Hello everyone!!
Over the past months, I have been intrigued by the mention of 'amichien bonding' and was curious to learn about it. Well I bought the book yesterday (bargain, new at £3.99!!!) and I'm hooked! I plan to start the methods today, as I have to go out this afternoon for a while! Those of you who've tried it, how well has it worked to create a sense of understanding and harmony between you and your dogs? and has anyone tried it with more than one, as I plan to try it with my two hooligans at once! and what if any problem behaviours did it ease/eliminate?
I'm just nosey!!! :D plus it'd be nice to share experiences:)
Emily

I must be going blind or senile I read the title of this post as armchair bonding, that sounds easy come to think of it Anne

LOL I wouldn't need a book for that!!! :) :) I'm already an expert ;)
Emily

Having started this topic a couple of days ago, I'm wondering if anyone might have any idea why, since starting the techniques described in the book, both Morris and Elsa seem to be reacting, but NEGATIVELY:( Elsa has wet the carpet for the first time in months, and Morris runs away as soon as we get outside, and acts really depressed in the house, not getting off his bed :( Elsa has also started whining if I so much as go to the toilet without her
replies this time, pleeeeease!
Emily

Hi Emily,

You dont mention which book you got to introduce this process to you. But in the Jan Fennell one I believe she does mention it does'nt work immediatly, and things can in fact get worse before they get better. I seem to remember they did with me. I have four dogs, I had three when I started this process, funily enough it worked a treat on two of them eventually, but I had to stop with one of them as it was upsetting him. Although the likes of Jan fennel and John fisher do seem to firmly believe it works on ALL dogs, my own personal opinion is that each dog is an individual and not all dogs seem to react the same.

As I said 2 out of 4 respond very well. I started doing this with my latest very nervous rescue dog and it really failed with her, in fact it seemed to be by doing the complete oposite I was more successful with her.

Not much help to you am I? Sorry.

If you wish to compare notes or discuss this further feel free to e-mail me. If not I will keep an eye out for you on here and see how you are getting on. I am sure there will be others out there with different opinions to mine.

Good Luck
Lynda:)

Hi Emily

I believe the reason the dogs react negatively is because, as Lynda has already said, Jan Fennell is applying pack rules in the way many trainers and behaviourists have in the past, including the late John Fisher, who ws a great supporter of the pack system in the human family pack....

However, just before he died, he carried out a very big survey over a 3 year period using student s of the Canine/Human Interface course.

To put it in a nutshell and without going into all the details, he discovered that some dogs - not all, but some - became quite simply depressed, because to a dog, somehting they have always perceived as a normal part of their day (for eg. eating at a certain time) actually becomes a punishment if it is removed or changed, especially if other things are also changed at the same time....so if say a dog is used to eating at 6pm, before its human pack, then the owner decides to follow Jan Fennell (or John Fisher <g>) and feed the dog after the family, so that maybe the dog isn't fed til 7.30pm, a sensitive dog will indeed feel almost punished and become distressed because everything it knows has changed.

It sees the family eat, all the usual environmental signs are there, but there is no reassurance for the dog.

Of course with many dogs the system may have the desired effect, but it reallydoes depend onthe dog. Having read Jan fennell, (both books) I do feel she has a blanket system and is not flexible, and i would personally not recommend her, i feel we should all study how dogs learn and about behaviour, but one system does not always work for all dogs. We need to be flexible :)

John Fisher's methods of quite a while ago now were/are very close to Jan Fennells so I am sure his survey must also applu to your situation....the weeing in the house, if not due to any other reason, is probablly because the dog is insecure.

In the survey, all dogs that were depressed did return to "normal" after the rules were relaxed.

I wonder why you wanted to follow this behaviour programme, did you feel it would particularly benefit your relationshiiop with your dogs? Or was there a more specific reason?

Hth a bit anyway :)

LINDSAY

Hi
I know Jan Fennel very well, have talked with her regards her views and training methods.
When you talk about dogs in packs,the idea is that dogs see their family as a pack and that is why Jan advises to use " pack methods" a natural thing for a dog. Some dogs which are confused, nervous etc sometimes feel they are responsible for the it's pack which means the family, some dogs are not able to take on this responsibility and would be the weaker ones of a wild pack.So the confusion begins.I think what Jan tries to do is to take away the feeling that the dog is responsible and by feeding after the family has eaten gives the impression to the dog that they are not the " Alpha" and do not have to take on responsibility, it may be distressing for the dog to begin with but if it were to break free and join a pack of dogs it would likely be that a nervous dog would get food last or near to last.
The books are excellent but you really need to talk to jan to put things into prospective.I must add that we tried her methods on one of our girls and it worked.
Obviously everyones opinion will be different and everyone has different views,which is normal and I have to say I was very sceptical re Jans methods before I spoke to her about them but now I know they work, and have a better understanding as to why.
Not wishing to pooh pooh any ones elses opinion just wanted to say I had first hand dealings with Jan and it worked for us.But I must say you really do need to speak to her or listen to one of her talks to understand fully as to the reasoning behind what she believes works.

Hi Emily
I think I have to agree with Lynda and Lindsay on this one, sure Jan does have some good ideas but I don't think you can apply them to every dog and expect the same results every time. I did start to try some of the things with my 'pack' but found it removed me from them more than giving me a closer relationship. The only bit which worked well was ignoring them until I was ready to greet them in the morning, that did stop them climbing all over me first thing, and that is the only thing we have sort of carried on, I now don't have to ignore them as they don't go so mad to start with anymore! :)
I think Jans methods are probably most helpful if you have a dog which has a particular problem, IMHO 'if ain't broke, don't fix it!'
Another good book that I'm only half way through is 'the truth about dogs' by Stephen Budiansky, it's pretty heavy stuff in places but it certainly gives you pause for thought :D

Thanks for your opinions everyone, they are certainly interesting. I started Jan's method because of Morris possibly thinking he was the 'alpha' whaen out on walks, as he would come back one out of three times when called, and occasionally growl at other dogs on the lead. Elsa seems to feel as though she is being punished, as she is a very affectionate dog, but this can get too much at times, so it may be good for her to learn only to lick when asked!!
I am also very much in favour of the 'ignoring' when meeting after separation, as Elsa tends to get a bit frantic, esp with visitors.
It's mainly when we're out that the negative effects show, as Morris will not come back at all! he will eventually stay, and sit to have his lead put on, but this is usually within feet of the car.
After posting my message, I took both to the park, and pretended to let Morris off the lead, so that when I told him to heal for a few steps, he couldn't run away as he had been previously! he seemed to respond slightly better then when I did let him off, and when he ran away I hid behind a tree ( I got some funny looks, I can tell you!:) )
we'll keep at it for a while, and see how it goes, it's just a shame the book isn't interactive!! (The Practical Dog Listener)
Emily