to draw attention to the fact that (to use your own word) *scaremongering* IMO is not the best way to do it.

I happen to believe behaviourists (a small number in relation to that going about shouting it from the roof tops) have a very much needed place in the world of dogdom and I've met several of them through John Rogerson both at his home and at his lectures.  Fascinating and informative stuff a lot of it - but much of it simply common sense!

I study dogs - not books - and, as with any guardian be it of child or animal, I make (and when appropriate advise others to do similarly) every provision required to prepare them for *life*

For the avoidance of doubt I'm very definitely PRO socialisation and ANTI scaremongering - ya get me :)

regards, Teri
why do I get the feeling I should add "without prejudice" to this sign off :D  

Quoting you above:

"I think all this talk of "windows of socialisation" is verging on bunkum - I've helped get many dogs of varying ages overcome phobias and undesirable behaviour so frankly I think if behaviourists are depending on 12, 16, 20 weeks or whatever the latest recommended period is as the final cut-off point before moving in to plunder the bank accounts then it shows more about their lack of ability than it does the average dog owner!"

I'm glad that you are pro-socialising puppies and ongoing socialisation.  However, that doesn't really fit with the above statement.  How can you be pro socialisation of puppies, yet not believe in a window of socialisation?  If you don't believe in the window of socialisation, why aren't you advising people to wait until their puppies are older before being socialised?  Sorry, but something just doesn't add up here.

If you can quote me an example of my "scaremongering", instead of merely stating facts, I'd be very grateful.

"I study dogs - not books " - Well, in that case you are cutting yourself off from the knowledge of many fantastic trainers and behaviourists, world-wide, from much research which is relevant to you and to your dog and from developments which might be of interest to you.  I study both dogs and books.  There is not a divide between knowledge gained in books and knowledge gained practically.  When you are watching behavioural consultations, and discussing the practical case of the animal in front of you, the treatment plan which you decide on is often influenced by the information gained from books and from what previous behaviourists have had success with on similar cases in the past.  You belong to an online forum.  That consists of giving advice to people, through the written word. 

I can't really be bothered with his 123 :rolleyes:   Shock horror I do read lots of books - but let's not go there as you're intent on twisting and corrupting everything I write.

I do not believe a dog is a lost cause outwith the "windows of socialisation" to which you refer - and by your own admission these are variable anyway :rolleyes:

Anything further you wish to challenge me on has been done and dusted elsewhere on this thread - further comments from me it appears will only go over your head and I'd hate to think of you going into sleuth mode to get everything to "add up" (hadn't realised I was that intriguing )   Now't as strange as they say ......

Dear Emz77 and Teri,
Thank you very much for your support! We are indeed loving and responsible people and our darling AMBER will get the best we can provide for her above all unconditional love!

You're very welcome :)  Although TBF everyone is offering good advice and helpful links to make life with Amber as easy and straightforward as possible.

There are lots of great places to take Amber to which will make her more confident as she matures - as mentioned above take up loitering outside supermarkets, garden centres, DIY shops - always lots of folks coming and going who'll be desperate to lavish attention on a puppy :)  and of course there are trolleys, buggies, wheel chairs, traffic etc around too.  Even in your own garden she'll gradually become used to planes, lawnmowers, hedgecutters, builders etc in the neighbourhood - all these things make a big difference to how well a young dog copes with weird and wonderful sounds!

I make a point of taking a puppy somewhere every day simply for socialisation purposes - sometimes it's the same place 2 or 3 times a week but every little helps :)

Good luck with her and make use of the forum - we don't bite (often :D )

Socialisation is important of course but unless you've bought a totally unsocialised nervous wreck from a family line of dreadful characters I don't personally buy into the extremes of "socialisation windows" - radical thought I know

Ah but Teri, with a puppy farm puppy that HAS to be a big possibility! At one point (don't know if it has changed) 60 % of all rescues one of the regional Golden rescues got in were all from a certain pet shop, puppy farm dogs, and every single one of them had aggression problems and most had to be PTS. Remember what Roger Mugford said in one of his books, that he'd rather be in a room full of Rottweilers than left alone with ONE aggressive Golden? He did of course only get to meet the Goldens with serious problems (otherwise the owners would have had no need to see him) -and it does seem the majority of these have originated  from pet shops.

Socialisation is important of course but unless you've bought a totally unsocialised nervous wreck from a family line of dreadful characters I don't personally buy into the extremes of "socialisation windows" - radical thought I know

Oh well said!

Definitely better than nothing.  I appreciate you must be v busy, but that's what I mean by you are inevitably now playing "catch up".

Yes, she will still "learn" when she is older - but, 2 important things:

1.  There is a difference between training and socialising.  You can train a dog at any age to do anything.  Sure, it might take longer to train a dog which has never learned anything before, but it's possible.  But you can't socialise at any age.  You can't compensate for undersocialisation of a little puppy.  Now is the only time in her life you can provide her with experiences which will be good for her socialisation.  As you have limited time anyway (as you both work during the day), you must take full advantage of any time you have with her to get her out and about - now - not this weekend, forget about waiting for Saturday!  There are lots of suggestions in the socialisation link above.  It is a lot easier to socialise her properly now, than it is to end up with an adult dog which is aggressive towards other dogs or people, wants to chase skateboards or joggers and so on.  Effort now will see you reaping the rewards.

If you can't carry her due to back or arm pain, there are lots of solutions depending on how much you care what people think about you - one of the best ones is a child's pram - put puppy in and wheel her around - you can do lots of socialising like that.  Another one is a shoulder bag, to put her in so she can look out of it and carry her around - or a rucksack on the front of your body.  There are lots of solutions, you just have to be creative.

2.  Although you can train a dog to do something at any age, it will take longer to untrain behaviours which the dog has learnt are rewarding in themselves.  It is far easier to prevent problem behaviours (barking, chasing etc) from ever developing than it is to train them out of a dog which has already learnt how rewarding they are.  So, although in some ways you can train a dog to do things at any age, if there is a behaviour it is training itself to do, right now, through finding that intrinsically rewarding, that will be very hard to untrain.

Line all i have to add to the very good advice you have already recieved is that,Please dont make your dog live in the back yard,shed or crate! Bring her inside with her family,this is where she will be happiest.Dogs do not thrive in isolation.
Maybe i read your post wrong...As i understand it your dog spends most of her time in the garden and might get a pat over the baby gate every now and then :( You family is now her 'pack',let her join in on everything you and your family does and dont just throw her out in the backyard and expect her to be happy or housetrain herself,and dont make her sleep out in the shed all by herself,she's still a baby!.How can you housetrain a pup when she hardly gets to come into the house??

Ktee,
you'll notice if you read back (its really quite important to read what the OP has written if your going to place them in your verbal firing line)
     That 'Line' (the OP) has already stated in an update that she has taken onboard tips and info given and has rearranged furniture to bring her Pup inside, crated.
I can see no possible gain or benefit in using such terms as >throw her out in the Backyard<
Its only likely to cause the OP to think what a patronising post and disregard any good sensible advice you might be offering.
  Is it too much to ask to have the common decency to read what is written or asked of? quite egotisitcal other wise.

Line,
Darling!I know you have much to wade through here and much food for thought but all of it will serve you and Pupster well, Im loathed to burden you further ;) but I have a cracking article here which you can print off and have a read through (keep it in the Loo!!! thats the only place I get peace and quiet!! and dip into it)
    Its written by a fellow Norwegian Turid Rugaas and may add to your enlightenment on dogs socialising. and help you 'read' situations when pupster starts meeting other dogs.
Turid Rugaas- Calming signals, the art of survival
Hope this is helpful,good luck, keep at it and best wishes :D